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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Open Ruy Lopez (Read 150280 times)
CarriedbyGg
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #166 - 04/10/15 at 17:09:47
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Could you name numbers or games? For example, how high is your rating?

Actually, it's pretty much ok for me to see the lines proposed by Mikhalevski against the Nbd2 line. If White wants nothing, then we make a draw and get on. And these are not dead drawn lines, Black just gets equality. I'm not sure if the Bg4 lines are that nice for Black because White can simply put up an attack on the kingside with pretty easy motivs. Maybe one can fix the lines, but me surely not Cheesy
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #165 - 04/07/15 at 17:13:32
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I simply play Nxb3 after Nbd2 and have had zero issues in this line. 

White just does not have enough here to win by force.  Back gets the B pair and the engines claim a nominal +/= but found it to be very reasonable to hold the resulting positions.  In addition, most players of White spend zero time looking at this as this move is considered taboo.



  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #164 - 04/06/15 at 21:26:26
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CarriedbyGg wrote on 04/05/15 at 14:38:53:
Any new opinions about how to play against Nbd2? I'm on 2100 Elo level and I'm searching for a combative choice. Mikhalevski has some pretty decent analysis in his book, but against a non-booked opponent there are too many drawish endgames as it seems. So I thought about playing this Bg4 stuff instead. Do you have any opinions on that?


[edited a couple of numbers]

I had the same problem. Mikhalevski clearly worked hard on the book, but the repertoire doesn't seem like a great choice of lines for ordinary players. I looked into Bg4 a bit, but mostly just succeeded in convincing myself that White is better there. It seems like against everything other than 9.c3 (which White is kind to keep playing OTB at all), Black either gives White a healthy advantage, or grovels for a draw.

My way of dealing with this was to basically just give up on the Open Defense. In my opinion it is more trouble than it is worth. Honestly not sure why anyone plays it at this point. Heck, in 46 games with the Open in the last 10 years, Mikhalevski himself has a performance rating (I mean performance minus actual rating) of -98. By contrast, his performance rating after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 is -6! Probably as a result of this, his performance against 1.e4 on the whole is -73 whereas his performance against 1.d4 is -9. Maybe he would benefit from learning a new defense to 1.e4 himself.  Undecided
  

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CarriedbyGg
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #163 - 04/05/15 at 14:38:53
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Any new opinions about how to play against Nbd2? I'm on 2100 Elo level and I'm searching for a combative choice. Mikhalevski has some pretty decent analysis in his book, but against a non-booked opponent there are too many drawish endgames as it seems. So I thought about playing this Bg4 stuff instead. Do you have any opinions on that?
  
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tony37
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #162 - 11/18/14 at 21:50:55
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PANFR wrote on 11/18/14 at 19:48:16:
It seems that Mikhalevski does not dig correspondence databases.

maybe he does, but the game isn't in the database yet because the tournament still isn't finished
  
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PANFR
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #161 - 11/18/14 at 19:48:16
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tony37 wrote on 11/17/14 at 13:55:11:
seems like Mikhalevski has discovered 17.Na3 too now (see his last update)


I'm not a subscriber here, and the Mikhalevski game is not in my database (yet?).
I have seen Mickey's game though, and I never understood why he did not decide to take the c7 pawn at move 23- the ensuing ending is simply unpleasant for Black.
It seems that Mikhalevski does not dig correspondence databases.
And in any case, nothing to be proud of- 17.Na3 isn't my invention.
EDIT: Just saw the Mikhalevski game from a recent TWIC which I had not inserted in my database. Pretty depressing for Black...
  
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tony37
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #160 - 11/17/14 at 13:55:11
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PANFR wrote on 01/14/14 at 18:30:05:
Black has several concrete problems to solve, even in lines which are not considered as dangerous anymore.
Here is a game I played at LSS against Tony37. His resignation was kinda surprising, but Black's position was very difficult, anyway.
17.Na3 is not mentioned by Mikhalevski, but it has been played before  at ICCF, and IMO it's white's most logical reaction in this position.

seems like Mikhalevski has discovered 17.Na3 too now (see his last update)
  
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PANFR
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #159 - 03/10/14 at 17:37:02
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Sorry to disturb you, but Mikhalevski does not advocate 10...d4 at all.
  
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chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #158 - 03/08/14 at 21:33:03
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/08/14 at 11:56:22:
Now you've changed your line again; previously you had 15...Qd7 which looked perfectly acceptable to Black to me. 



Black hits e4 with tempo and will then swing the queen to g6, which looks perfectly fine (without doing serious analysis) to me.

I'm glad that you supply variations (lots of other posters don't!), but some explanation of why you don't like a line would be helpful.  Anyhow Black seems to be OK in multiple lines here.



White was slightly better in the game and also on my analysis  Cry
  
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PANFR
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #157 - 03/08/14 at 17:41:06
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 03/08/14 at 07:40:19:
I am sorry but I am not able to understand which c5 are you talking  Cry...Please tell me


You don't?
Errr, in the Kosintseva- Mikhalevski game you have posted, 15...c5 (instead of 15...Bxd2) should be fine for Black.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #156 - 03/08/14 at 11:56:22
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Now you've changed your line again; previously you had 15...Qd7 which looked perfectly acceptable to Black to me. 



Black hits e4 with tempo and will then swing the queen to g6, which looks perfectly fine (without doing serious analysis) to me.

I'm glad that you supply variations (lots of other posters don't!), but some explanation of why you don't like a line would be helpful.  Anyhow Black seems to be OK in multiple lines here.
« Last Edit: 03/08/14 at 15:53:40 by ErictheRed »  
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chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #155 - 03/08/14 at 07:53:05
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/07/14 at 15:28:40:
Chandra,

I won't pretend to know anything about the Open Lopez, but my first thought is: is there anything wrong with 13...Rb8, which looks natural to me?  That was played by Timman against Nunn back in the 80's and analyzed somewhere, though I don't remember where I saw it.  Maybe Glen Flear's older book, maybe Secrets of Grandmaster Chess, I have no idea. 

By the way, it isn't clear to me at all what's wrong with your 13...Bc5 line.  Black looks OK there to me, but maybe there's something I'm missing. 

I might not be the best person to help, but my point is that if you want help, you'd better explain what's wrong with your sidelines (and even main line), as I don't see much problem with Black's game after 17...Nxg5 in your 13...Bc5 line, among other confusions.


  
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chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #154 - 03/08/14 at 07:40:19
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PANFR wrote on 03/07/14 at 19:14:40:
This is a line I was looking at as white, and dismissed it, as I could not find a real advantage after 15...c5 16.Nc4 0-0. Black is fine, as far as I'm concerned.


I am sorry but I am not able to understand which c5 are you talking  Cry...Please tell me
  
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PANFR
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #153 - 03/07/14 at 19:14:40
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This is a line I was looking at as white, and dismissed it, as I could not find a real advantage after 15...c5 16.Nc4 0-0. Black is fine, as far as I'm concerned.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #152 - 03/07/14 at 15:28:40
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Chandra,

I won't pretend to know anything about the Open Lopez, but my first thought is: is there anything wrong with 13...Rb8, which looks natural to me?  That was played by Timman against Nunn back in the 80's and analyzed somewhere, though I don't remember where I saw it.  Maybe Glen Flear's older book, maybe Secrets of Grandmaster Chess, I have no idea. 

By the way, it isn't clear to me at all what's wrong with your 13...Bc5 line.  Black looks OK there to me, but maybe there's something I'm missing. 

