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Normal Topic C10: Winawer - 3...h6!? (Read 3752 times)
Wonderer
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Re: Winawer - 3...h6!?
Reply #6 - 04/26/04 at 09:08:45
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Well, he had some articles in the swedish corr magazine SSKK, as I mention in the Daring defences section.

There were probably some on the 'Space French' as well, but I don't know which issues etc. I had some email discussions with the man himself some years ago, particularly about Jupiter and the Scorpion benoni.

I hope he doesn't mind if I cut and paste a small part of the analysis Cheesy

So, over to Rolf Martens:

"The Space French Defence (SF Defence) is the UltraHypermodernCounterAttack (UHCA) method for black of treating the French.

Classical French.

Against 4.Bg5, this method would use (my then really clearly improved) Breslau Variation, 4.-,Be7 5.e5 Ng8, the modification being 6.Be3 Nh6 (Mare Nimzowitsch Var., system 10) and one point, necessary to make Nh6 into an actual improvement here, being the M.N. Gambit, if now 7.Bxh6 gxh6 8.Qh5: 8.-,c5 9.dxc5 Bxc5 10.Qxh6 Bxf2+ (11.Kxf2 Qb6+ etc).

Planet X, can arise not only by

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Ng8 (Classical) but also by
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Bf8 (Winaver)

4.-,Be7 here, the Moon Variation (containing as one intended point 5.Qg4 g6, plan b6 + c5, or plan Nc6 etc)

Mars Variation      

     1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Nh6*

     G. Heidenfeld, South Africa, 1950s; rediscovered:
     G. Kajdanov, Moscow, 1970s;
               RM, 1984

     Plan: f6. Points include 6.Bxh6 gxh6, plan Bg7 + f6 + 0-0; 6.Bb5 Qb6; (RM, '90s:) 6.dxc5 Qc7

Phobos Variation

     1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 a6*

     RM, 1985 Plan: Nh6. For use as arising by transposition from the improved O'Kelly Sicilian, 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 a6 3.c3 e6 etc

Venus Variation

     1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.Nf3 cxd4 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.0-0 Nh6*

     P.-O. Höllfors, Sweden, 1962; rediscovered, RM, 1985

Proxima Centauri Variation

     1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.Qg4 cxd4 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Bd3 Qa5+* 7.Bd2 Nh6*
RM, 1990s. Points include 8.Qg3 Qb6 9.0-0 f6; 8.Qf4 Qb6 9.0-0 f6 10.exf6 Nf7


Jupiter Variation

     1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nc6 4.Ngf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ng4*

     RM, 1985 Plan: f6.


Saturn Variation

     1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nc6 4.Ngf3 Nf6 5.e5 Nh5*

     RM, 1985
NB: Probably FAILS to 6.g4 Nf4 7.Nb3 Ng6 8.h4 Be7 9.h5 Nh4 10.Nxh4 Bxh4 11.g5 Bxg5 12.Qg4 Bxc1 13.Qxg7.

Mercury Variation      

     1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nc6 4.c3 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Qd5 6.Bd3 e5 7.Qe2 Be6*

     RM, 1986

     Plan: 0-0-0 + exd4

Gemini Variation ("Planet of the Apes")

     1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nd7* 4.Ngf3 Ngf6*

     RM, 1986

     Points include 5.e5 Ng4 6.Bd3 c5 7.c3 g6, plan Bg7 + f6.
     NB NOT 7.-,f6 8.Ng5.

11.      Neptune Variation

     1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Bd2 Nc6*

     (RM, 1985); already known to traditional theory


12.      Uranus Variation

     1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Nge2 Nc6*

     (RM, 1985); already known to traditional theory

     Note 1: Suggestion also (RM, 1990s): 4.Qd3 Nc6.
     (I "wasted" some planet names here, on the not so important and already known systems 11 and 12.)

