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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Open Ruy Lopez (Read 150228 times)
chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #151 - 03/07/14 at 13:35:27
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Being a Open Lopez player I liked the black position as equal.But I am not able to equalize on the other line...I think 13 a4 give black's lot of questions to solve..I have not got a way for black to equalize..

Mikhalevski being a open lopez expert lost to this line and was unable to equalize
p.s I don't know if this post is fit in this thread or should I make a new thread for it ???
  
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PANFR
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #150 - 03/05/14 at 18:52:38
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kylemeister wrote on 03/04/14 at 18:34:56:
Incidentally some old book stuff by a certain Korchnoi had 16. Qe2 as leading to a slight advantage for White.


A matter of taste, really.
16.Nbd2 just transposes to the line analysed by Mikhalevski after 16...Qxe3 17.fe3 Na5, I believe Black is OK.
16.Qe2 Rad8 17.Nc3 Nxc3 18.Bc3 Rfe8!? (Viktor played the pseudo-active Qc5 against Huebner, and lost) has been played at CC just a couple of times, but looks OK- I could not find some meaningful advantage for white, but plus over equals seems fair.
16.Qxb6 ab6 17.Na3 is a very small, but also very safe white advantage- effectively only one and a half results are possible.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #149 - 03/04/14 at 18:34:56
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PANFR wrote on 03/04/14 at 17:57:39:
15...Qb6 isn't scoring terribly well in practice. The only trouble for white is choosing between three rather promising continuations, namely 16.Qxb6 cb6 17.Na3, 16.Nbd2 and 16.Qe2.


Incidentally some old book stuff by a certain Korchnoi had 16. Qe2 as leading to a slight advantage for White.
  
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PANFR
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #148 - 03/04/14 at 17:57:39
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 03/03/14 at 13:20:56:
Black has
15...Qb6 might be interesting instead of the move 15...Na5 and instead of 34...Re8 why didn't black tried 34...Bxc6 if 35 Rxc6 d4 36 Rxa6 then position is equal by d3


15...Qb6 isn't scoring terribly well in practice. The only trouble for white is choosing between three rather promising continuations, namely 16.Qxb6 cb6 17.Na3, 16.Nbd2 and 16.Qe2.

Regarding 34...Bxc6 35.Rxc6 d4, white has to shut down the engine and apply common wisdom: 36.Rc2! which covers the second rank and prevents the direct activation of Black's king (36...Ke7? - not suprisingly, Houdini's first choice!- 37.Re2 and white wins... a human sees that instantly, an engine doesn't), retains a considerable advantage. No need to go pawngrabbing and allow counterplay!
  
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chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #147 - 03/03/14 at 13:20:56
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PANFR wrote on 01/14/14 at 18:30:05:
Black has several concrete problems to solve, even in lines which are not considered as dangerous anymore.
Here is a game I played at LSS against Tony37. His resignation was kinda surprising, but Black's position was very difficult, anyway.
17.Na3 is not mentioned by Mikhalevski, but it has been played before  at ICCF, and IMO it's white's most logical reaction in this position.


15...Qb6 might be interesting instead of the move 15...Na5 and instead of 34...Re8 why didn't black tried 34...Bxc6 if 35 Rxc6 d4 36 Rxa6 then position is equal by d3
  
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BladezII
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #146 - 02/26/14 at 04:56:55
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PANFR wrote on 01/15/14 at 10:44:25:
tony37 wrote on 01/14/14 at 19:49:44:
hi, I can give you lots of lines after 45.h3, but they all don't work (my problem is I started analysing deeply when it was too late), 40...Rc8 was no doubt better
but indeed, you found a good line for white, but I saw 17.Na3 too before you played it and I thought I had completely satisfying options in 15...Qb6 and 16...c5 but I was confident I could manage 17.Na3 and I don't think it's unmanageable but black has to stay alert for many more moves (and now I remember I only saw 20.Rac1 at move 18 or so, so my first analysis was a bit sloppy there)
by the way, it's fascinating to see how Komodo generally trumps Stockfish (and of course Houdini) in these complicated rook endings with a lot of pawns


To be honest, I did not analyse the final position in any great depth. Nor did I claim that 17.Na3 leads to some substantial advantage for white. But I can safely claim that Black's task after that move is certainly not an easy one, and whatever advantage white may have is (IMHO) more substantial than the ones following the 9.Nbd2 mainline.
9.Qe2 is currently not popular, but I think it's rather a matter of fashion.
I have played the Open Ruy a few times as Black, but I was put away by two games: against GM Neil McDonald, where I was somehow able to draw a totally lost rook endgame, and against GM Kotronias, where I was thoroughly prepared, and I was brutally slaugtered without being able to organize any meaningful counterplay.
Regarding correspondence chess, the Marshal Attack is so fooking reliable, that any deviation from it should occur only when Black is desperately seeking a win.