I might not be the best person to help, but my point is that if you want help, you'd better explain what's wrong with your sidelines (and even main line), as I don't see much problem with Black's game after 17...Nxg5 in your 13...Bc5 line, among other confusions.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #151 - 03/07/14 at 13:35:27
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Being a Open Lopez player I liked the black position as equal.But I am not able to equalize on the other line...I think 13 a4 give black's lot of questions to solve..I have not got a way for black to equalize..

Mikhalevski being a open lopez expert lost to this line and was unable to equalize
p.s I don't know if this post is fit in this thread or should I make a new thread for it ???
  
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PANFR
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #150 - 03/05/14 at 18:52:38
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kylemeister wrote on 03/04/14 at 18:34:56:
Incidentally some old book stuff by a certain Korchnoi had 16. Qe2 as leading to a slight advantage for White.


A matter of taste, really.
16.Nbd2 just transposes to the line analysed by Mikhalevski after 16...Qxe3 17.fe3 Na5, I believe Black is OK.
16.Qe2 Rad8 17.Nc3 Nxc3 18.Bc3 Rfe8!? (Viktor played the pseudo-active Qc5 against Huebner, and lost) has been played at CC just a couple of times, but looks OK- I could not find some meaningful advantage for white, but plus over equals seems fair.
16.Qxb6 ab6 17.Na3 is a very small, but also very safe white advantage- effectively only one and a half results are possible.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #149 - 03/04/14 at 18:34:56
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PANFR wrote on 03/04/14 at 17:57:39:
15...Qb6 isn't scoring terribly well in practice. The only trouble for white is choosing between three rather promising continuations, namely 16.Qxb6 cb6 17.Na3, 16.Nbd2 and 16.Qe2.


Incidentally some old book stuff by a certain Korchnoi had 16. Qe2 as leading to a slight advantage for White.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #148 - 03/04/14 at 17:57:39
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 03/03/14 at 13:20:56:
Black has
15...Qb6 might be interesting instead of the move 15...Na5 and instead of 34...Re8 why didn't black tried 34...Bxc6 if 35 Rxc6 d4 36 Rxa6 then position is equal by d3


15...Qb6 isn't scoring terribly well in practice. The only trouble for white is choosing between three rather promising continuations, namely 16.Qxb6 cb6 17.Na3, 16.Nbd2 and 16.Qe2.

Regarding 34...Bxc6 35.Rxc6 d4, white has to shut down the engine and apply common wisdom: 36.Rc2! which covers the second rank and prevents the direct activation of Black's king (36...Ke7? - not suprisingly, Houdini's first choice!- 37.Re2 and white wins... a human sees that instantly, an engine doesn't), retains a considerable advantage. No need to go pawngrabbing and allow counterplay!
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #147 - 03/03/14 at 13:20:56
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PANFR wrote on 01/14/14 at 18:30:05:
Black has several concrete problems to solve, even in lines which are not considered as dangerous anymore.
Here is a game I played at LSS against Tony37. His resignation was kinda surprising, but Black's position was very difficult, anyway.
17.Na3 is not mentioned by Mikhalevski, but it has been played before  at ICCF, and IMO it's white's most logical reaction in this position.


15...Qb6 might be interesting instead of the move 15...Na5 and instead of 34...Re8 why didn't black tried 34...Bxc6 if 35 Rxc6 d4 36 Rxa6 then position is equal by d3
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #146 - 02/26/14 at 04:56:55
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PANFR wrote on 01/15/14 at 10:44:25:
tony37 wrote on 01/14/14 at 19:49:44:
hi, I can give you lots of lines after 45.h3, but they all don't work (my problem is I started analysing deeply when it was too late), 40...Rc8 was no doubt better
but indeed, you found a good line for white, but I saw 17.Na3 too before you played it and I thought I had completely satisfying options in 15...Qb6 and 16...c5 but I was confident I could manage 17.Na3 and I don't think it's unmanageable but black has to stay alert for many more moves (and now I remember I only saw 20.Rac1 at move 18 or so, so my first analysis was a bit sloppy there)
by the way, it's fascinating to see how Komodo generally trumps Stockfish (and of course Houdini) in these complicated rook endings with a lot of pawns


To be honest, I did not analyse the final position in any great depth. Nor did I claim that 17.Na3 leads to some substantial advantage for white. But I can safely claim that Black's task after that move is certainly not an easy one, and whatever advantage white may have is (IMHO) more substantial than the ones following the 9.Nbd2 mainline.
9.Qe2 is currently not popular, but I think it's rather a matter of fashion.
I have played the Open Ruy a few times as Black, but I was put away by two games: against GM Neil McDonald, where I was somehow able to draw a totally lost rook endgame, and against GM Kotronias, where I was thoroughly prepared, and I was brutally slaugtered without being able to organize any meaningful counterplay.
Regarding correspondence chess, the Marshal Attack is so fooking reliable, that any deviation from it should occur only when Black is desperately seeking a win.


I not buying Mikhalevsky's book nor including the Open RL because of of those two reasons  1) Na3 and 2) Qe2.

When Mikhalevsky or some other expert writes on this from Black's perspective, the opening is a no go for me.

I am not riding the Marshall train, no, sir. 

So for the mean time, no 1 ... e5 for me.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #145 - 02/13/14 at 10:52:33
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Remember that top players are constantly searching for new ideas.  In an interview I remember Kasparov saying that he looked through many games in databases, even of players quite lower rated than himself, some not even of international standard.  When asked why, what he could possibly learn from them, Kasparov said that he was just looking for new ideas.  It's that simple.

GMs will do their own research and even disagree somewhat with what's published, whether in Informator or a GM Repertoire book or wherever.  But it doesn't matter; they're looking for new ideas to use, and they find them.  Obviously they aren't going to just follow every recommendation in a GM Repertoire book to the end, but that really isn't the point.

I do think that Aagaard can come across as rather heavy-handed at times, though.  Sometimes it's best to just ignore the peanut gallery, I think.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #144 - 02/13/14 at 04:51:53
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Schaakhamster wrote on 02/27/13 at 20:23:58:
Jacob Aagaard wrote on 02/27/13 at 10:54:09:
barnaby wrote on 02/27/13 at 02:01:01:
[quote author=5052555A340 link=1084036321/105#105 date=1361928483][quote author=7E7069797A707D7279696E1C0 link=1084036321/103#103 date=1361924779]

last thing, it is called a gm repertoire but the majority of people buying it will be well below that level ... keep it real, will ya?

gms these days aint waiting for books and then playing those repertoires at high levels

please ... the title is to make people that are club to tournament players feel better that they are playing lines the big boys and girls play


It is rather ludicrous to think that grandmasters are not heavily influenced by the Grandmaster Repertoire series. Gelfand took up 6…Nbd7 in the Najdorf because of Ftacniks’ book, probably more than hundred GMs have taken on Avrukh’s lines from GM1&2, with Yusupov coining the term: “I Avrukhed my opponent”. Ponomariov – Wang Yue in the Slav is a common example of how this happens. Ponomariov won two pawns, but sadly messed up in the technical phase.
Kramnik has openly expressed being inspired by Marin’s books, McShane played Marin’s repertoire for about a year, winning among others against Magnus Carlsen. Anand used one of the lines in his match with Topalov, but gave it his own twist, after Peter Heine Nielsen got infatuated with the books. Delchev used a novelty from Nikos and my book on the Tarrasch against Bacrot.
I really could go on, but I think I have made my main point. Obviously there is a caveat: Although books by Marin and Avrukh on main lines will influence grandmaster practice more than a book on the Open Spanish, Modern Benoni or Tarrasch, it is clear that these books are interesting to grandmasters of the highest level.


just an innocent question: is rebuking criticism on quality chess books in your job description? I have seen you having a go at several reviews on the Quality Chess blog. Doesn't seem a very efficient use of time. You can't please everyone.