     Note 2: Against 4.a3, there is no particular UHCA suggestion for black



Pluto Variation

     1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Nh6*

     R. Schlenker, Germany (Editor of "Der Randspringer"),
     early 1980s; Anders Nilsson, Sweden, 1985; system: RM, 1985 Plan: f6.


Tellus Variation

     1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4 c6*

     (RM, 1986); probably already known to traditional teory"
  
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dom
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Re: Winawer - 3...h6!?
Reply #5 - 04/26/04 at 05:51:10
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My two games references are just "examples" for b6-variation. The main point is: it's difficult to choose games which are trully "references" in one variation...and i haven't done that work for those lines (just because I studied other variations).
But your post is interesting ...and I like the subject of how to transpose ideas from one variation to another one. Thanks for the Planet X (btw) explanation, it's is more clearer .... but, just for fun, I would like to know Martens's naming ot other variations (name of book ?)
  

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Wonderer
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Re: Winawer - 3...h6!?
Reply #4 - 04/25/04 at 08:52:55
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Do you mean that you only found two important games or just two games all in all? I found almost 100 games with 4...Bf8

Here's three of them featuring celebs:

Krasnov,S - Gulko,B [C11]
Moscow-ch Moscow, 1970

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Bf8 5.Nf3 b6 6.Bd3 Ba6 7.0-0 Bxd3 8.Qxd3 Ne7 9.Ne2 Nf5 10.Bd2 h5 11.c4 c6 12.cxd5 Qxd5 13.b4 Be7 14.a4 Qd7 15.b5 0-0 16.Rfc1 a6 17.bxc6 Nxc6 18.d5 Bc5 19.a5 Nb4 20.Bxb4 Bxb4 21.axb6 Qxd5 22.Qxd5 exd5 23.Nf4 Rfd8 24.Rc7 d4 25.b7 Rab8 26.Nd3 a5 27.g3 Kf8 28.Rac1 Ke8 29.R1c4 Be7 30.h3 Rd7 31.Rc8+ 1-0



Arnason,J (2410) - Hoi,C (2355) [C11]
Gladsaxe Gladsaxe (7), 1979

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Ng8 5.Nf3 b6 6.h4 Bb4 7.Bd2 Ba6 8.Nb5 Bxd2+ 9.Qxd2 Ne7 10.h5 h6 11.g4 Bxb5 12.Bxb5+ Nd7 13.0-0-0 c6 14.Bd3 Qc7 15.Kb1 c5 16.c3 c4 17.Bf1 b5 18.Bh3 a5 19.g5 Qb6 20.Rhg1 b4 21.Ka1 Rb8 22.Rb1 Rb7 23.Nh4 hxg5 24.Qxg5 Rg8 25.f4 f5 26.Ng6 Nf8 27.Nh4 Kd7 28.Qg3 Qb5 29.Nf3 Nh7 30.Qf2 Nc6 31.Nh4 Ne7 32.Ng2 Rgb8 33.Rbc1 a4 34.cxb4 Qxb4 35.Rc3 Qxb2+ 36.Qxb2 Rxb2 37.Ne3 Ke8 38.Nc2 Kf7 39.Na3 Rh2 40.Rcg3 Rbb2 41.Rxg7+ Kf8 42.R7g2 c3 43.Rxh2 Rxh2 44.Bg2 Nc6 45.Nb5 c2 46.Kb2 Nb4 47.Nc7 Kf7 48.Nb5 Nd3+ 49.Kxc2 Nxf4 50.Nc3 Nxg2 51.Nxa4 Nf4+ 52.Kb3 Ne2 53.Rd1 Ng5 54.Nb6 Nf3 55.Kb4 Nexd4 56.a4 Rxh5 57.Kc5 Rh2 0-1



Arnason Jon L - Petrosian Tigran V [C11]
Tallinn (Estonia) Tallinn (Estonia), 1983

