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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Berlin (Read 34511 times)
Fernando Semprun
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Re: Berlin
Reply #32 - 04/11/05 at 07:12:35
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Top Notch, I am surprised you still recommend that line. In my view, it is worth a surprise, as obviously Nielsen and other very strong grandmasters have suffered, but after learning the c6 + Ne8 plan white gets absolutely nothing.

The Kasparov Gambit (game 16, 1985 match) is a classic that brought Kasparov the world title (no less!) but it has been proven unsound. So many other lines. That attacking line is just good to stick in DVD's and claim that they could be an 'attacking option' against the Berlin.

That's why Kasparov tried it against Kramnik....

OTB chess admits many things. Sharp lines bringing no more than equality after both sides have negotiated a couple of pitfalls and things like KI attack against French and 2...e6 in the sicilian. As to good to play EVERYTIME....

I believe your comments on the Berlin endgame and that of others are much more to the point. As for whether kramnik would have won playing anything.... look at the games first... (Hracek-Kramnik of 4.d3 and Bonnet-Kramnik are in Shaw's book).

I currently believe it is a question of studying the nuances of the Berlin endgame. Black chances are not that great to win, so it must be boring to try that line over and over...
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Berlin
Reply #31 - 04/09/05 at 17:16:57
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Yes....but is the Open Ruy any good for black? That is the question.  Grin

Makes one wonder who is tricking whom by such a transposition. In the meantime no one here has suggested anything juicy against this Berlin menace.

Are the players of the White side here so unimaginative, or are they simply waiting to see what happens in the next game at Super GM level.

I have looked at the Berlin endgame, and I had no idea how rich it was. My study has left me with this conclusion, if both sides understand what they should be doing in this endgame, then black has to work hard just to draw. That said I'm not sure if this endgame is what amateur players of the White side should playing against their peers.

There are a myriad of interesting sidelines that should and could be exlored, I have already recommended one earlier in this thread. Someone suggested that the idea I gave earlier could be easily neutralised by a timely c6 and Ne8, this is a sound idea but I believe there is room for improvement on the Shirov vs Hracek game given in Kaufman's 'The Chess Advantage in Black n White', for instance 10.Qe2 instead of the more popular alternatives 10.b3, 10.Qf3 could be investigated, for e.g if Black now mindlessly tries the cure for all 10....Bf6 11.Re3 Ne8?? then 12.Bxh7!! check wins handily. This theme crops up a lot in this line. Another plus in favor of 10. Qe2 is that it is not mentioned in Kaufman's book, and I suspect many amateurs using it will fall blindly into the above trap.  

Kaufman also uses Socko vs Lautier to dismiss another intersting line, prematurely in my opinion. This line should black play as Lautier did is quite dangerous for him. 9.Bf4 instead of Socko's 9.Re1ch should be investigated more closely, this is looked at by kaufman and he concludes that black is better, but in my opinion his analysis there can be improved upon. Moreover, it is quite telling that in my database at least no one has cared to repeat Lautier's play.

Returning to the endgame, those players who would like to study it in more detail I can recommend the following books: The Chess Advantage in Black and White; Opening for White according to Anand - vol 1; Easy Guide to The Ruy Lopez by John Emms; Offbeat Spanish by Glen Flear. These books when studied together give a complete understanding of how this endgame should be played from both sides both in terms of analysis and themes. Even after just a cursory read you will already get a feel for the do's and dont's of this now perhaps the most fashionable endgame in chess.

I hope this post proved useful, and remember the Ruy Lopez is still by far the most pomisng 1e4 e5 Opening for White.

