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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7? (Read 5969 times)
Paul Hopwood
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Re: What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
Reply #12 - 12/05/04 at 10:13:08
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With apologies to Glenn Snow for disappearing from this thread, unfortunately I completely forgot about it, whoops!

I would refer to the thread I have started on Experts vs. The Sicilian.  I haven't had a good look through The Dragon chapter yet, but I did notice that Golubev did give 9...Bd7 the dreaded '?!'. 

No doubt further discussions will recommence shortly when more people get a copy of the book!

Regards

Paul Hopwood
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
Reply #11 - 11/20/04 at 23:31:08
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This variation had been proving to be a nice speed chess weapon for me until I ran into: 9.0-0-0 Bd7 10.g4 Rc8 11.Kb1 Ne5 12.Be2.  This position, which can of course be reached by many different move orders, (and I'm not really sure if it matters which order White plays g4,Kb1,and Be2) has me stumped.  Ward mentions this position in the notes to one of his game annotations but gives no recommendation as to what Black should play.  12...Qa5 looks bad after 13.Nb3 and g5.  The gambit 12...b5 looks unsound after 13.Ndxb5.  I'm not really sure what else Black can try.  I suppose there is 12...h5, but that looks pretty bad to me.  Any ideas for Black here or does this bury the variation?

After writing the above I checked Chessbases' online database for possibilities.  All of the moves mentioned above have been tried including 12...Nc4?! (a normal 9.Bc4 with White having the very useful Kb1).  I think Black's best practical chance is 12...b5 13.Nxb5 a6 (13...Nc4 14.Bxc4 Rxc4 15.e5) 14.Nd4 Nc4 15.Bxc4 Rxc4 which most likely doesn't give Black full compensation, but is very unclear and at least White's King is on the open b-file.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
Reply #10 - 10/24/04 at 08:27:21
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After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0–0 9.0–0–0 Bd7 10.g4 Rc8 11.h4 Ne5 12.Kb1 h5

[quote]To me 13 g5 Nh7/ Ne8 14 f4 Ng4 15 Bg1 looks good enough and quite risk free for white..., Losetowin [/quote]

I haven't actually looked at this but Ward gives 13.g5 Ne8 14.f4 Ng4 15.Bg1 e5 16.fxe5 Bxe5 in his WWTD2.
  
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Losetowin
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Re: What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
Reply #9 - 10/24/04 at 03:28:57
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To me 13 g5 Nh7/ Ne8 14 f4 Ng4 15 Bg1 looks good enough and quite risk free for white..
  
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Re: What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
Reply #8 - 10/15/04 at 14:02:45
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Where are you Paul Hopwood?   :)  Started looking at this variation again and was fascinated by the tactical possibilities.  As the other 9.0-0-0 Bd7 variations seem to fail, only the ...h5 variations seem to offer any hope.

After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0–0 9.0–0–0 Bd7 10.g4 Rc8 11.h4 Ne5 12.Kb1 h5 13.gxh5 Nxh5 14.Rg1 (I don't understand Defermian's 14.Be2 because of the reply 14...Ng3 with the idea of simply 15...Nxe3.  I suppose the Knight was helping to keep the h-pawn at bay.) 14...Rxc3!, I started looking at (with Fritz's help) 15.Qxc3 Nxf3 variation.  This doesn't look like it should work for White but so far I can't find a complete answer for Black.  Of course the position is quite complicated and my computer isn't so fast.  Anyway, any updates on this variation?
  
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Paul Hopwood
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Re: What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
Reply #7 - 04/18/04 at 08:37:58
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In my analysis, black just ends up playing a quick ...Rc8 and ...Nf6 with good play.  Incidentally the improvement with ...Qa5 wasn't mine, but rather that of my co-author Scott Fraser.  Creative achievement where it's due!

The latest attempt seems to be 13 gh gh 14 Be2 as played by Nick De-Firmian.  So the next new door opens!

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Paul Hopwood
  
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Re: What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
Reply #6 - 03/27/04 at 14:05:28
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That is an interesting variation, but after 13.gxh5 Nxh5 14.Rg1 Rxc3 15.bxc3 Qa5 16.Be2 looks critical.  Does Black have enough play after this?  I hope so, it would be nice for 9...Bd7 to be playable.  It contains so many pitfalls for White and is especially useful when playing against weaker opposition.
  
