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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) the ruy lopez for black (Read 16744 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #15 - 03/19/04 at 08:45:36
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What about Bird's Defense?  Flear has written that "it is a useful weapon as it gives winning chances and (even if White is booked-up) gets close to fully equalising."  I can imagine that this wouldn't suit some players styles however.
« Last Edit: 07/17/04 at 21:04:20 by Glenn Snow »  
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alumbrado
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #14 - 03/19/04 at 04:44:13
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The Schliemann is actually OK - again White really has to know what he is doing in order to get the advantage.  On the other hand, if he does know, then it seems to me it is a fairly reliable edge.

I think the Schliemann would be more popular if it weren't for the very bad reputation of its 'cousin' the Latvian Gambit.  People tend to think that because this is unsound, all these early ...f5 pushes must be suspect.
  

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Voprak
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #13 - 03/18/04 at 20:28:22
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I play French & Dragon so I'm no expert, but I have several  strong friends (2100-2300uscf)  who swear by the "Schliemann" (3...f5)

 
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #12 - 03/18/04 at 12:00:43
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I was perhaps being a little mischievous ...  Tongue
  

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krugman
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #11 - 03/18/04 at 10:34:59
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ok, it's true that the scotch is not more dangerous than Bb5 vs the sicilian...but the 2 knights is not without venom...with 4.d3 for instance (see wins by Kramnik recently...)...
and there are a lot of tricky lines that are more tactical in nature than the anti-sicilians and as such need a lot of study...
am I wrong????
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #10 - 03/18/04 at 09:53:18
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True, but I actually think that 3.Bb5(+) in the Sicilian is as good as - or even better than - 3.d4, whereas imho anything other than the Spanish after 1...e5 is basically just inferior  8)
  

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krugman
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #9 - 03/18/04 at 09:03:23
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my own experience forces me to agree on that point Smiley
but, I think you don't get to play the lopez a lot either...
and there are lots of ennoying "sidelines" like the scotch or the bishop opening....
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #8 - 03/18/04 at 08:54:16
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Ah, but there are so many anti-Sicilians around, you hardly ever get to play a Najdorf or a Sveshnikov these days.

I occasionally try to roll out the Classical Sicilian as a surprise weapon - although admittedly it is probably as much of a surprise to me as it is to my opponent! - but you get so many Closed Sicilians not to mention the 3.Bb5(+) and 2.c3 lines, that it is hardly worth the effort of committing all that main line Rauzer and Sozin theory to memory.

Honestly, these days, if you want a surprise weapon against the Sicilian at club level, try 2.Nf3 and 3.d4 - most Black players will have very limited experience of playing the resulting positions!

However, I am in serious danger of straying off topic.  The point is that on the black side of a Lopez you are very rarely going to get bashed flat because you make one small inaccuracy.  You might get a poor position, but that is always going to be the case.
  

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krugman
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #7 - 03/18/04 at 07:32:16
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yes I agree that it might be better to play some of the sidelines as some of them only are += and white might not know them as well as the mainlines...but I think the Marshall still look the best bet as the anti-marshall are not terrifying...
but my point is that, in the sicilian, say, the najdorf and the sveshnikov, white doesn't seem to be able to prove an edge for the moment...
I know an assesment of += doesn't mean that much, but...
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #6 - 03/18/04 at 05:57:22
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I have been thumbing fairly extensively through the Khalifman book (OFWATA2) over the last few days and it is true that at first glance this can be fairly depressing reading for Black - but a lot of the positions Khalifamn gives as += are still very full of play and Black is not without counterchances.

To play these positions without allowing Black to free himself (in fact, even getting to these positions is not easy) requires accuracy and patience on White's part. 
Furthermore, I would draw your attention to some of the rarer side-lines, in particular the Archangel/Møller lines (see my separate thread on these).  Here, too, there are a lot of += assessments which may be objectively accurate but are not necessarily easy to demonstrate in practice, and this includes quite a lot of untested analysis, which is bound to have some holes somewhere.

All in all, I don't think Black should start thinking about giving up on 1...e5 just yet!
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #5 - 03/18/04 at 03:58:44
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The main purpose of the 8.h3 Bb7 9.d3 d6 10.a3 anti-Marshall is precisely to preserve the light-squared bishop for a future kingside attack.
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #4 - 03/17/04 at 16:09:55
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No board is in front of me, but in some positions where white plays slowly na5 gaining the bishop pair is an option.
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #3 - 03/17/04 at 10:31:03
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Kaspy & Anand haven't much success to win with the 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.h3 Bb7 9.d3 d6 10.a3 setup.

so 10. a4 is a better try? as in http://www.cannes-echecs.org/fichiers/sectionechecs/CT-1214.pdf
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #2 - 03/16/04 at 15:11:38
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The anti-Marshall line given by Khalifman is the currently fashionable 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.h3 Bb7 9.d3 d6 10.a3.
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #1 - 03/16/04 at 14:46:38
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I'm certainly no expert on this, but have they cracked the Marshall or have a good way to avoid it?
  
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