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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Open Ruy Lopez (Read 151545 times)
NeverGiveUp
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #76 - 10/03/11 at 08:47:16
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Thanks a lot for this Vass.

Two questions to you:

1.Are you a Lopez player yourself? If yes, what line(s) do you play?

2.You're saying I never give up ... however ... have a look at:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1228270377/all

and in particular Aiorla's post on there of 10/08/10.

The Riga variation of the Lopez has been my pet line for about 10 years. I got good results with it and definitely scored > 50%. However with some truly brillant, amazing and unfortunate analyses on this forum this magic line has been busted now, I'm afraid. This is a shame since it's more than 100 years old, it has been "busted" several times in the past, but always survived after improvements were found. This most recent bust is however a very tough nut to crack, and may be the end of the line ...   

The main line of the Riga goes 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 ed4: 7.Re1 d5 8.Nd4: Bd6! 9.Nc6: Bh2:+! 10.Kh1! Qh4 11.Re4:+ de4: 12.Qd8:+ Qd8: 13.Nd8: Kd8: 14.Kh2: Be6. This endgame has been extensively analysed in an article in NIC yearbook 85 and is definitely doable for black. Most of the numerous games I played with it ended in a draw, I won at least 5, and lost only one. By the present state of affairs the Berger line however (proposed by Berger in 1909!), 8.Bg5! seems to lead to disaster for black, if white knows what he's doing. 

It would be very much appreciated if you have a go at this. This is no easy matter, and the lines are pretty forced,  so if you're unsuccessful (if you cannot find an improvement for black) it' s no big deal. The analyses are quite fun. 
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #75 - 10/01/11 at 06:32:08
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Yes, this 18...0-0! seems healthy. It seems you Never Give Up...  Wink
Anyway, when playing this position OTB (I see you're deep in and you'll do it no matter what) look out for positions that can arise after f2-f4-f5 when your knight is on e6 (I went through some of them during my analyses) or positions like this one:

Although objectively equal...there's some poison in such positions (if my feeling is right)..  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #74 - 09/30/11 at 15:11:18
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You're a genius Vass!

After publishing this lot I have analysed this position further with my teammates  and one of them pointed the finger at your Nf5! - a very good move indeed - white is better here.
However:
After 15.Nbd4 Be7 16.b4 Nd4: 17.Nd4: Ne6 18.Qd3: 0-0(!) white is very much entangled and black has sufficient compensation for the pawn after 19.Qe3 a5! or 19.Qf3 Qf3: 20.Nf3: a5! 21.Bd2 ab4: 22.cb4: Ra3 23.Rfc1 Rd8 followed by ... g5.
With my teammates I analysed this further and we came to the conclusion that with this clever pawn sac black is fine.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #73 - 09/30/11 at 13:50:22
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 09/30/11 at 11:10:00:
Please have a look at my post of 01/31/11 at 16:33:25 - this provides a complete extensive analysis of the interesting Bf5!?.
It's not easy at all for white to achieve something against this move.
In an OTB game (upcoming!) if I throw it at them it will have the additional benefit of a large surprise value.

I've spotted it.. Yes, you've made an analysis of this line.. It's evident from the job you've done that you really like this Bf5-setup.. In your remarks you put !-mark to 13.Nb3.. Then how come that you missed such an obvious move?!..  Shocked Following your main line:

So far so good.. And now 18. Nf5! I said "carefully"..in my previous post. As a corr.chess player I've learned one thing - the first engine lines aren't always the best.. One has to have a feel for chess positions.. I've recently read an interview with one of the best corr.chess players in the world.. And he says that he uses the engine only to see the wide range of moves he can play in a position so that he can avoid blunders. The rest is the feel for the given position and the experience. This can be applied for this concrete position, too.. What we got here? Black not castled, rescuing to lose the d-pawn.. Not even a chance to fight for the white e5-pawn.. The only task for white is to find the right moves. Hence +=, at least.. Wink
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #72 - 09/30/11 at 11:10:00
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Please have a look at my post of 01/31/11 at 16:33:25 - this provides a complete extensive analysis of the interesting Bf5!?.
It's not easy at all for white to achieve something against this move.
In an OTB game (upcoming!) if I throw it at them it will have the additional benefit of a large surprise value.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #71 - 09/30/11 at 10:34:00
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 09/30/11 at 09:27:47:
I would need to look this up but I do remember it is mentioned in Flear who gives it as marginally better for white but not really to worry about.

Vass - if you've got some more time can I ask you your valued expert opinion about another very critical (and interesting) line which I'm sure will be played at least once in the coming season: the 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.de5: Be6 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 Bf5!? - see extended analyses earlier in this thread? 