I am going to say that GM Aagard is Absolutely right in what he said, regardless of his duty position at quality chess.  He spoke the TRUTH.

You cannot ask him to withhold the truth when it is a glaring one and which seems to be motivated by such an ignorant comment which is being addressed.

Top players are looking into these books, if they are not, their seconds (or their assistants)  are looking into them and them sharing what they find.

I am not even a top GM and I look into all of these books because I compete in correspondence and I don't hire assistants or seconds to survey the opening field.  I have to do all the legwork myself.

If I do that to stay competitive, you better believe top GMs, who live and who sustain themselves and their families by playing chess, you better believe they look into these books.

GM Aagard, well said.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #143 - 01/21/14 at 11:36:06
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tony37 wrote on 01/14/14 at 19:49:44:
by the way, it's fascinating to see how Komodo generally trumps Stockfish (and of course Houdini) in these complicated rook endings with a lot of pawns


Quite true. Analysing such endings using Houdini alone is equivalent to looking for trouble... the engine keeps evaluating those tricky endgames as flat equal, offers very passive approaches, and then suddenly changes his mind and gives them as totally won/lost. Stockfish isn't yet as good as Komodo, but it's constantly improving (I build the engine myself from git, and optimize it to my anhaemic machines specs).
Fortunately enough a lot of people on LSS blindly trust Houdini- else my rating there would be much lower!  Grin
A few days ago, an opponent rated 2310-something offered a draw in a position where I was seriously considering to resign since three or four moves before.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #142 - 01/20/14 at 18:03:18
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/16/14 at 19:00:45:
I am still far from sure if the Marshall is a bullet-proof draw in corr play. There are some lines which are not totally analysed to death yet.

PFREN, what is your opinion generally about the new d3-line with a3, as for example used by Dominguez yesterday against Caruana? I know that this is out of the scope of this thread, but i felt like risking this question!  Smiley

...and yes, that Qe2 system always seemed to me like a notable threat of the Open Spanish, but lately i have been analysing the 9.Be3 line(the Mikhalevski book has a note about one discovery of mine which he neutralised almost, but a slight insignificant plus for White is still there) and i like White's chances, without claiming a theoretically important edge in any means.


This system is quite fashionable at top level recently, so we can assume it does have some punch. Not even sure about Black's best strategy (Bb7, Be6 or Bg4). I've tried this three times at correspondence chess, albeit using the old c2-c3 idea (used several times by Anand) and got nothing at all in all three games. Nc3 seems more appropriate.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #141 - 01/16/14 at 19:00:45
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I am still far from sure if the Marshall is a bullet-proof draw in corr play. There are some lines which are not totally analysed to death yet.

PFREN, what is your opinion generally about the new d3-line with a3, as for example used by Dominguez yesterday against Caruana? I know that this is out of the scope of this thread, but i felt like risking this question!  Smiley

...and yes, that Qe2 system always seemed to me like a notable threat of the Open Spanish, but lately i have been analysing the 9.Be3 line(the Mikhalevski book has a note about one discovery of mine which he neutralised almost, but a slight insignificant plus for White is still there) and i like White's chances, without claiming a theoretically important edge in any means.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #140 - 01/15/14 at 10:44:25
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tony37 wrote on 01/14/14 at 19:49:44:
hi, I can give you lots of lines after 45.h3, but they all don't work (my problem is I started analysing deeply when it was too late), 40...Rc8 was no doubt better
but indeed, you found a good line for white, but I saw 17.Na3 too before you played it and I thought I had completely satisfying options in 15...Qb6 and 16...c5 but I was confident I could manage 17.Na3 and I don't think it's unmanageable but black has to stay alert for many more moves (and now I remember I only saw 20.Rac1 at move 18 or so, so my first analysis was a bit sloppy there)
by the way, it's fascinating to see how Komodo generally trumps Stockfish (and of course Houdini) in these complicated rook endings with a lot of pawns


To be honest, I did not analyse the final position in any great depth. Nor did I claim that 17.Na3 leads to some substantial advantage for white. But I can safely claim that Black's task after that move is certainly not an easy one, and whatever advantage white may have is (IMHO) more substantial than the ones following the 9.Nbd2 mainline.
9.Qe2 is currently not popular, but I think it's rather a matter of fashion.
I have played the Open Ruy a few times as Black, but I was put away by two games: against GM Neil McDonald, where I was somehow able to draw a totally lost rook endgame, and against GM Kotronias, where I was thoroughly prepared, and I was brutally slaugtered without being able to organize any meaningful counterplay.
Regarding correspondence chess, the Marshal Attack is so fooking reliable, that any deviation from it should occur only when Black is desperately seeking a win.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #139 - 01/14/14 at 19:49:44
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hi, I can give you lots of lines after 45.h3, but they all don't work (my problem is I started analysing deeply when it was too late), 40...Rc8 was no doubt better
but indeed, you found a good line for white, but I saw 17.Na3 too before you played it and I thought I had completely satisfying options in 15...Qb6 and 16...c5 but I was confident I could manage 17.Na3 and I don't think it's unmanageable but black has to stay alert for many more moves (and now I remember I only saw 20.Rac1 at move 18 or so, so my first analysis was a bit sloppy there)
by the way, it's fascinating to see how Komodo generally trumps Stockfish (and of course Houdini) in these complicated rook endings with a lot of pawns
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #138 - 01/14/14 at 18:30:05
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Black has several concrete problems to solve, even in lines which are not considered as dangerous anymore.
Here is a game I played at LSS against Tony37. His resignation was kinda surprising, but Black's position was very difficult, anyway.
17.Na3 is not mentioned by Mikhalevski, but it has been played before  at ICCF, and IMO it's white's most logical reaction in this position.

  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #137 - 01/04/14 at 12:27:50
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 01/04/14 at 05:21:21:
Are there any model games for black on open lopez line ???


Do you have any Open Ruy books?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #136 - 01/04/14 at 05:21:21
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Are there any model games for black on open lopez line ???
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #135 - 12/17/13 at 17:35:21
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I think black get problems in this line okies the game was drawn (at last by black)...but white could have won the games as white was a wgm...but she have not seen it as it was a blitz game Cheesy
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #134 - 09/09/13 at 17:05:48
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 09/08/13 at 15:12:23:
So coming back to this tread, what do you guys think about the current theoretical stand of the open Ruy? Has Mr Mikhalevsky made a difference?


I'm sure that some of White's partisans have carefully reviewed Michalevski's work and found what they suppose to be improvements, and that only a few of these, if any, have yet appeared on the board.  So it is too soon to tell what Michalevski's contribution has been.  His book is quite highly regarded, though, and is a must-have for anyone who wants to play this enterprising system.

I think the general opinion of the Open Defense is that it's a reasonable approach for those who like to play with active pieces in open positions, but that it perhaps incurs more risk of outright disadvantage than the best versions of Closed or, for that matter, than the Marshall.  There is no outright refutation that is known (for a long time it was thought that Kasparov's gambit was that), so it is certainly playable.