I not buying Mikhalevsky's book nor including the Open RL because of of those two reasons  1) Na3 and 2) Qe2.

When Mikhalevsky or some other expert writes on this from Black's perspective, the opening is a no go for me.

I am not riding the Marshall train, no, sir. 

So for the mean time, no 1 ... e5 for me.
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #145 - 02/13/14 at 10:52:33
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Remember that top players are constantly searching for new ideas.  In an interview I remember Kasparov saying that he looked through many games in databases, even of players quite lower rated than himself, some not even of international standard.  When asked why, what he could possibly learn from them, Kasparov said that he was just looking for new ideas.  It's that simple.

GMs will do their own research and even disagree somewhat with what's published, whether in Informator or a GM Repertoire book or wherever.  But it doesn't matter; they're looking for new ideas to use, and they find them.  Obviously they aren't going to just follow every recommendation in a GM Repertoire book to the end, but that really isn't the point.

I do think that Aagaard can come across as rather heavy-handed at times, though.  Sometimes it's best to just ignore the peanut gallery, I think.
  
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BladezII
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #144 - 02/13/14 at 04:51:53
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Schaakhamster wrote on 02/27/13 at 20:23:58:
Jacob Aagaard wrote on 02/27/13 at 10:54:09:
barnaby wrote on 02/27/13 at 02:01:01:
[quote author=5052555A340 link=1084036321/105#105 date=1361928483][quote author=7E7069797A707D7279696E1C0 link=1084036321/103#103 date=1361924779]

last thing, it is called a gm repertoire but the majority of people buying it will be well below that level ... keep it real, will ya?

gms these days aint waiting for books and then playing those repertoires at high levels

please ... the title is to make people that are club to tournament players feel better that they are playing lines the big boys and girls play


It is rather ludicrous to think that grandmasters are not heavily influenced by the Grandmaster Repertoire series. Gelfand took up 6…Nbd7 in the Najdorf because of Ftacniks’ book, probably more than hundred GMs have taken on Avrukh’s lines from GM1&2, with Yusupov coining the term: “I Avrukhed my opponent”. Ponomariov – Wang Yue in the Slav is a common example of how this happens. Ponomariov won two pawns, but sadly messed up in the technical phase.
Kramnik has openly expressed being inspired by Marin’s books, McShane played Marin’s repertoire for about a year, winning among others against Magnus Carlsen. Anand used one of the lines in his match with Topalov, but gave it his own twist, after Peter Heine Nielsen got infatuated with the books. Delchev used a novelty from Nikos and my book on the Tarrasch against Bacrot.
I really could go on, but I think I have made my main point. Obviously there is a caveat: Although books by Marin and Avrukh on main lines will influence grandmaster practice more than a book on the Open Spanish, Modern Benoni or Tarrasch, it is clear that these books are interesting to grandmasters of the highest level.


just an innocent question: is rebuking criticism on quality chess books in your job description? I have seen you having a go at several reviews on the Quality Chess blog. Doesn't seem a very efficient use of time. You can't please everyone.



I am going to say that GM Aagard is Absolutely right in what he said, regardless of his duty position at quality chess.  He spoke the TRUTH.

You cannot ask him to withhold the truth when it is a glaring one and which seems to be motivated by such an ignorant comment which is being addressed.

Top players are looking into these books, if they are not, their seconds (or their assistants)  are looking into them and them sharing what they find.

I am not even a top GM and I look into all of these books because I compete in correspondence and I don't hire assistants or seconds to survey the opening field.  I have to do all the legwork myself.

If I do that to stay competitive, you better believe top GMs, who live and who sustain themselves and their families by playing chess, you better believe they look into these books.

GM Aagard, well said.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #143 - 01/21/14 at 11:36:06
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tony37 wrote on 01/14/14 at 19:49:44:
by the way, it's fascinating to see how Komodo generally trumps Stockfish (and of course Houdini) in these complicated rook endings with a lot of pawns


Quite true. Analysing such endings using Houdini alone is equivalent to looking for trouble... the engine keeps evaluating those tricky endgames as flat equal, offers very passive approaches, and then suddenly changes his mind and gives them as totally won/lost. Stockfish isn't yet as good as Komodo, but it's constantly improving (I build the engine myself from git, and optimize it to my anhaemic machines specs).
Fortunately enough a lot of people on LSS blindly trust Houdini- else my rating there would be much lower!  Grin
A few days ago, an opponent rated 2310-something offered a draw in a position where I was seriously considering to resign since three or four moves before.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #142 - 01/20/14 at 18:03:18
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/16/14 at 19:00:45:
I am still far from sure if the Marshall is a bullet-proof draw in corr play. There are some lines which are not totally analysed to death yet.

