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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) the ruy lopez for black (Read 16449 times)
IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #30 - 06/16/05 at 14:12:19
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I would recommend Bird's Defence, too, against the Ruy Lopez - It is, in my opinion, heavily underestimated.

And I would back my words with variations, too Smiley
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #29 - 04/11/04 at 13:23:09
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The Paris variation is dealt with in Kassiber magazine nos 14 and 15.

I played it for a year and never lost in over the board play. It usually gains about fifteen minutes on the clock.
However the following game was most unpleasant. An improvement is needed.



[Event "IECG-CUP, Preliminary, CP-2003-p-00050"]
[Site "IECG"]
[Date "2003.09.28"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Doblas Francisco Javier, Rubio"]
[Black "Flude, David"]
[Result "1-0"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O b5 6.Bb3 Bc5
7.Re1( watch the transposition) Ng4 8.Rf1 Nf6 9.c3 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxe5 Nxe5
12.d4 O-O 13.dxe5 Bb7 14.Nd2 Nf4 15.Nf3 Qxd1 16.Rxd1 Nh3+
17.gxh3 Bxf3 18.Rd7 Rae8 19.Bf4 Bb6 20.Re1 Bc6 21.Rd2 h6
22.h4 Re7 23.Kf1 Rfe8 24.h5 Kf8 25.Bc2 Bf3 26.Bd1 Bc6
27.Bg4 a5 28.Bg3 b4 29.f4 bxc3 30.bxc3 1-0
  

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MNb
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #28 - 03/25/04 at 17:52:57
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Craig Evans seems to be in a gloomy, pessimistic mood. I can recommend lots of Spielmann games with real hot blooded chess.
Against the Bishop's Opening: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 c6!? with the intention d5.
Against the Vienna: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 Bc5 4.Bg2 Nc6 5.Nge2 d6 6.o-o (6.Na4) h5!? though from an objective point of view 3...d5 4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Bg2 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bd6 is best.
The most dynamic way to meet the Scotch is 4...Qh4 of course, but I am not convinced of it's strength.
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #27 - 03/25/04 at 14:35:41
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Against the vienna/bishops opening, 2...Nf6 is really the only move for someone looking to be the aggressor as black. Of course, if 3.d3 (in the bishops opening) or 3.g3 (in the vienna) then you're resigned to a boringish position. I play the latvian if I know someone plays the scotch, otherwise I play the ...Bc5 lines, as it's the best chance of active play.

Real chess stopped being played with the end of the Morphy era in my opinion Cheesy

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krugman
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #26 - 03/25/04 at 05:08:00
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one more question: what do u play vs the bishop opening and the vienna??? because I don't like Emms' recommendations inb "play the open games"...
and vs the scotch???
I am looking mainly for dynamic systems...
  
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krugman
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #25 - 03/24/04 at 15:37:26
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hey Craig you seem to be a heck of an agressor  Wink
and judging by other posts, also with white!!!
if I start to play 1...e5, I should try my defences vs you!!!
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #24 - 03/24/04 at 06:18:08
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Well I play the 3.Nxe5 Nc6 lines of the latvian, so I get to avoid all that unpleasantness... while it may not be sound, it's much harder to refute OTB than the 3...Qf6 lines, which give white a pleasant choice of ways to comfortable advantage.
Still, the edge that white gets in the main lines is playable against if you know what you're doing, the latvian is a playable opening. I prefer to live on the edge a little!

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Craig Grin
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #23 - 03/23/04 at 15:09:28
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well, by what I know, even if Kosten's bokk on the latvian is good, he still finds that black can't equalize in most lines (above all the 4.Nc4 7.d3 line...)
do the latvian aficionados have some different opinions???
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #22 - 03/23/04 at 10:15:31
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Yes, I'm guessing he'll go with the in vogue ...Nf6 lines. It's about time for an up-to-date account of the schliemann anyway.

I'll be more intrigued to see what he's recommending against the KG, if he's looking for an attacking position with black then ...g5 almost has to be the move.

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Craig  Grin
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #21 - 03/23/04 at 09:41:25
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On the subject of the Schliemann, I understand that Batsford will shortly be publishing "A Dynamic Black Opening Repertoire" by Chris Baker (an English IM I think), in which he will advocate the Schliemann:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/071348828X/ref=sr_aps_books_1_3/202-454...

Should be interesting to see what he has to offer against 4.Nc3...
  

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CraigEvans
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #20 - 03/23/04 at 09:34:59
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Quote:
Throughout the years, "agressive" lines for Black have slowly faded out of popularity: The Elephant Gambit, Latvian Gambit, Schliemann, Archangel, and Zaitsev lines have all faded in popularity over the last decade.