I think that in amateur chess the Open is a really excellent choice, since one will encounter many feeble Whites who will rapidly cede the initiative.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #133 - 09/08/13 at 15:12:23
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So coming back to this tread, what do you guys think about the current theoretical stand of the open Ruy? Has Mr Mikhalevsky made a difference?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #132 - 07/30/13 at 19:36:40
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gwnn wrote on 07/30/13 at 08:43:52:
ErictheRed wrote on 07/29/13 at 22:06:45:
Sorry if I missed it, but will there be a companion volume published for other 1...e5 lines?

Aagaard has said so, yes. Everything up to and including the Exchange Spanish.


Really? I missed this. With the same author or what? Do you know?

Ben
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #131 - 07/30/13 at 08:43:52
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ErictheRed wrote on 07/29/13 at 22:06:45:
Sorry if I missed it, but will there be a companion volume published for other 1...e5 lines?

Aagaard has said so, yes. Everything up to and including the Exchange Spanish. Sometimes books get published very shortly after they get announced (like the Tromp book or the Pump up your rating book recently).
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #130 - 07/29/13 at 22:09:27
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ErictheRed wrote on 07/29/13 at 22:06:45:
Sorry if I missed it, but will there be a companion volume published for other 1...e5 lines?


Seen nothing of it so far.

Ben
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #129 - 07/29/13 at 22:06:45
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Sorry if I missed it, but will there be a companion volume published for other 1...e5 lines?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #128 - 07/11/13 at 15:55:03
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Glenn Flear gave this book a splendid review in the latest NIC Yearbook.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #127 - 07/11/13 at 08:31:50
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I must say I was seriously mistaken about Mikhalevsky's book. In first instance I had similar misgivings as others here, I thought (a) this gut isn't a very good writer (b) I don't like his choice of variations - he chooses boring variations where black is struggling for equality. Boy was I wrong!
Now going through the book in detail. Yes he does not go for the Dilworth but have you guys looked at his alternative, the "solid" Bf5? Solid from the perspective that black equalizes, but otherwise razor-sharp lines all over the place where black is doing fine and white can easily get in trouble.
The book is packed with theoretical novelties.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #126 - 03/11/13 at 14:54:46
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/11/13 at 12:25:18:
Igor wrote on 02/28/13 at 08:46:22:
Quote:
I see no reason why chess book publishers should not have views and express them about reviews (both those with names affixed and those hiding behind aliases). I am surprised that this offends.


In fact on their blog there is an article every week starting with: "Usually we don't talk about other publishers / reviewers...  BUT..."  Grin


Is this a joke? Probably Smiley

There have been, say 3-4 articles about reviews in 4 years and this is "once a week"? When there are countless reviews for each book?

Anyway, the Dilworth Attack is a fun line and we can discuss about it if you want (wasn't there a recent CBM article by Marin on this, or am i wrong?), but i guess that the author had his reasons not to recommend this one. By the way, i find the critical Rook endgames very instructive and i used this material in one of my lectures and it was great. Rook endgames of this kind has always been a weak spot in my play (and i suspect this this is the same for a lot of club players), so i guess that in practical club play a well-prepared Black player might even have the better practical chances!


touchy touchy, those QC writers  Grin
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #125 - 03/11/13 at 12:25:18
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Igor wrote on 02/28/13 at 08:46:22:
Quote:
I see no reason why chess book publishers should not have views and express them about reviews (both those with names affixed and those hiding behind aliases). I am surprised that this offends.


In fact on their blog there is an article every week starting with: "Usually we don't talk about other publishers / reviewers...  BUT..."  Grin


Is this a joke? Probably Smiley

There have been, say 3-4 articles about reviews in 4 years and this is "once a week"? When there are countless reviews for each book?

Anyway, the Dilworth Attack is a fun line and we can discuss about it if you want (wasn't there a recent CBM article by Marin on this, or am i wrong?), but i guess that the author had his reasons not to recommend this one. By the way, i find the critical Rook endgames very instructive and i used this material in one of my lectures and it was great. Rook endgames of this kind has always been a weak spot in my play (and i suspect this this is the same for a lot of club players), so i guess that in practical club play a well-prepared Black player might even have the better practical chances!
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #124 - 03/02/13 at 13:46:41
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In my data base, White scores "normally," about 54%, after 11...Nxf2 12.Rxf2 f6 13.exf6 Bxf2+ 14.Kxf2 Qxf6 15.Nf1!.  But he scores somewhat better than normal, 59%, after 11...Bf5. 

Even so, I assume Mikailevski found some good ideas for Black after 11...Bf5.  That Dilworth ending would have been a tedious subject for a repertoire book. 

Not being a great technician (ha ha), I usually try to win with a few more pieces on the board.  Not everyone wants to go from the opening to the ending.  Also, I think that that Dilworth ending is easier to win with the minor pieces than with the rook.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #123 - 02/28/13 at 14:45:56
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MartinC wrote on 02/28/13 at 13:07:28:
I think the repitoire books thing is down to what sells.

There are actually quite a few basically complete surveys getting written but many of them - Scherbakov's noteboom book say - are getting presented as repitoire books.

That's probably down to managing expectations. A repitoire book can safely cut out entire lines when they're not really theoretically relevant. A 'complete' book? You'd get endless, violent, complaints..... Never mind that it'd probably be more useful Smiley

On another note, excellent that they no doubt are, surely the impact of the GM repitoire books on specifically GM level chess is inherently limited?

Ideas of course but the detail is such an obvious, public, target.... Once you get a level of two below that and the amount of time for prep decreases its another matter.


I got some everyman books from around 2000. They are fraction in size compared to present chess books and cover far more ground. One thing I do regret is that repertoire books tend to narrow the scope down to a few moves. Sometimes I prefer to have some options even if it means playing some slightly less optimal move.

  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #122 - 02/28/13 at 14:39:31
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dfan wrote on 02/28/13 at 13:50:14:
Schaakhamster wrote on 02/28/13 at 12:16:33:
The problem is that the Dilworth can be "avoided" on the way to the main tabiya which would mean including either another mainline reply or playing that worse endgame after 9. Nbd2 Bc5

He already gets all the way up to 9.c3 Bc5 10.Nbd2 O-O 11.Bc2, where 11...Nxf2 would be the Dilworth, so he's already dealt with all the lines that would avoid it anyway.


A bit curious. But perhaps he felt something else was more suitable. The Dilworth is a very interesting variation but is also pretty complex. Perhaps he felt that playing it is way easier then getting theoretical satisfying positions. 
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #121 - 02/28/13 at 13:50:14
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Schaakhamster wrote on 02/28/13 at 12:16:33:
The problem is that the Dilworth can be "avoided" on the way to the main tabiya which would mean including either another mainline reply or playing that worse endgame after 9. Nbd2 Bc5

He already gets all the way up to 9.c3 Bc5 10.Nbd2 O-O 11.Bc2, where 11...Nxf2 would be the Dilworth, so he's already dealt with all the lines that would avoid it anyway.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #120 - 02/28/13 at 13:07:28
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I think the repitoire books thing is down to what sells.

There are actually quite a few basically complete surveys getting written but many of them - Scherbakov's noteboom book say - are getting presented as repitoire books.

That's probably down to managing expectations. A repitoire book can safely cut out entire lines when they're not really theoretically relevant. A 'complete' book? You'd get endless, violent, complaints..... Never mind that it'd probably be more useful Smiley

On another note, excellent that they no doubt are, surely the impact of the GM repitoire books on specifically GM level chess is inherently limited?

Ideas of course but the detail is such an obvious, public, target.... Once you get a level of two below that and the amount of time for prep decreases its another matter.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #119 - 02/28/13 at 12:21:47
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Igor wrote on 02/28/13 at 08:46:22:
Quote:
I see no reason why chess book publishers should not have views and express them about reviews (both those with names affixed and those hiding behind aliases). I am surprised that this offends.


