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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Open Ruy Lopez (Read 156882 times)
Markovich
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #16 - 05/06/10 at 20:38:49
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Well I stand corrected.  I looked at my data base and it does appear that 10.Nxe4 is a minor move and not a very successful one.  You learn something every day.

Relevant to 9.Nbd2 Be7 10.c3 or 9.c3 Be7 10.Nbd2, Anand - Leko 2006 is a pretty interesting game: 10...O-O 11.Qe2 Nc5 12.Nd4 Nxb3 13.N2xb3!? (13.Nxc6) 13...Qd7 14.Nxc6 Qxc6 15.Be3 Qc4!? 16.Qd2!? b4 17.Rac1 and now instead of Leko's 17...Qg4!?, I think Black should consider 17...Rfc8 as played in Bjuhr - Wikstrom, Sweden 1969, no less.  Black's game looks playable to me.  Here I use "!?" in the sense of "major crossroads."

But on second thought, 18.f4 as played by Bjuhr looks challenging.  Well anyway, it's interesting.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #15 - 05/06/10 at 16:07:00
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Shirov-Ivanchuk 2009 transposed to a line which has traditionally been thought to be fine for Black -- i.e. 9. c3 Be7 10. Nbd2 0-0 11. Re1 Nc5 etc., where 11. Qe2 has generally been considered better.
  
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joakimvitriol
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #14 - 05/06/10 at 15:25:41
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In my 2500+ database first choice after 9...Be7 is 10.c3 (61 game) but there are 4 games with 10.Nxe4 (Ivanchuk made a draw vs. Shirov 2005.) and Shirov tried 10.Re1 and won vs. Ivanchuk 2009.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #13 - 05/05/10 at 14:56:30
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Markovich wrote on 05/05/10 at 12:58:01:
Yes, really.  True, 9.c3 Be7 is supposed to lead to a "slight advantage" in the sense that White has a slight advantage in the opening position, maybe a little worse depending on your taste; but 9.Nbd2 Be7 (or Bc5) 10.Nxe4 is supposed to lead to something somewhat more than that.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that has been my understanding.  9.Nbd2 is a challenge to the entire Open Defense and not just a move-order trick to avoid 9...Bc5.  That's why Kasparov said after defeating Anand with 9.Nbd2 that he had "closed the Open Defense."  And as you'll recall, for about 10 years or so it remained closed, until Ponomariov's discoveries in the pawns-versus-piece ending that arises from taking off the g5 knight.


Well, one observation is that several incarnations of ECO/NCO/MCO published between 1997 and 2008 all give 9...Be7 10. Nxe4 as leading to equality.  I would think that "closing the Open Defense" means establishing (at least) a pretty clear += against all of Black's possibilities, and that Kasparov might well have considered that already done in the case of 9. Nbd2 Be7 10. c3.   
  
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Markovich
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #12 - 05/05/10 at 12:58:01
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kylemeister wrote on 05/05/10 at 02:42:01:
Markovich wrote on 05/04/10 at 21:42:21:
Most people think that 9...Be7 10.Nxe4 is somewhat worse for Black than 9...Nc5.  Black is relatively solid, however.  Ditto 9...Bc5.  I suspect that few Whites would play 10.c3, which would say, "Forgive and forget."


Really?  It's been my impression that 9...Be7 10. c3 is generally thought to lead to a slight advantage, but 10. Nxe4 is not.  After 9...Be7 White has of course avoided the Dilworth, which I would have thought was a/the main reason for the popularity of 9. Nbd2 (whereupon 9...Bc5 10. Nxe4 is considered somewhat better for White, as far as I know).