As an aggressor, possibly more so with the black pieces than the white ones, I am inclined to view the waning popularity of some of these lines as just fashion. While the elephant has indeed become all but extinct, I was under the impression that the Latvian, partly due to Mr Kosten's books and partly due to the work of Elburg, Grivianis and other afficionados, was a growing opening as people started to see it wasn't unsound, or at least not completely unplayable. With the schliemann, I certainly view it as a matter of fashion and not that white is guaranteed a large advantage. Certainly 4.Nc3 seems the only way of gaining the advantage (any prepared black player should be able to survive the other lines and at least equalise, imho), and even then I think while white's position is better, it is no better than it is in a main line Moller or Breyer, for example, and black has plenty of opportunity for counterplay.

I dont think it is time to write off the Schliemann just yet I'm afraid, in decades to come it may well find favour once again in the higher echelons.

As for Krugman's line, after 7.Nxe5 I dont see the point in black's bold thrust. How would you continue as black in this position?

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Craig  Grin
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #19 - 03/23/04 at 05:11:03
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thx amateurdragoneer for your input!
Anyway, I was wondering whether somebody knew this variation that someone talked about in another topic

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bb5 a6 .
4. Ba4 Nf6
5. 0-0 Bc5
6. c3 6....d5

it is called the Paris variation, and doesn't seem to be mentionned in Khalifman's book so it could be a good secret weapon...
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #18 - 03/21/04 at 17:06:55
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I agree with Glen. 9. Nbd2 is an excellent way to avoid the Dilworth and the Dilworth is precisely the reason why many players, including Kasparov, have switched to 9. Nbd2 as their main weapon against the Open Ruy Lopez. With regard to the Schliemann, I think it's main success over the years has been to the fact that it, like it's close relative, the Latvian Gambit, is generally a surprise for white players. However, a well-prepared player will score very highly with White against the Schliemann and I firmly believe that white should get the upper hand. My general feeling is that Black usually cannot get very agressive early on if he plays 1...e5 because the symmetrical structure favors white since he is ahead in development and, because he moves first, he is effectively a tempo up. Throughout the years, "agressive" lines for Black have slowly faded out of popularity: The Elephant Gambit, Latvian Gambit, Schliemann, Archangel, and Zaitsev lines have all faded in popularity over the last decade. So long as White knows the main lines and sticks with them. This does not mean that 1...e5 is a bad opening, far from it. It is just that it seems to be an opening balanced between the solid structure of, for example, the Caro-Kann and the unbalanced positions of the Sicilian and that Black must walk a fine line between solid, positonal play and active play and that if he leans too much to either side, he will be squeezed positonally because of his passivity, or crushed for playing a premature attack. However, if Black is able to walk the tight-rope, then he can often get a strong attack if white overextends is is not cautious enough or can get a positional advantage if White becomes too passive. The only problem is that I feel that White has a bit more flexibility in his approaches while Black is pretty much obliged to focus his attention on preventing White's attacking/positional ambitions early on and that is not something everybody can do. It is probably best suited for those with positional yet active styles, such as Karpov and Anand who, coincidentally, have also wielded the Caro-Kann which may indicate a similarity in the way that black must be able to play the opening phase of the game. If you fit that mold, then 1...e5 is probably an excellent choice. If you are a very calm, quiet, positional player, then you probably want to lean more towards a Caro-Kann while if you are more aggressive you should probably seek a French or Sicilian. With regard to specific variations of the Ruy Lopez, I would have to say that the most solid ones are probably the Berlin, Open Variation, Chigorin Variation, and Marshall are probably Black's most solid options.

As for Khalifman's evaluations, having read through OFWATA Vol. 1 and skimmed through Vol. 2, I have to say that Khalifman's evaluations, though he supports them well, are probably a tad bit biased (as evaluations usually are in repertoire books). And even the Ruy Lopez does lead to a slight white advantage in EVERY line (which I find difficult to believe is possible for an opening that has been around for 400+ years), I agree with alumbrado that Khalifman offers many interesting suggestions that don't really have a lot of practical outings at the top levels of play and that even if a line is +=, it is definitely not easy for White to prove a CLEAR advantage, let alone win the game (having played the Sicilian Dragon from both sides of the board for many years, I can certainly testify to this!!!!).
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #17 - 03/21/04 at 12:29:22
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I think a good way to avoid the Dilworth is the popular Zaitsev idea (after 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 d4) 11.Ng5!?.
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #16 - 03/21/04 at 10:55:03
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I would suggest that, besides the schliemann, the Dilworth attack is worth looking at. The Dilworth is characterised by 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.c3 Bc5 10.Nbd2 f6 11.Bc2 Nxf2!?. It leads to an unbalanced position, where black scores quite well. If he learns the theory available, and how to play the endgames that arise with correct play from white, then he will gain gift points over the board from unrepared white players. Very few ways for white to avoid these positions offer white any edge as far as I'm aware, such as 6.Re1, 9.Qe2, etc., although undoubtedly black has to be prepared for them.

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #15 - 03/19/04 at 08:45:36
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What about Bird's Defense?  Flear has written that "it is a useful weapon as it gives winning chances and (even if White is booked-up) gets close to fully equalising."  I can imagine that this wouldn't suit some players styles however.
« Last Edit: 07/17/04 at 21:04:20 by Glenn Snow »  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #14 - 03/19/04 at 04:44:13
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The Schliemann is actually OK - again White really has to know what he is doing in order to get the advantage.  On the other hand, if he does know, then it seems to me it is a fairly reliable edge.