In fact on their blog there is an article every week starting with: "Usually we don't talk about other publishers / reviewers...  BUT..."  Grin


I giggled when he wrote something along the lines of my book got 6/6 but Avrukh's only got 5/6 and it's better then my book. Some real passive aggressiveness going on there.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #118 - 02/28/13 at 12:16:33
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Bibs wrote on 02/28/13 at 08:11:27:
Schaakhamster wrote on 02/28/13 at 08:04:44:
I'm not offended, just seems time consuming which could be spend on producing more books  Grin


True, true! Am surprised the amount of time on that blog responding to the likes of 'Gilchrist is a legend' about precisely when the postman is coming.
Would probably help them if folk stopped pestering and just let 'em get on with it.

I was disappointed that the Dilworth wasn't included. Their right of course, I just wanted to learn about it, a line that has intrigued me. Ah well.


The problem is that the Dilworth can be "avoided" on the way to the main tabiya which would mean including either another mainline reply or playing that worse endgame after 9. Nbd2 Bc5
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #117 - 02/28/13 at 08:46:22
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Quote:
I see no reason why chess book publishers should not have views and express them about reviews (both those with names affixed and those hiding behind aliases). I am surprised that this offends.


In fact on their blog there is an article every week starting with: "Usually we don't talk about other publishers / reviewers...  BUT..."  Grin
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #116 - 02/28/13 at 08:11:27
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Schaakhamster wrote on 02/28/13 at 08:04:44:
Bibs wrote on 02/28/13 at 04:34:31:
Schaakhamster wrote on 02/27/13 at 20:23:58:
just an innocent question: is rebuking criticism on quality chess books in your job description? I have seen you having a go at several reviews on the Quality Chess blog. Doesn't seem a very efficient use of time. You can't please everyone.


I see no reason why chess book publishers should not have views and express them about reviews (both those with names affixed and those hiding behind aliases). I am surprised that this offends.
Disagreeing is not "rebuking".
Somebody here erroneously suggested that GMs take no note of QC texts. Aagaard disagreed and provided multiple examples. Aside from those stated I know of another top 10 player who is familiar with QC work from a personal conversation.
Readers here have views, writers have views, publishers have views. All express politely, respectfully and all is well.

(And no, I have nothing to do with QC at all. I last went to Scotland 28 years ago. It rained every day.)


I'm not offended, just seems time consuming which could be spend on producing more books  Grin


True, true! Am surprised the amount of time on that blog responding to the likes of 'Gilchrist is a legend' about precisely when the postman is coming.
Would probably help them if folk stopped pestering and just let 'em get on with it.

I was disappointed that the Dilworth wasn't included. Their right of course, I just wanted to learn about it, a line that has intrigued me. Ah well.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #115 - 02/28/13 at 08:04:44
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Bibs wrote on 02/28/13 at 04:34:31:
Schaakhamster wrote on 02/27/13 at 20:23:58:
just an innocent question: is rebuking criticism on quality chess books in your job description? I have seen you having a go at several reviews on the Quality Chess blog. Doesn't seem a very efficient use of time. You can't please everyone.


I see no reason why chess book publishers should not have views and express them about reviews (both those with names affixed and those hiding behind aliases). I am surprised that this offends.
Disagreeing is not "rebuking".
Somebody here erroneously suggested that GMs take no note of QC texts. Aagaard disagreed and provided multiple examples. Aside from those stated I know of another top 10 player who is familiar with QC work from a personal conversation.
Readers here have views, writers have views, publishers have views. All express politely, respectfully and all is well.

(And no, I have nothing to do with QC at all. I last went to Scotland 28 years ago. It rained every day.)


I'm not offended, just seems time consuming which could be spend on producing more books  Grin
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #114 - 02/28/13 at 04:34:31
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Schaakhamster wrote on 02/27/13 at 20:23:58:
Jacob Aagaard wrote on 02/27/13 at 10:54:09:
barnaby wrote on 02/27/13 at 02:01:01:
[quote author=5052555A340 link=1084036321/105#105 date=1361928483][quote author=7E7069797A707D7279696E1C0 link=1084036321/103#103 date=1361924779]

last thing, it is called a gm repertoire but the majority of people buying it will be well below that level ... keep it real, will ya?

gms these days aint waiting for books and then playing those repertoires at high levels

please ... the title is to make people that are club to tournament players feel better that they are playing lines the big boys and girls play


It is rather ludicrous to think that grandmasters are not heavily influenced by the Grandmaster Repertoire series. Gelfand took up 6…Nbd7 in the Najdorf because of Ftacniks’ book, probably more than hundred GMs have taken on Avrukh’s lines from GM1&2, with Yusupov coining the term: “I Avrukhed my opponent”. Ponomariov – Wang Yue in the Slav is a common example of how this happens. Ponomariov won two pawns, but sadly messed up in the technical phase.
Kramnik has openly expressed being inspired by Marin’s books, McShane played Marin’s repertoire for about a year, winning among others against Magnus Carlsen. Anand used one of the lines in his match with Topalov, but gave it his own twist, after Peter Heine Nielsen got infatuated with the books. Delchev used a novelty from Nikos and my book on the Tarrasch against Bacrot.
I really could go on, but I think I have made my main point. Obviously there is a caveat: Although books by Marin and Avrukh on main lines will influence grandmaster practice more than a book on the Open Spanish, Modern Benoni or Tarrasch, it is clear that these books are interesting to grandmasters of the highest level.


just an innocent question: is rebuking criticism on quality chess books in your job description? I have seen you having a go at several reviews on the Quality Chess blog. Doesn't seem a very efficient use of time. You can't please everyone.


I see no reason why chess book publishers should not have views and express them about reviews (both those with names affixed and those hiding behind aliases). I am surprised that this offends.
Disagreeing is not "rebuking".
Somebody here erroneously suggested that GMs take no note of QC texts. Aagaard disagreed and provided multiple examples. Aside from those stated I know of another top 10 player who is familiar with QC work from a personal conversation.
Readers here have views, writers have views, publishers have views. All express politely, respectfully and all is well.

(And no, I have nothing to do with QC at all. I last went to Scotland 28 years ago. It rained every day.)
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #113 - 02/27/13 at 22:08:48
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My impression is that The Open Spanish isn't as good as its sister GMxx books. Maybe it's because of limitations in the opening itself. Anyway, the author states it avoids the Spanish torture but most mainlines are just equal or worse endings as far as I understand browsing through. Ok, it is life of chess, but I simply hoped for more... I haven't played or analyzed anything really in the OS for a long time so I was just happy to have something to read.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #112 - 02/27/13 at 20:23:58
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 02/27/13 at 10:54:09:
barnaby wrote on 02/27/13 at 02:01:01:
[quote author=5052555A340 link=1084036321/105#105 date=1361928483][quote author=7E7069797A707D7279696E1C0 link=1084036321/103#103 date=1361924779]

last thing, it is called a gm repertoire but the majority of people buying it will be well below that level ... keep it real, will ya?

gms these days aint waiting for books and then playing those repertoires at high levels

please ... the title is to make people that are club to tournament players feel better that they are playing lines the big boys and girls play


