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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Schliemann Ruy Lopez (Read 26700 times)
Willempie
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #18 - 04/04/06 at 07:11:52
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HgMan wrote on 12/26/04 at 20:03:46:
After 4 d3, Black might be best served by maintaining the central tension for the time-being with 4 ... Nf6 and targeting f2 (playing a kind of King's Gambit in reverse).  Moves like Bc5, Qe8-g6/h5, Nf6-h5-f4, and even Rf8-f6-g6/h6 might be in order.  It seems as though Black can focus on the kingside in what could turn into a strong attack if White plays passively.

In that case white could play something along the lines of 0-0, exf5 followed by d4, which makes black's king a bit airy.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #17 - 04/03/06 at 17:08:06
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After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 cant see anything wrong with the simple 4... fe4 5.Ne4 Nf6 .... 6.Qe2 then looks best and black can reply maybe with either 6...d5 or 6...Qe7

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HgMan
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #16 - 12/26/04 at 21:54:50
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I should stress that I don't feel comfortable enough with the Schliemann to defend its honor come hell or high water, but it's a potent weapon in blitz chess and against unsuspecting opposition.  I've racked up more points with Black using the Schliemann than just about any other option, though I'm inclined to agree with Markovich that it might be just south of respectable.  Worth some study and worth trotting out from time to time, though...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Markovich
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #15 - 12/26/04 at 20:08:42
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What about the seemingly unassuming line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3!?......Shouldn't Black fear this  continuation as well? It certainly has a lot more sting than might first appear.  Grin  

Opinions welcome.

Top  Grin


I played the Schliemann in many postal and OTB games with excellent results, until I became convinced that it was unsound.  The Schliemann is a brilliant idea which simply asserts, "The Spanish bishop is misplaced," but it is wrong.

Life is not exactly rosy for Black after 4. d3, but I think if he plays 4...fxe4! it becomes +=, no more than White's birthright.  And the semi-open f-file does confer upon Black some winning chances.  If White plays 4. d4, Black is the one with most of the winning chances.

The only serious challenge to the Schliemann is 4. Nc3.  The main line, and the one I mostly played, was 4...fxe4  5. Nxe4 d5  6. Nxe5 dxe4  7. Nxc6 Qg5  8. Qe2 Nf6.  The theoretical main line runs 9. f4 and again I think it's just +=.  But instead 9. Nxh7+! Bd7  10. Bxd7+ Nxd7  11. f4!! (resisting the tempation to play 11. Qxe4+ Kd8, which offers Black great counterplay) refutes Black's entire concept.  Black's best is 11...Qc5  12. Nb5 Qxc2, but now White has 13. d4! with a perfectly safe extra pawn.  I spent a lot of time preparing 12...0-0-0 (instead of 12...Qxc2), but when a chess buddy of mine played it armed with my analysis, he ran into 13. Nc3 Nf6  14 a4! (I foresaw only 14. Nxe4 Qxc2 and Black has substantial compensation) and simply running the a-pawn turns out to be very, very strong.

I am not persuaded that Black's 4th or 5th move alternatives are any good, so I have dropped this defense.  I am willing to skate close to the edge, but not to play a move that I believe to be unsound.

It's a terrible pity.  I would play this system again if someone could prove to me that it were sound.
  

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HgMan
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #14 - 12/26/04 at 20:03:46
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After 4 d3, Black might be best served by maintaining the central tension for the time-being with 4 ... Nf6 and targeting f2 (playing a kind of King's Gambit in reverse).  Moves like Bc5, Qe8-g6/h5, Nf6-h5-f4, and even Rf8-f6-g6/h6 might be in order.  It seems as though Black can focus on the kingside in what could turn into a strong attack if White plays passively.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Mr.A
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #13 - 12/26/04 at 17:19:09
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There is an article about the 4.d3 line in the latest NIC Yearbook (No. 73), which also states that things are far from rosy for black in that line. The main idea for white is the manouevre Qe2-c4, after black exchanged on e4. It is even considered a simpler way for white to get an advantage versus the Schliemann. I was not able to find an improvement for black (although I spent only very little additional time on the line after working through the article). Does anybody know a good antidote to 4.d3 ?

Regards
A.
  
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #12 - 12/26/04 at 14:24:44
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What about the seemingly unassuming line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3!?......Shouldn't Black fear this  continuation as well? It certainly has a lot more sting than might first appear.  Grin 

Opinions welcome.

Top  Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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HgMan
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #11 - 12/24/04 at 17:46:16
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I think it's fair to say that 4 ... fxe4 is the mainline and Black's strongest, even if s/he can salvage the position after 4 ... Nf6.  Play typically continues: 4 ... fxe4 5 Nxe4 d5 6 Nxe5 dxe4 7 Nxc6 Qg5, which was revived in a famous World Championship match game by Jon Speelman against Jan Timman.  For aggressive players, these kinds of lines might be attractive to players with the Black pieces as a secondary line against the Lopez.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #10 - 03/25/04 at 04:15:41
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thx Mnb for the line I will have a look at it!!!
  
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MNb
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #9 - 03/24/04 at 18:39:35
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So even Craig Evans seems to underestimate 4...Nf6.
In the Khalifman line I would prefer 8...Nxb5 9.Nxb5 d5 10.Nbd4 Ng4!? with some compensation.
  

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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #8 - 03/24/04 at 06:21:00
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I would think an improvement is 4...fxe4, I was under the impression that this had always been regarded the correct move for black? The 4...Nf6 lines look playable, but nowhere near as difficult for white to gain the advantage.
  

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krugman
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #7 - 03/24/04 at 02:23:31
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ok, so here is khalifman's main line:
1.e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3.Bb5 f5
4.Nc3 Nf6
5.exf5 Nd4
6.Nxe5 Bc5
7. 0-0 0-0
8. Nf3 c6
9. Ba4 Nxf3+
10.Qxf3 d5
11. Bb3 Ne8
12.g4! g6
13.d3 gxf5
14.g5 Nc7
15. Kh1 Ne6
16. Ne2 f4
17. Rg1 and he gives a nice edge for white...
I have only shown his main line...any improvements????
  
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MNb
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #6 - 03/23/04 at 19:13:41
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The piece sac 4.d4  fxe4 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.dxe5 c6 7.Nc3 cxb5 8.Nxe4 is not considered being totally correct. The main line is 8...d5 9.exd6 Nf6 but Black might also consider 8...Nh6 9.Bxh6 Qh4.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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MNb
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #5 - 03/23/04 at 19:10:22
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What does Khalifman recommend after 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.exf5 Bc5!? with the idea 6.Nxe5 Nd4 or 6.o-o o-o 7.Nxe5 Nd4!? This is an underrated line. It is hard for White to prove a convincing advantage, but maybe not impossible.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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krugman
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Re: Schliemann Ruy Lopez
Reply #4 - 03/23/04 at 14:43:19
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what do u play after 4...Nf6 5.exf5????
because Khalifman gives an nice edge for white in every line (ie, 5...Nd4, 5...e4...)
I would really like to know more about the schliemann!!!
  
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