Regards

Top  Grin  
« Last Edit: 05/21/05 at 13:23:38 by TopNotch »  

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Re: Berlin
Reply #30 - 04/09/05 at 06:10:20
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On 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 Nf6 4 O-O Nxe4 5 d4 , Black is not compelled to play Nd6 : he can play 5...a6 , going back to Open variation ( else , White has no better)
This is recommanded  by Kevin O'Connel in his book
  
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Re: Berlin
Reply #29 - 04/08/05 at 03:40:26
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Geof: I'm not really sure all 1.e4 players can be called attacking players. I think 1.d4 is as aggressive as 1.e4. It's very hard to obtain the same type of game in every possible variation. Sometimes it's best to go for an early endgame, in other lines a sacrifice of a pawn or even an exchange gives the best chances. I think most players accept this. They may not like it or play as good in all types of positions, but to avoid certain types of positions is almost impossible.

I've always considered the Ruy Lopez more of a positional opening rather than an attacking one. White is often mostly slowly manouvering towards an attack rather than launching assaults.

The snooze-effect can backfire. If a player only plays the Berlin I think it's probable that he soon become bored with this type of game. Many other lines offer a greater variety of types of positions.
  

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Re: Berlin
Reply #28 - 03/31/05 at 06:52:23
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Wouldn't Kramnik have won those two games too with say 1.e4 Na6?
  

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Fernando Semprun
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Re: Berlin
Reply #27 - 03/31/05 at 01:12:47
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I find endgames very interesting AND like to attack, but I don't like the Berlin endgame. That pawn needs to be on e4!

Regarding 4.d3, Shaw gives a game Hracek-Kramnik that I find worrying in Starting out... Kramnik plays Bc5 and attacks in the kingside. Not very inspiring for white, I must say...

And there is also a virtuoso performance of the endgame as black in Bonnet-Kramnik. Black wins with ease...
« Last Edit: 04/08/05 at 06:20:07 by Fernando Semprun »  

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Berlin resources?
Reply #26 - 03/26/05 at 01:24:29
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I agree with Glenn that the Berlin is often very boring, but some people enjoying that sort of chess.

As for resources on the Berlin, other than the Larry Kaufman book, can anyone recommend more recent books, CDs or online treatment of the Berlin?
  
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Re: Berlin
Reply #25 - 07/17/04 at 23:38:17
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I certainly think the Berlin is a decent variation but both sides have to be familiar with the plans and nuances of the resulting positions.  If you play this way as White you simply have to be prepared.  It's also not the ideal defence  for everyone.  I for one would fall asleep not long after 14.Bb2.
  
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Berlin
Reply #24 - 07/17/04 at 22:40:08
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My personal experience confirms my confidence in the RL Berlin for Black. I am ICCF 2400, which is about equivalent to FIDE 2250. I have been playing Black Berlin Defense at W.Ch. Semifinal level now for 3 years.
   It has produced more points for me than any opening, White or Black.
  My last game vs. a 2440 ICCF player was typical.
  1 e4, e5; 2 Nf3 Nc6; 3 Bb5, Nf6; 4 0-0, Nxe4; 5 d4, Nd6; 6 Bxc6, dxc; 7 dxe, Nf5; 8 Qxd8ch, kxd8; 9 Nc3 Bd7;
10 Rd1, Kc8; 11 Ng5, Be8; 12 Nge4, b6; 13 b3, c5; 14 Bb2, Nd4; 15 Nd5?, Nxc2
  Black had an edge here and went on to outplay White in the endgame, so I won't give any further moves.
   But my point is that after 14 Bb2, the position can be hard to appraise if the White player is not deeply familiar with the nuances of the position.
   White appears to have both a very large development edge and a solid space advantage, but in my view, Black is equal or, at worst, has only the minimal minus which Black always has at the end of the opening after perfect theoretical play on both sides.
     Black's defensive position is very solid here, as his two Bs protect the key squares on the back two ranks where White might hope to penetrate.
   I used to struggle with the Black side of the RL Open Defense or Marshall Defense. For now, I am VERY comfortable as Black in the RL Berlin Defense.
  
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Re: Berlin
Reply #23 - 07/08/04 at 11:12:26
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A quick comment on the 4.Qe2 system against the Berlin, as referred to in a couple of replies on this thread. I've played this (once!) because I like the Worrall (or the Wormald) attack after 3...a6. I've found one significant difference: after 3...a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.Qe2, 5...Bc5 is inferior for Black because white can win a pawn with 6.Bxc6, 7.Nxe5 and a subsequent Nd3 hitting the bishop on c5.