It is rather ludicrous to think that grandmasters are not heavily influenced by the Grandmaster Repertoire series. Gelfand took up 6…Nbd7 in the Najdorf because of Ftacniks’ book, probably more than hundred GMs have taken on Avrukh’s lines from GM1&2, with Yusupov coining the term: “I Avrukhed my opponent”. Ponomariov – Wang Yue in the Slav is a common example of how this happens. Ponomariov won two pawns, but sadly messed up in the technical phase.
Kramnik has openly expressed being inspired by Marin’s books, McShane played Marin’s repertoire for about a year, winning among others against Magnus Carlsen. Anand used one of the lines in his match with Topalov, but gave it his own twist, after Peter Heine Nielsen got infatuated with the books. Delchev used a novelty from Nikos and my book on the Tarrasch against Bacrot.
I really could go on, but I think I have made my main point. Obviously there is a caveat: Although books by Marin and Avrukh on main lines will influence grandmaster practice more than a book on the Open Spanish, Modern Benoni or Tarrasch, it is clear that these books are interesting to grandmasters of the highest level.


just an innocent question: is rebuking criticism on quality chess books in your job description? I have seen you having a go at several reviews on the Quality Chess blog. Doesn't seem a very efficient use of time. You can't please everyone.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #111 - 02/27/13 at 19:42:18
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 02/27/13 at 10:54:09:
It is rather ludicrous to think that grandmasters are not heavily influenced by the Grandmaster Repertoire series. Gelfand took up 6…Nbd7 in the Najdorf because of Ftacniks’ book, probably more than hundred GMs have taken on Avrukh’s lines from GM1&2, with Yusupov coining the term: “I Avrukhed my opponent”. Ponomariov – Wang Yue in the Slav is a common example of how this happens. Ponomariov won two pawns, but sadly messed up in the technical phase.
Kramnik has openly expressed being inspired by Marin’s books, McShane played Marin’s repertoire for about a year, winning among others against Magnus Carlsen. Anand used one of the lines in his match with Topalov, but gave it his own twist, after Peter Heine Nielsen got infatuated with the books. Delchev used a novelty from Nikos and my book on the Tarrasch against Bacrot.
I really could go on, but I think I have made my main point. Obviously there is a caveat: Although books by Marin and Avrukh on main lines will influence grandmaster practice more than a book on the Open Spanish, Modern Benoni or Tarrasch, it is clear that these books are interesting to grandmasters of the highest level.

I wonder why today we have all these grandmaster repertoire series while 15 years ago I remember we had mostly openingbooks covering 1 specific opening in detail. Is it because writing a complete book about an opening has become impossible with the growing amount of theory? Is it fashion? Is it because readers are more interested in getting a quick playable repertoire instead of knowing the last detail in a long forgotten sideline?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #110 - 02/27/13 at 14:26:01
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barnaby wrote on 02/27/13 at 02:01:01:
I did not assign it a B- minus for that reason.

I have not actually divulged any reason yet for why i gave it that rating


Then what was the point of posting "B-" in the first place?

barnaby wrote on 02/27/13 at 02:01:01:
was actually going to but now will not


Oh, dear me.  Now I shall never know.

But the Riga is not good chess; there is no need to mention it in a repertoire book for the Black pieces.  As for the Dilworth, it's a repertoire book, you know?  Not a compendium.

They call it a GM repertoire book because it is of sufficient breadth, depth and precision to form the basis of a top-level repertoire in the given opening. 

@Flaneur Bleu: The Dilworth does not lose a piece.  Consult your sources, or see here:

https://ruylopez.chesstheory.org/p.php?z=pt&a=16838&b=0&c=16838&d=0



  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #109 - 02/27/13 at 13:35:42
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barnaby wrote on 02/27/13 at 02:01:01:
dfan wrote on 02/27/13 at 01:28:03:
That said, I don't see the rationale for assigning a repertoire book a B- because it covers different lines from the ones you were hoping for.

I did not assign it a B- minus for that reason.

I have not actually divulged any reason yet for why i gave it that rating,

OK. Your comment consisted of two criticisms and a grade so I assumed they were related.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #108 - 02/27/13 at 10:54:09
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barnaby wrote on 02/27/13 at 02:01:01:
[quote author=5052555A340 link=1084036321/105#105 date=1361928483][quote author=7E7069797A707D7279696E1C0 link=1084036321/103#103 date=1361924779]

last thing, it is called a gm repertoire but the majority of people buying it will be well below that level ... keep it real, will ya?

gms these days aint waiting for books and then playing those repertoires at high levels

please ... the title is to make people that are club to tournament players feel better that they are playing lines the big boys and girls play


It is rather ludicrous to think that grandmasters are not heavily influenced by the Grandmaster Repertoire series. Gelfand took up 6…Nbd7 in the Najdorf because of Ftacniks’ book, probably more than hundred GMs have taken on Avrukh’s lines from GM1&2, with Yusupov coining the term: “I Avrukhed my opponent”. Ponomariov – Wang Yue in the Slav is a common example of how this happens. Ponomariov won two pawns, but sadly messed up in the technical phase.
Kramnik has openly expressed being inspired by Marin’s books, McShane played Marin’s repertoire for about a year, winning among others against Magnus Carlsen. Anand used one of the lines in his match with Topalov, but gave it his own twist, after Peter Heine Nielsen got infatuated with the books. Delchev used a novelty from Nikos and my book on the Tarrasch against Bacrot.
I really could go on, but I think I have made my main point. Obviously there is a caveat: Although books by Marin and Avrukh on main lines will influence grandmaster practice more than a book on the Open Spanish, Modern Benoni or Tarrasch, it is clear that these books are interesting to grandmasters of the highest level.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #107 - 02/27/13 at 02:01:01
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dfan wrote on 02/27/13 at 01:28:03:
Blue Flaneur wrote on 02/27/13 at 00:26:19:
I'm pretty sure the Dilworth loses a piece. I don't why it would be included in a repertoire made for GMs.

Well, the GM who wrote the book has played it 7 out of 8 times he has reached that position.

That said, I don't see the rationale for assigning a repertoire book a B- because it covers different lines from the ones you were hoping for.



I did not assign it a B- minus for that reason.

I have not actually divulged any reason yet for why i gave it that rating, was actually going to but now will not since you people so hyper sensitive about banal stuff.

sheesh


last thing, it is called a gm repertoire but the majority of people buying it will be well below that level ... keep it real, will ya?

gms these days aint waiting for books and then playing those repertoires at high levels

please ... the title is to make people that are club to tournament players feel better that they are playing lines the big boys and girls play
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #106 - 02/27/13 at 01:58:57
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Blue Flaneur wrote on 02/27/13 at 00:26:19:
I'm pretty sure the Dilworth loses a piece. I don't why it would be included in a repertoire made for GMs.



Really, it loses a piece?

hahahahaha

with regard to the riga, i have no problem if he not mention it, but he did, gave it short shrift and not even the best lines against it, which would only take another paragraph .. and that makes little sense

and when i am ready for a deeper review i will do it on my own terms if at all, not yours and i do not owe you or anybody else here anything

now _____ off
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #105 - 02/27/13 at 01:28:03
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Blue Flaneur wrote on 02/27/13 at 00:26:19:
I'm pretty sure the Dilworth loses a piece. I don't why it would be included in a repertoire made for GMs.

Well, the GM who wrote the book has played it 7 out of 8 times he has reached that position.

That said, I don't see the rationale for assigning a repertoire book a B- because it covers different lines from the ones you were hoping for.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #104 - 02/27/13 at 00:32:30
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And I had no idea what the Riga variation was until I looked it up a minute ago. Why would he need to talk about that variation?