Yes, really.  True, 9.c3 Be7 is supposed to lead to a "slight advantage" in the sense that White has a slight advantage in the opening position, maybe a little worse depending on your taste; but 9.Nbd2 Be7 (or Bc5) 10.Nxe4 is supposed to lead to something somewhat more than that.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that has been my understanding.  9.Nbd2 is a challenge to the entire Open Defense and not just a move-order trick to avoid 9...Bc5.  That's why Kasparov said after defeating Anand with 9.Nbd2 that he had "closed the Open Defense."  And as you'll recall, for about 10 years or so it remained closed, until Ponomariov's discoveries in the pawns-versus-piece ending that arises from taking off the g5 knight.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #11 - 05/05/10 at 02:42:01
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Markovich wrote on 05/04/10 at 21:42:21:
Most people think that 9...Be7 10.Nxe4 is somewhat worse for Black than 9...Nc5.  Black is relatively solid, however.  Ditto 9...Bc5.  I suspect that few Whites would play 10.c3, which would say, "Forgive and forget."


Really?  It's been my impression that 9...Be7 10. c3 is generally thought to lead to a slight advantage, but 10. Nxe4 is not.  After 9...Be7 White has of course avoided the Dilworth, which I would have thought was a/the main reason for the popularity of 9. Nbd2 (whereupon 9...Bc5 10. Nxe4 is considered somewhat better for White, as far as I know).
  
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Markovich
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #10 - 05/04/10 at 21:42:21
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Most people think that 9...Be7 10.Nxe4 is somewhat worse for Black than 9...Nc5.  Black is relatively solid, however.  Ditto 9...Bc5.  I suspect that few Whites would play 10.c3, which would say, "Forgive and forget."
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #9 - 05/04/10 at 17:35:28
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10...0-0 produces an old standard mainline position.
  
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joakimvitriol
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #8 - 05/04/10 at 17:18:49
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What about this line:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. Nbd2 Be7

How good is 9...Be7 instead of 9...Nc5?

OK, it can transpose if after 10.c3 black plays Nc5 but what if 10...0-0?
  
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photophore
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #7 - 09/25/04 at 15:00:24
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I think that in the 9 Nd2 line the piece sac Ng5 is not to be feared , and that one may as well take the N , as shows computer experience: the line is somewhat tricky , but Black should survive , espcially after O-O-O
modern computers , As Junior7 ( the strongest tactician IMHO ) are very well fitted for these lines , and no doubt
that they will lead to  revise many assessments in Open Ruy Lopez Roll Eyes
  
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Markovich
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #6 - 09/18/04 at 14:33:37
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It is perhaps time to resurrect this thread in light of Ponomariov's 21...d3 as called attention to in the latest Update.  I looked over the analysis given there, and it appears to stand up for Black.

If so, I am very happy about this, since I have had the Open in my repertoire for a long time and I have a large Bookup file on it.  Lately I haven't played it, not knowing what to do about 9. Nbd2.

I always thought it would be a terrible shame if this whole branch of theory were lopped off!
  

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ano
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #5 - 07/10/04 at 02:34:54
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Flears book on the Open Lopez suggests that Black is okay in early deviations such as Nb3 instead of d4 and that he may even have improvements to the Svidler-Anand game where he played after white's Ng5 Bd5. Notably no-one including Flear seems to have taken this up and Khalifman in his recent book suggests Black is struggling in this line although I am not sure he covers Flear's suggestions. What do you think? Certainly Anand was prepared to play after Nbd2 Be7 earlier this year at Super GM level thereby suggesting all is not lost as far as black is concerned.
  
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Bond
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #4 - 06/10/04 at 17:28:54
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Yes, 9 Nbd2 Bc5 gives black a worse endgame. But after 9 c3 the active 9...Bc5 looks like a better option than 9...Be7.
  
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Lauri Torni
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #3 - 06/10/04 at 08:09:09
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Hi!

The reason is, that nowadays white usually
plays 9.N1d2. Here 9.-Bc5 is not that good anymore.

Ako
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Bond
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez9
Reply #2 - 06/10/04 at 00:01:27
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another thought:
in my opinion the 9 c3 Bc5 line should be much more popular than 9...Be7. for because black is quite active (eg dilworth attack) and the pressure against f2 is a problem for white. what are the reasons for black preferring Be7?
  
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