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Ng8 5.f4 b6 6.Be3 Nh6 7.Nf3 Qd7 8.Qd2 Ba6 9.Bxa6 Nxa6 10.Bf2 c5 11.h3 cxd4 12.Nxd4 Bb4 13.a3 Bxc3 14.Qxc3 Nc5 15.g4 Ng8 16.0-0-0 Ne7 17.f5 Ne4 18.Qf3 Nc6 19.Nxc6 Qxc6 20.Bd4 0-0-0 21.h4 Kb8 22.Rh2 Rd7 23.Kb1 Rc8 24.Qd3 Rdc7 25.Rf1 Qd7 26.Rf3 Qa4 27.Qd1 Rc4 28.Rd3 Qa5 29.h5 Qb5 30.Rb3 Qd7 31.Rf3 Qd8 32.Rd3 Qc7 33.Rf3 f6 34.fxe6 fxe5 35.Bg1 Qd6 36.Rf7 R4c7 37.Re2 Qxe6 38.Rxc7 Rxc7 39.Bh2 g6 40.Qd3 Kb7 41.hxg6 hxg6 42.Qf3 Rf7 43.Qg2 Ka6 44.c4 Qc6 45.cxd5 Qc4 46.Re1 Qd3+ 47.Ka2 Qxd5+ 48.Ka1 Rc7 49.Qe2+ b5 50.Rd1 Qc5 51.Bxe5 ½-½

I couldn't find Tarrasch's game from Breslau, with Bb4-e7, but found some other interesting points.

Romanishin has played 3...Be7 4.e5 with good results as black, not even giving a tempo for it...  4...c5 5.dxc5 transposes to Winawer games with Bb4xc5

There were even a transposition from the caro-kann, via 3.e5 c5. Which finally reveals the point of the CK, i.e. transposing to an Advance French!  Grin


Finally, I should perhaps explain the name 'Planet X'.

Martens named his french ideas after planets in the solar system, and when he came to Bb4-f8 he'd run out of planets, except for the mysterious 10th planet scientists argued existed. (it was recently found and named btw).

The most important of his other ideas are probably the ideas with Nh6 in the Advance proper, (I've forgotten what planet this was), which is nowadays quite accepted.
And the Jupiter system, 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nc6 4.Ngf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ng4!? 6.h3 Nh6 (idea f6 and Nf7)
  
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dom
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Re: Winawer - 3...h6!?
Reply #3 - 04/25/04 at 04:42:28
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Thanks for your answers...
I didn't know Planet X or Breslau- lines.  I have just recorded two games (after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Bf8 5.Nf3 ) with 5...b6 (instead of 5...c5): Abramovic-Nikolic,Vrbjacka Banja 1988 et Wittmann-Nogueiras,Thessalonique ol 1984.
I will try to buy NiC 2004/1 and analyze Eingorn& Lesky games...
  

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Wonderer
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Re: 3.Nc3 h6!?
Reply #2 - 04/24/04 at 05:32:05
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There are several tries of coaxing white into something resembling the Advance french.

Martens had some ideas with 3...Bb4 4.e5 Bf8 - Planet X or 4...Be7 Breslau variation, first tried by Tarrasch I think, back in the 1880s.

Btw, the Planet X can be transposed into, via 1...Nc6, so one can find some additional games via the following move order:

1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 e6 4.e5 Na5 5.Nf3 c5 6.dxc5 Bxc5 7.Bd3 Nc6

[with the same final position compared to: 1...e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 Bf8 5.Nf3 c5 6.dxc5 Nc6 7.Bd3 Bxc5]

Personally I think the Bf8/Be7 tempo loss is preferable to the slightly weakening h6, which tends to make a later f7-f6 more weakening that it need be.

For example, what if white meets h6 with a3 as in the stem game. White avoids the Winawer, while black avoids the Bg5 pin, - a trade I think white should benefit from.

Even the exchange variation may get some added bite due to the extra piece tempo...