It's a repertoire book for GMs not a primer for all the variations of the open. If you could list the mistakes in the analysis then it would be much more helpful then your silly complaining and the -B grade.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #103 - 02/27/13 at 00:26:19
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I'm pretty sure the Dilworth loses a piece. I don't why it would be included in a repertoire made for GMs.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #102 - 02/26/13 at 18:28:12
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Mild disappointment in this book.  Barely even mentions Riga variation (only one quick blurb in chapter on center attack) and omission of even mentioning Dilworth attack seems remiss seeing as how the author used it frequently and has not used his recommended repertoire move.

Grade: B-

  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #101 - 02/26/13 at 15:27:56
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Yeah, in my database Mikhalevski played 11...Nxf2 seven times and 11...f5 once. I was kinda hoping for the Dilworth. There is some discussion of it in Flear's "Open Ruy Lopez" from 2000.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #100 - 02/26/13 at 14:58:36
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Yeah, for long time, I had that book in my collection.  A little beige-colored thing, in German.  In those days, 9.Qe2 was considered the big threat to the Open, and the stregth of 9.Nbd2 was unknown.

But 11...Bf5 is a bit of a departure from modern practice, it would seem.  The last time this was popular was in the mid-90s. The most recent games I have are Joergensen - Hjorth ICCF 2012; Dragun - Kolosowski, Warsaw 2012; and Quesada Perez - Milos, Mende 2009.  Also, I don't discover any games with Michailevski as Black.

  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #99 - 02/25/13 at 15:57:58
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Sounds like Mikhalevski is "kickin' it old school" or some such -- for one thing, 9. c3 Bc5 10. Nbd2 0-0 11. Bc2 Bf5 was recommended by Larsen in a little repertoire-type book he wrote in the 1960s.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #98 - 02/25/13 at 04:43:28
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Just received GR 13. I noticed that in the c3 lines, it recommends Bc5 and Bf5 over  Bc5/f5 or the Dillworth. Was this a surprise?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #97 - 01/08/13 at 21:44:01
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i really look forward to this work and hope he has some new and strong ideas for black in the 7th chapter on sidelines when white plays the allegedly sub-optimal 6.Re1

i have found this line to be more difficult for me as black (otb) than most previous books suggest and against strong play find it almost impossible to ever generate any active play for black
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #96 - 01/08/13 at 19:47:51
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #95 - 11/08/12 at 15:29:23
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Mortal Games wrote on 02/25/12 at 10:17:48:
Quote:
Are you sure? I can't find anything about this book on their website...


Look on the blog, summer/autumn on the second board.  Wink

The blog now says January 2013.
It seems to me that there hasn't been coverage of the Open Ruy for a very long time
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #94 - 03/15/12 at 09:37:47
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Grin So true. I do not know anymore what is autumn because there are only two seasons, winter and summer in Europe. In south of Europe now March is summer! Spring went to Arab nations. I guess October is a good start to look for the book in the traditional four seasons calendar, the only problem is that it is not valid anymore.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #93 - 03/11/12 at 15:53:41
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/11/12 at 04:27:50:
Mortal Games wrote on 02/25/12 at 10:17:48:
Quote:
Are you sure? I can't find anything about this book on their website...


Look on the blog, summer/autumn on the second board.  Wink


I am still trying to understand what that exactly means. Summer and autumn are subjective time frames. In Canada it can snow in April, which is considered spring but can feel like winter. In the UK the temperatures and climate are basically like winter for all 12 months.

And then of course in the Southern Hemisphere, summer/autumn probably ranges from November to April.


Ah, so true:)
But being mired in such a depressing place yields great poetry and music tho.

They are in Scotland. So, imagine that they mean in Scotland.
Weather-wise,  it lashes down all the time, is bleak, cloudy and grey, and a generally dreary existence up there throughout the calendar year.
Popular pastimes up there: necking irn-bru, hating English and mainlining heroin.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #92 - 03/11/12 at 04:27:50
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Mortal Games wrote on 02/25/12 at 10:17:48:
Quote:
Are you sure? I can't find anything about this book on their website...


Look on the blog, summer/autumn on the second board.  Wink


I am still trying to understand what that exactly means. Summer and autumn are subjective time frames. In Canada it can snow in April, which is considered spring but can feel like winter. In the UK the temperatures and climate are basically like winter for all 12 months.

And then of course in the Southern Hemisphere, summer/autumn probably ranges from November to April.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #91 - 03/10/12 at 08:23:44
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Markovich wrote on 02/24/12 at 19:19:44:
Mihalevski's work in combination with Aagaard and Ntirlis's on the Tarrasch would make a very fine classical repertoire. Open Spanish+Tarrasch was my repertoire for a long time, in fact.

You may be interested to hear that this repertoire is exactly where I'm going. The Tarrasch book is amazing.

For me black's main challenge with the Open remains what to do against 9.Nbd2. The second challenge is what to do against a weaker player going 6.Re1.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #90 - 02/25/12 at 10:17:48
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Quote:
Are you sure? I can't find anything about this book on their website...


Look on the blog, summer/autumn on the second board.  Wink
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #89 - 02/24/12 at 19:19:44
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Mihalevski's work in combination with Aagaard and Ntirlis's on the Tarrasch would make a very fine classical repertoire. Open Spanish+Tarrasch was my repertoire for a long time, in fact.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #88 - 02/24/12 at 15:27:22
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Mortal Games wrote on 01/13/12 at 16:57:40:
Grandmaster Repertoire X – The Open Spanish by Viktor Mikhalevski is announced for summer/autumn by Quality Chess.


Are you sure? I can't find anything about this book on their website...
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #87 - 02/23/12 at 13:00:57
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Ametanoitos wrote on 04/06/11 at 12:14:27:
He recommends 2 lines against Nbd2. He plays Nc5 and g6 in his first recommendation. He ommits the quick Nd4 line (a known idea where White sacs the e5 pawn) but even worse his main line there stops in a winning position for White! In his second suggestion (a modern Nxb3 line) He says nothing about the critical plan with a quick Re1 for White when he stops the main idea ...f6 of Black. Then Black should play "a la Short" with ...a5 but this plan is not even mentioned by Martin! Black is again slightly worse there, but following Martin's recommendations you are not going to get just a "+/=" but probably a "+/-".

Also his recommendation against Keres' quick Qe2 line looks supsect to me. OK, Black may have adequate counterplay somehow but again Martin fails to spot the critical continuations!

This man has done some nice things in the past. So, i don't think that he is bad at what he is doing. I mean that he can do something good, but the last products by him are at least awfull! He claims that he doesn't do them for GMs to see but (as i am an experienced coach myself) the way he presents the material and his choices of the lines are even worse for a normal club player. I regret every cent i have spent on his recent DVDs.

Do you want more details?



Can you give the exact lines?
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #86 - 01/13/12 at 16:57:40
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Grandmaster Repertoire X – The Open Spanish by Viktor Mikhalevski is announced for summer/autumn by Quality Chess.
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #85 - 10/04/11 at 11:54:03
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Another one that may be of interest and related to your previous analyses:

Here 13... Bb4?! is played (you give 13...Rc8).. Well, speaking of 13...Rc8 and prolonging with 14. Nc3 c5! (your mark) what about 15. Bxd5!?, i.e...

White have the bishops' pair and += is evident, imho..
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #84 - 10/04/11 at 11:18:34
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And look how the big guys play this:  Wink
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #83 - 10/04/11 at 11:01:52
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 10/04/11 at 10:46:48:
Thanks again Vass.

So 9.Nbd2 in the Open Ruy is +=?