Always prolong the lines when you feel that there's something there, NGU! Always!
I've read this thread carefully and saw that you followed a game (maybe unconscious, though you mentioned Khmelniker in a previous post) which is very interesting. Piotr Bobras 2565 - Ilya Khmelniker 2443 (Bad Wiessee, Germany 2008) goes like this:

So far so good.. And here you say "13. cxd4.. What else?!" (Btw 13. Nxd4 played in this game is the same.)
There's always else.. Look at 13. Nb3!? very, very carefully!.. I will leave you to do this by yourself.  Wink
I've played so many games as white in Ruy Lopez.. White does the same everytime. The scheme is known for centuries. Nothing exceptional, nothing unusual.. While here 11.a4 seems awful - giving away your bishop for a beast?! With 10... Bf5!? you achieved what?! Leaving your precious d-pawn with no proper defence.. Why 11. Nd4 then? To help you defending it?.. Naaah.. Exchange the B's and your d-pawn is vulnerable. Then we'll look at this d-file. You know...Spanish torture never ends!..  Smiley
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #70 - 09/30/11 at 09:27:47
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I would need to look this up but I do remember it is mentioned in Flear who gives it as marginally better for white but not really to worry about.

Vass - if you've got some more time can I ask you your valued expert opinion about another very critical (and interesting) line which I'm sure will be played at least once in the coming season: the 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.de5: Be6 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 Bf5!? - see extended analyses earlier in this thread?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #69 - 09/30/11 at 07:58:52
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 09/29/11 at 13:45:05:
I recommend against 9.Qe2: 9. ... Bc5 10.Be3 0-0 11.Rd1 Re8!?, a very interesting idea of Kortchnoi.   

But don't forget that after 9...Bc5 white has 10.Nbd2 which is better imho.  Wink
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #68 - 09/29/11 at 13:45:05
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I recommend against 9.Qe2: 9. ... Bc5 10.Be3 0-0 11.Rd1 Re8!?, a very interesting idea of Kortchnoi.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #67 - 07/11/11 at 13:21:36
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/11/11 at 12:32:46:
Oh, really?

And do you like to see it or do you prefer playing against the alternatives?

I like it okay, and my results are good: two wins against 1700-ish players and one loss against a 2600 (I was probably going to lose that one no matter what Smiley).

My main concern with the line, and I am probably overthinking this, is playing for a win against lower-ranked players. My main line (from Flear and Krasenkov) is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Qe2 Be7 10.Rd1 0-0 11.c4 bxc4 12.Bxc4 Bc5 13.Be3 Bxe3 14.Qxe3 Qb8 15.Bb3 Na5 (one of the games vs a 1700 actually got this far) and now if White plays 16.Bxd5 it seems that 16...Bxd5 17.Rxd5 Qxb2 18.Qd4 is fairly forced, which looks very drawish.

So I should probably either 1) look at some other ideas such as 12...Qd7 or 2) stop worrying about it Smiley and assume that if I'm a better player than White, I can beat him in the endgame after 18...Qxd4.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #66 - 07/11/11 at 12:44:58
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/11/11 at 09:45:44:
I'm somehow in love with the Keres-Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Qe2 ([B81]). But that seems to be totally out of fashion?  Cry

Zwischenzugzwang


It's very respectable and good and there seems to be no obvious reason why it's out of fashion. Flear rightly mentions it's one of more difficult lines for black to meet.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #65 - 07/11/11 at 12:32:46
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Oh, really?

And do you like to see it or do you prefer playing against the alternatives?
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #64 - 07/11/11 at 12:12:04
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/11/11 at 09:45:44:
I'm somehow in love with the Keres-Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Qe2 ([B81]). But that seems to be totally out of fashion?  Cry

Zwischenzugzwang

At the 1800 level, I seem to face 9.Qe2 around half the time (of the times that White knows 6.d4, that is).
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #63 - 07/11/11 at 11:00:07
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Matemax wrote on 07/11/11 at 10:13:22:
Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/11/11 at 09:45:44:
I'm somehow in love with the Keres-Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Qe2 ([B81]). But that seems to be totally out of fashion?  Cry

Zwischenzugzwang

somewhere C80-C83, probably C80


Yes, of course, thank you, Matemax. But there was a time it was quite popular, so it got it's own ECO-Code [C81].

Nevertheless, the rest of my statement seems to be true. Flear wrote about it ("Open Ruy Lopez" (2000), p. 109) that "[t]he 9.Qe2 variation is curious in that White's results are good but the line is out of fashion". And it seems that nothing has changed since then. Or are there any variations that allow Black easy equalizing?

Zwischenzugzwang
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #62 - 07/11/11 at 10:13:22
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/11/11 at 09:45:44:
I'm somehow in love with the Keres-Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Qe2 ([B81]). But that seems to be totally out of fashion?  Cry

Zwischenzugzwang

somewhere C80-C83, probably C80
  
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