Van Foreest,D - Wenzel [C10]
corr corr, 1970

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 h6 4.a3

[ 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 Nf6 6.Nge2 c5 7.dxc5 Bxc5 8.Bf4 0-0 9.Qd2 Nc6 10.a3 Re8 11.0-0 a6 12.Ng3 g5 13.Bxg5 hxg5 14.Qxg5+ Kf8 15.Qh6+ Ke7 16.b4 Bd4 17.Rae1+ Be6 18.Nf5+ Kd7 19.Nxd4 Nxd4 20.Na4 Rh8 21.Nc5+ Kc6 22.Qe3 Rxh2 23.Qxd4 Qh8 24.b5+ axb5 25.Bxb5+ Kxb5 26.Qb4+ Kc6 27.Qxb7+ Kd6 28.Qb6+ Ke7 29.Qc7+ 1-0 Skripchenko Lautier,A-Bricard,E/Montpellier 1998/EXT 2000 (29)]

4...Nf6 5.Bd3 c5 6.exd5 Nxd5 7.Nf3 Nxc3 8.bxc3 Nc6 9.0-0 Be7 10.Re1 0-0 11.Bf4 Bf6 12.Qe2 Ne7 13.Ne5 Bxe5 14.dxe5 f5 15.exf6 Rxf6 16.Be5 Rf7 17.Rad1 Qe8 18.Qe4 Rf5 19.g4 Qg6 20.Kf1 Rg5 21.Qa4 Qf7 22.h4 Rxe5 23.Rxe5 Nd5 24.Qe4 Nf6 25.Qf3 Bd7 26.g5 Bc6 27.Qh3 Nd5 28.gxh6 Nf4 29.Qg4 Rf8 30.hxg7 Bg2+ 31.Kg1 Qxg7 32.Qxg7+ Kxg7 33.Rg5+ Kh6 34.Rxg2 Nxg2 35.Kxg2 Rf4 36.c4 Rxh4 37.Re1 Rg4+ 38.Kf3 Rg7 39.Rxe6+ Kh5 40.Re5+ 1-0

  
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Ben_Hague
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Re: Winawer - 3...h6!?
Reply #1 - 04/24/04 at 04:50:25
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3...h6 is the subject of Jeroen Bosch's SOS article in New In Chess 2004/1. He analyses both 3.Nc3 h6 and 3.Nd2 h6, and says that GMs Legsky and Eingorn play it regularly.

He doesn't go into a lot of detail, but some ideas are:

4.e5 c5 with a good Advance

4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 Nc3 7.bxc3 c5 with a good Winawer

4.Bd3 Nc6 as you give
  
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C10: Winawer - 3...h6!?
04/24/04 at 03:43:57
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Neil McDonald has put some updates ago, one subject about the "no-name" variation ( Bricard's variation ?) One 2300-player told me some weeks ago, the variation has been revisited by MI/GM player (Eingorn?) in some paper review (I don't know which one...) with the idea of Nc6.
Player I told with, proposed one original idea to meet h6-move with 4.Be3!?  My home-analysis has driven meonly to propose mirror-move 4...Nc6. It's fun since Bricard told "h6 is a useful waiting move (wait for blocking center with e5 or exchanging with exd5)" and Be3,Nc6 are waiting moves too.
What's your opinion about it (Be3 and Nc6) ?
Here to follow some of my recorded lines:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 h6!?
A) 4.exd5 exd5 5.Nf3 (Delorme-Legky,2003 - McDonald update)
B) 4.e5 Bb4 5.Qg4 (5.Nf3 Ne7 - dom transposition to h6 idea in main line . See: 6.a3 leads to Anand-Hertneck,Munich 1991 or Anand-Ivanchuk Sortmund 1997, and some original system with h6 in Winawer ; 6.Bd2 b6!? ; 6.Bd3 c5 7.Bd2 c4 ; 6.Be2 oo) g6 with small advantage to White, but I have not analysed the line
C) 4.Nf3 Nc6!? (Eingorn in Nic , I don't know ?? ) ... it's the new idea with following moves 5.Bd3 Nb4!
D) 4.Bd3 Nc6 transpose to C)
« Last Edit: 08/03/11 at 20:38:07 by dom »  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
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