I think the Schliemann would be more popular if it weren't for the very bad reputation of its 'cousin' the Latvian Gambit.  People tend to think that because this is unsound, all these early ...f5 pushes must be suspect.
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #13 - 03/18/04 at 20:28:22
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I play French & Dragon so I'm no expert, but I have several  strong friends (2100-2300uscf)  who swear by the "Schliemann" (3...f5)

 
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #12 - 03/18/04 at 12:00:43
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I was perhaps being a little mischievous ...  Tongue
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #11 - 03/18/04 at 10:34:59
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ok, it's true that the scotch is not more dangerous than Bb5 vs the sicilian...but the 2 knights is not without venom...with 4.d3 for instance (see wins by Kramnik recently...)...
and there are a lot of tricky lines that are more tactical in nature than the anti-sicilians and as such need a lot of study...
am I wrong????
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #10 - 03/18/04 at 09:53:18
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True, but I actually think that 3.Bb5(+) in the Sicilian is as good as - or even better than - 3.d4, whereas imho anything other than the Spanish after 1...e5 is basically just inferior  8)
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #9 - 03/18/04 at 09:03:23
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my own experience forces me to agree on that point Smiley
but, I think you don't get to play the lopez a lot either...
and there are lots of ennoying "sidelines" like the scotch or the bishop opening....
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #8 - 03/18/04 at 08:54:16
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Ah, but there are so many anti-Sicilians around, you hardly ever get to play a Najdorf or a Sveshnikov these days.

I occasionally try to roll out the Classical Sicilian as a surprise weapon - although admittedly it is probably as much of a surprise to me as it is to my opponent! - but you get so many Closed Sicilians not to mention the 3.Bb5(+) and 2.c3 lines, that it is hardly worth the effort of committing all that main line Rauzer and Sozin theory to memory.

Honestly, these days, if you want a surprise weapon against the Sicilian at club level, try 2.Nf3 and 3.d4 - most Black players will have very limited experience of playing the resulting positions!

However, I am in serious danger of straying off topic.  The point is that on the black side of a Lopez you are very rarely going to get bashed flat because you make one small inaccuracy.  You might get a poor position, but that is always going to be the case.
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #7 - 03/18/04 at 07:32:16
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yes I agree that it might be better to play some of the sidelines as some of them only are += and white might not know them as well as the mainlines...but I think the Marshall still look the best bet as the anti-marshall are not terrifying...
but my point is that, in the sicilian, say, the najdorf and the sveshnikov, white doesn't seem to be able to prove an edge for the moment...
I know an assesment of += doesn't mean that much, but...
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #6 - 03/18/04 at 05:57:22
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I have been thumbing fairly extensively through the Khalifman book (OFWATA2) over the last few days and it is true that at first glance this can be fairly depressing reading for Black - but a lot of the positions Khalifamn gives as += are still very full of play and Black is not without counterchances.

To play these positions without allowing Black to free himself (in fact, even getting to these positions is not easy) requires accuracy and patience on White's part. 
Furthermore, I would draw your attention to some of the rarer side-lines, in particular the Archangel/Møller lines (see my separate thread on these).  Here, too, there are a lot of += assessments which may be objectively accurate but are not necessarily easy to demonstrate in practice, and this includes quite a lot of untested analysis, which is bound to have some holes somewhere.

All in all, I don't think Black should start thinking about giving up on 1...e5 just yet!
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #5 - 03/18/04 at 03:58:44
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The main purpose of the 8.h3 Bb7 9.d3 d6 10.a3 anti-Marshall is precisely to preserve the light-squared bishop for a future kingside attack.
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #4 - 03/17/04 at 16:09:55
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No board is in front of me, but in some positions where white plays slowly na5 gaining the bishop pair is an option.
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #3 - 03/17/04 at 10:31:03
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Kaspy & Anand haven't much success to win with the 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.h3 Bb7 9.d3 d6 10.a3 setup.

so 10. a4 is a better try? as in http://www.cannes-echecs.org/fichiers/sectionechecs/CT-1214.pdf
  
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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #2 - 03/16/04 at 15:11:38
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The anti-Marshall line given by Khalifman is the currently fashionable 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.h3 Bb7 9.d3 d6 10.a3.
  

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Re: the ruy lopez for black
Reply #1 - 03/16/04 at 14:46:38
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I'm certainly no expert on this, but have they cracked the Marshall or have a good way to avoid it?
  
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the ruy lopez for black
03/15/04 at 16:17:41
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Hi everyone!

peering through the new book from Khalifman, one gets a depressing feeling for the black side of the spanish: solid in the main lines but with a small edge for white and not a lot of counterplay, and in sidelines a nice edge for white if he knows his theory...
maybe after all, the Najdorf is best Smiley)))
What do you guys think????
  
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