PFREN, what is your opinion generally about the new d3-line with a3, as for example used by Dominguez yesterday against Caruana? I know that this is out of the scope of this thread, but i felt like risking this question!  Smiley

...and yes, that Qe2 system always seemed to me like a notable threat of the Open Spanish, but lately i have been analysing the 9.Be3 line(the Mikhalevski book has a note about one discovery of mine which he neutralised almost, but a slight insignificant plus for White is still there) and i like White's chances, without claiming a theoretically important edge in any means.


This system is quite fashionable at top level recently, so we can assume it does have some punch. Not even sure about Black's best strategy (Bb7, Be6 or Bg4). I've tried this three times at correspondence chess, albeit using the old c2-c3 idea (used several times by Anand) and got nothing at all in all three games. Nc3 seems more appropriate.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #141 - 01/16/14 at 19:00:45
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I am still far from sure if the Marshall is a bullet-proof draw in corr play. There are some lines which are not totally analysed to death yet.

PFREN, what is your opinion generally about the new d3-line with a3, as for example used by Dominguez yesterday against Caruana? I know that this is out of the scope of this thread, but i felt like risking this question!  Smiley

...and yes, that Qe2 system always seemed to me like a notable threat of the Open Spanish, but lately i have been analysing the 9.Be3 line(the Mikhalevski book has a note about one discovery of mine which he neutralised almost, but a slight insignificant plus for White is still there) and i like White's chances, without claiming a theoretically important edge in any means.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #140 - 01/15/14 at 10:44:25
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tony37 wrote on 01/14/14 at 19:49:44:
hi, I can give you lots of lines after 45.h3, but they all don't work (my problem is I started analysing deeply when it was too late), 40...Rc8 was no doubt better
but indeed, you found a good line for white, but I saw 17.Na3 too before you played it and I thought I had completely satisfying options in 15...Qb6 and 16...c5 but I was confident I could manage 17.Na3 and I don't think it's unmanageable but black has to stay alert for many more moves (and now I remember I only saw 20.Rac1 at move 18 or so, so my first analysis was a bit sloppy there)
by the way, it's fascinating to see how Komodo generally trumps Stockfish (and of course Houdini) in these complicated rook endings with a lot of pawns


To be honest, I did not analyse the final position in any great depth. Nor did I claim that 17.Na3 leads to some substantial advantage for white. But I can safely claim that Black's task after that move is certainly not an easy one, and whatever advantage white may have is (IMHO) more substantial than the ones following the 9.Nbd2 mainline.
9.Qe2 is currently not popular, but I think it's rather a matter of fashion.
I have played the Open Ruy a few times as Black, but I was put away by two games: against GM Neil McDonald, where I was somehow able to draw a totally lost rook endgame, and against GM Kotronias, where I was thoroughly prepared, and I was brutally slaugtered without being able to organize any meaningful counterplay.
Regarding correspondence chess, the Marshal Attack is so fooking reliable, that any deviation from it should occur only when Black is desperately seeking a win.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #139 - 01/14/14 at 19:49:44
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hi, I can give you lots of lines after 45.h3, but they all don't work (my problem is I started analysing deeply when it was too late), 40...Rc8 was no doubt better
but indeed, you found a good line for white, but I saw 17.Na3 too before you played it and I thought I had completely satisfying options in 15...Qb6 and 16...c5 but I was confident I could manage 17.Na3 and I don't think it's unmanageable but black has to stay alert for many more moves (and now I remember I only saw 20.Rac1 at move 18 or so, so my first analysis was a bit sloppy there)
by the way, it's fascinating to see how Komodo generally trumps Stockfish (and of course Houdini) in these complicated rook endings with a lot of pawns
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #138 - 01/14/14 at 18:30:05
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Black has several concrete problems to solve, even in lines which are not considered as dangerous anymore.
Here is a game I played at LSS against Tony37. His resignation was kinda surprising, but Black's position was very difficult, anyway.
17.Na3 is not mentioned by Mikhalevski, but it has been played before  at ICCF, and IMO it's white's most logical reaction in this position.

  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #137 - 01/04/14 at 12:27:50
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 01/04/14 at 05:21:21:
Are there any model games for black on open lopez line ???


Do you have any Open Ruy books?
  
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