In the analagous line after 3...Nf6 however, Black has an interesting resource: 4. Qe2 Bc5 (I think this is generally quite desirable for Black after an early Qe2, because white has loosened his grip on d4) 5. Bxc6 bxc6!? 6.Nxe5 Qe7 7.Nd3 Ba6! There was some interest in this line in the 90s, but black seems to be doing OK as far as I can see. White can grovel around to try to hold the pawn but Black is very active in compensation.

Questions: can anyone prove any sort of edge for White in the above line? And, if not, can anyone suggest any 5th move alternatives that promise White more than total equality?
  
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Re: Berlin
Reply #22 - 06/26/04 at 14:12:00
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I wholeheartedly concur with Geof (at least on a few key points. Firstly, Khalifman's analysis in OFWATA Vol. 1 (Opening for White According to Anand!!) is really far from convincing and 1. e4 players (myself included) don't want to reach an endgame by move 12. I really don't think he proved any White advantage and, to be honest, unless you're an endgame virtuoso I wouldn't recommend the main line for white, unless you're content with a draw. I think white has excellent practical chances in the 4. Qe2 and 4. d3 (my preference). The latter line is especialyl useful because it allows white to play in the normal Ruy Lopez style w/ c3 and an eventual d4.
  
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Geof Strayer
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Re: Berlin
Reply #21 - 06/25/04 at 11:39:12
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Oops, somehow I posted my message before I completed it. Sad  However, I have gone on long enough so I will just end by saying the following.

If you are a white player of 1.e4 and the Ruy Lopez, you should take the Berlin very seriously.  Discounting it as "inferior" may come back to haunt you, as the Berlin Endgame is not so clear (and you can lose as White and probably will if you think a win or draw is automatic) and there are imbalances (the bishop pair!) which allow Black to try to play for a win.  Moreover, your options to the Berlin Endgame (e.g., 4.d3 or 4.0-0 and 5. Re1) are probably less theoretically promising. (There is a reason why Khalifman chose the Berlin Endgame for White in his "Opening...According to Anand" series!).  Finally, the popularity of the Berlin continues to grow, and you are likely to face it with some frequency unless you decide to avoid the Ruy altogether.  (And you probably shouldn't avoid the Ruy Lopez, as studying it will teach you far more about chess than studying the King's Gambit, Vienna, Scotch, etc.) 

If you are a black player and are looking for a good practical defense to 1.e4, the Berlin has both theoretical and psychological merit, and playing it may even help your chess development by providing you with experience in a very educational endgame.  I can recommend Kaufman's book "The Chess Advantage In Black and White" as a good source of material on this endgame (although only about 1/4 of this 500 page book is devoted to a Black repertoire after 1.e4 e5), or even just taking a look at the 5 Berlin games analyzed in John Shaw's "Starting Out: the Ruy Lopez" would probably provide enough information to play the Berlin below master level, particularly if you can go online (or to your chess database, if you have one) and look at the games of Kramnik, Aleksandrov, Vallejo Pons, Nielsen, Krasenkow,etc.., on the Black side of this line.

Just my opinion.  Grin

            - Geof
  
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Geof Strayer
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Re: Berlin
Reply #20 - 06/25/04 at 11:14:26
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I am afraid I must disagree with those who seem to be suggesting that the Berlin is an "inferior" variation of the Ruy Lopez.  True, it is probably not a refutation of the Ruy Lopez, and true White MAY be able to keep an edge in the Berlin endgame with accurate play, but this is perhaps true of any defense to 1.e4.  The fact that Khalifman spends 44 (!) pages trying to prove an edge (sometimes slight) in the Berlin Endgame is, of itself, an indication of the soundness of Black's position.  And Black continues to go into the Berlin Endgame at the highest levels, and not without success....