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Paul Hopwood
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Re: What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
Reply #5 - 03/27/04 at 10:01:52
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I'm not so sure that 9...Bd7 is dead and buried.  I agree that 12...Qa5 13 Be2! looks good, but just as one door closes another one opens!

I think both Tiviakov's 12...h5 and even 11...h5 have a lot going for them.

Firstly in Tiviakov's line after 13. gxh5 Nxh5 14 Rh1 Rxc3!?  (14...Kh7?! come on!, this is The Dragon!) bxc3 and now 15 bxc3 Qa5! (rather better than the recommended 15...Qb6+? which is just good for white) and black seems to have good counterplay and there are some amazing ideas such as 16 f4 Nf3! 17 Nxf3 Be6! 

Similarly I am currently analysing 11...h5 and will present my findings shortly.  Most books just give a line by Sapi and Schneider, but I think there are a few things wrong with it!
  
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Re: What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
Reply #4 - 03/18/04 at 20:07:33
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With the exception of one or two very weak players, most people who play this system know that the knight does not go to c4 BECAUSE white gains several tempi. Instead, the knight usually stays on f5 to pressurize f3, protect g4, and possibly facilitate complimentary or separate sacrifices on f3, e4, or g4.
  
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Re: What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
Reply #3 - 03/18/04 at 18:45:54
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After 9.o-o-o Bd7 White wins one or even two tempi
compared to 9.Bc4 Ld7 if Black executes the manoeuvre
Nc6-e5-c4. Maybe this is the simple logic of an amateur,
but it still looks valid.
  

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Re: What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
Reply #2 - 03/18/04 at 07:47:08
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I have used nunns/gallagher book to navigate vrs the sicilian. I have been busted so many times in the 10... nxd4 11 bxd4 be6 in internet blitz line because ididnt know that the qg5 move was antiquated and black got good play with b5 pawn sac. Nice to see how you insiders considers the line and afterall find 9.0-0-0 as a challenge.
  
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Re: What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
Reply #1 - 03/16/04 at 19:19:00
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To add on:

12...h5 13. gxh5 Nxh5 14. Rg1 Kh7 (this is probably the critical point of the variation, though I don't know if anything else is really better. There is no way to start a counterattack and if the king stays on g8 then f4-f5 creates problems on the g-file. Then again, it also imprisons the knight on h5  because White cannot be allowed to open the h-file). 15. Nd5! and already Fritz says this is clearly better for white and I might even say that white has an easily won game. White's basic attacking plan is simple: advance the f-pawn. Once the Ne5 moves away then White can stick his bishop or queen on d3 when Black has problems on the g-file, the b1-h7 diagonal, and has a knight that is stuck on h5 because the further advance of White's h-pawn would be devastating. White's attack is so strong it practically plays itself.
  
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What's Wrong with 9. O-O-O Bd7?
03/16/04 at 18:57:31
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This was Patrick's question in the "9. O-O-O Critical Line..." Topic so here's what Fritz and I came up with along with WWTSD2. First, a note. I want to make it clear that the move order presented below (10. g4) is definitely the most accurate as it pretty much rules out an early ...h5 by black. 12...b5 is definitely bad (see below) and Ward gave alternatives in 12...Qa5 and 12...h5. I didn't analyze ...h5 (although it looks horrible to me), but 12...Qa5 is looked at in a fair amount of detail below and it would appear that 13. Be2 (which Ward said didn't look "that frightening"), is quite problematic for black. (Main line is in bold)

[b]1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0–0 9.0–0–0 Bd7 10.g4 Rc8 11.h4 Ne5[/b] [11...Qa5 12.Kb1±] [b]12.Kb1 Qa5[/b] [12...b5 13.h5 Nxf3 (13...b4 14.Nd5±) 14.Nxf3 Bxg4 15.Be2 b4 16.Nd5 Nxe4 17.Qxb4 Rb8 18.Qxe4 Rxb2+ 19.Kc1 Bf5 20.Qxf5! gxf5 21.h6 Rxa2 22.hxg7 Re8±] [b]13.Be2! Nc4[/b] [13...Rxc3 14.Qxc3 Qxc3 15.bxc3 Rc8 16.Kb2±] [b]14.Bxc4 Rxc4 15.h5 Rfc8 16.hxg6 hxg6[/b][16...fxg6 17.g5 Nh5 18.Nb3±] [b]17.Nb3 Qc7 18.Bh6±[/b]

Unless I/Fritz missed something huge, this looks very convincing to me. Until then, I'll be checking out 12...h5 (although I'm not that optimistic)  :'(
  
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