Besides remaining theoretically acceptable, the Berlin also has a practical, psychological aspect which should be considered.  World class players aside, few players of 1.e4 are really as happy in a possibly += endgame as they are in a possibly += middlegame with attacking chances.  Since the theoretical mainline against the Berlin is just such an endgame, Black may often benefit from White's lack of comfort with his position.

My personal experience suggests that at anything below, say, IM level, playing positions like the Berlin Endgame with Black can be very effective.  In the late 1980s and early 1990's, I started playing 1...e5 in response to 1.e4 aiming, in particular, for the Breyer variation.  After I won a few games in the Black side of the Breyer (wins which had little or nothing to do with the theoretical merits of the Breyer, and more to do with the "snooze value" of the variation), many expert/master strength players in the Los Angeles area started playing the Exchange Variation of the Ruy Lopez against me, apparently with the idea that it was smart to avoid the Breyer.  At one point, in a period of a year as Black I faced 12 Exchange Variations in a row without every reaching a Closed Ruy Lopez!  After one draw and a lucky win (my opponent missed a forced winning line) against a couple of experts (2000-2199 USCF; at the time I was rated in the high 2200s), I did some fairly serious theoretical work on several different Black lines.  In my next 10 games, my score as Black in the Exchange Variation was 9.5 points! What I discovered once I had studied the Black side of the Exchange Variation was this:  most 1.e4 players (and admittedly, all of my games were against players rated from about 2000 to 2350 USCF) are not comfortable in such positions and they do not play them well.  It was not so much that I was playing the Black side  particularly well (during the same period I had a fairly miserable score on the Black side of the King's Indian), as the fact that most of my opponents played the Exhange Variation endgames at a strength at least 100-200 points beneath their rating. 

The Berlin Endgame is, of course, similar to the Exchange Variation, with the advanced Pe5 somewhat favoring Black and the Black King being unable to castle somewhat favoring White.  As noted in Glenn Snow's post, it is recommended in IM Larry Kaufman's "The Chess Advantage in Black and White" as Black's main defense to 1.e4.  Although such a "passive" repertoire choice may be offputting to some people, I personally believe that this is an extremely savvy recommendation by IM Kaufman.

First, you get the "snooze effect" described above, resulting from a lot of rabid, attacking 1.e4 players who find themselves, unhappily, in an endgame, or in a much less aggressive variation of the Closed Ruy after 4.d3.  (The 4.0-0, 5.Re

Second, the amount of theoretical work you need to do to prepare this defense (at least for play at the amateur level) is significantly less than the work needed to prepare a mainline Closed or Open Ruy Lopez.  At the same time, you do have to prepare Black defenses against non-Ruy Lopez lines, so if you later want to add other Ruy Lopez variations to your Black repertoire, you will have a lot of the work already. 

Third, by playing the Berlin at least a certain number of your games will end up in the Berlin Endgame, and I think that you can learn a lot about the endgame by playing a lot of endgames and then analyzing your games later.  (At least I know I did.)
  
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Re: Berlin
Reply #19 - 06/19/04 at 10:17:35
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Well after all that was said and done, the Berlin continues to grow in popularity at all levels  Grin

GM John Emms recently abandoned the Ruy Lopez after failing to get an advantage against new recruit IM David Howell.

So the battle against the Berlin continues.

Top  Grin
  

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Re: Berlin
Reply #18 - 05/06/04 at 14:10:55
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I couldn't agree more.  The Berlin was a match weapon Kramnik used against Kasparov...if they had a rematch I would not be suprised if it wasn't played again.

After the match Kramnik talked about bad positions he knew he could draw...

Frankly if an clubmate/opponent is so good that they can take a slightly inferior endgame like the Berlin, avoid making any mistakes, and successfully drain all of my advantage, and eventually draw me, then I would be happy that they are only playing to draw me instead of playing for the win!

Also, for the sake of creative interests I would play 6.Nxe5!? if I take up the Spanish again!
  
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