Does the forum agree?

Must admit I've had problems deciding what to do against 9.Nbd2. For me it's definitely critical.

And then you're heading for 9...Nc5 10. c3 Bf5!? I suppose..  Smiley
I've found 5 corr.games after 10...Bf5. All ended 1-0. In 3 of all 5 white played 11.Bc2.. And one of this three enters into our previously discussed variation:

Edit: I suppose 21...Nc5? is an 'email error'.. Though even if 21...Nb6 was played white would have been in better position.  Wink
Edit: You mention 15...Be7!? in your analysis (after transposing) which is better than 15...Qd7 and next 16...Nd8?! (intending c7-c5-c4), of course..
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #82 - 10/04/11 at 10:46:48
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Thanks again Vass.

So 9.Nbd2 in the Open Ruy is +=?

Does the forum agree?

Must admit I've had problems deciding what to do against 9.Nbd2. For me it's definitely critical.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #81 - 10/04/11 at 10:17:12
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 10/04/11 at 08:22:02:
Thanks again Vass.

I have played the Breyer a long time ago (as a youngster) and still play a Breyer-like setup against 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 (5. ... d6 6.c3 g6 7.Nbd2 Bg7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Re1 b5 10.Bc2 Bb7 followed by Nc6-b8-d7).
It is interesting that you recommend it but would be quite a big and time-consuming change for me, and I would have to work out what to do after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.d4. Is there a good repertoire book available on the Breyer?

To stay with this thread: so you are convinced white is better after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.de5: Be6 9.Nbd2?
Would black be able to (almost?) equalise with 9. ... Bc5?

If you mean the resulting endgame after 10. Nxe4... my answer is 'almost'. There are some interesting games here. To name a few: "Rybka" - "Ikarus X" (Internet 2008) where Rybka chose 13. Bf4 and didn't win. Then comes Z.Hracek 2595 - D.Mastrovasilis 2574 (Istanbul 2003) where white were on the right path with 13. Nxe4 Bb6 but not for long.. The truth for white to seek is somewhere here:
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #80 - 10/04/11 at 08:22:02
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Thanks again Vass.

I have played the Breyer a long time ago (as a youngster) and still play a Breyer-like setup against 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 (5. ... d6 6.c3 g6 7.Nbd2 Bg7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Re1 b5 10.Bc2 Bb7 followed by Nc6-b8-d7).
It is interesting that you recommend it but would be quite a big and time-consuming change for me, and I would have to work out what to do after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.d4. Is there a good repertoire book available on the Breyer?

To stay with this thread: so you are convinced white is better after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.de5: Be6 9.Nbd2?
Would black be able to (almost?) equalise with 9. ... Bc5?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #79 - 10/04/11 at 07:41:54
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 10/03/11 at 08:47:16:
Are you a Lopez player yourself? If yes, what line(s) do you play?

A Ruy Lopez line that I always liked for black is Breyer. May I suggest you to try it if you like it. (I really don't like your tries in Riga and Bf5-variation in the Open Spanish.) Even Magnus Carlsen gave it a try. Look at some lines and tell me if you like what you see. And if you want we can renew another Breyer thread in this beloved forum, or even start a new one.  Wink
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #78 - 10/03/11 at 12:20:09
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You're absolutely right again Vass and I'll follow your advice.

Thanks.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #77 - 10/03/11 at 11:48:45
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Yes, I play Ruy Lopez but with white..
And yes, it seems you Never Give Up trying to involve me in an analysis of a line that I see is completely busted..
And yes, it's busted! No way of salvation.. This 16.Rxe1 and 17.Kg1-plan is a significant example of how one has to prolong the line in a corr.game analysis if feeling 'there is something there'..  Wink
My advice for you is to leave such offbeat variations and stick to the main lines. There is some significant cover subtitle on the Avrukh's two volumes of "GM Repertoire 1.d4" which states: "Tired of bad positions? Try the main lines!" and below the trademark "Quality Chess".  Cool
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #76 - 10/03/11 at 08:47:16
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Thanks a lot for this Vass.

Two questions to you:

1.Are you a Lopez player yourself? If yes, what line(s) do you play?

2.You're saying I never give up ... however ... have a look at:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1228270377/all

and in particular Aiorla's post on there of 10/08/10.

The Riga variation of the Lopez has been my pet line for about 10 years. I got good results with it and definitely scored > 50%. However with some truly brillant, amazing and unfortunate analyses on this forum this magic line has been busted now, I'm afraid. This is a shame since it's more than 100 years old, it has been "busted" several times in the past, but always survived after improvements were found. This most recent bust is however a very tough nut to crack, and may be the end of the line ...   

The main line of the Riga goes 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 ed4: 7.Re1 d5 8.Nd4: Bd6! 9.Nc6: Bh2:+! 10.Kh1! Qh4 11.Re4:+ de4: 12.Qd8:+ Qd8: 13.Nd8: Kd8: 14.Kh2: Be6. This endgame has been extensively analysed in an article in NIC yearbook 85 and is definitely doable for black. Most of the numerous games I played with it ended in a draw, I won at least 5, and lost only one. By the present state of affairs the Berger line however (proposed by Berger in 1909!), 8.Bg5! seems to lead to disaster for black, if white knows what he's doing. 

It would be very much appreciated if you have a go at this. This is no easy matter, and the lines are pretty forced,  so if you're unsuccessful (if you cannot find an improvement for black) it' s no big deal. The analyses are quite fun. 
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #75 - 10/01/11 at 06:32:08
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Yes, this 18...0-0! seems healthy. It seems you Never Give Up...  Wink
Anyway, when playing this position OTB (I see you're deep in and you'll do it no matter what) look out for positions that can arise after f2-f4-f5 when your knight is on e6 (I went through some of them during my analyses) or positions like this one:

Although objectively equal...there's some poison in such positions (if my feeling is right)..  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #74 - 09/30/11 at 15:11:18
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You're a genius Vass!

After publishing this lot I have analysed this position further with my teammates  and one of them pointed the finger at your Nf5! - a very good move indeed - white is better here.
However:
After 15.Nbd4 Be7 16.b4 Nd4: 17.Nd4: Ne6 18.Qd3: 0-0(!) white is very much entangled and black has sufficient compensation for the pawn after 19.Qe3 a5! or 19.Qf3 Qf3: 20.Nf3: a5! 21.Bd2 ab4: 22.cb4: Ra3 23.Rfc1 Rd8 followed by ... g5.
With my teammates I analysed this further and we came to the conclusion that with this clever pawn sac black is fine.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #73 - 09/30/11 at 13:50:22
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 09/30/11 at 11:10:00:
Please have a look at my post of 01/31/11 at 16:33:25 - this provides a complete extensive analysis of the interesting Bf5!?.
It's not easy at all for white to achieve something against this move.
In an OTB game (upcoming!) if I throw it at them it will have the additional benefit of a large surprise value.

I've spotted it.. Yes, you've made an analysis of this line.. It's evident from the job you've done that you really like this Bf5-setup.. In your remarks you put !-mark to 13.Nb3.. Then how come that you missed such an obvious move?!..  Shocked Following your main line:

So far so good.. And now 18. Nf5! I said "carefully"..in my previous post. As a corr.chess player I've learned one thing - the first engine lines aren't always the best.. One has to have a feel for chess positions.. I've recently read an interview with one of the best corr.chess players in the world.. And he says that he uses the engine only to see the wide range of moves he can play in a position so that he can avoid blunders. The rest is the feel for the given position and the experience. This can be applied for this concrete position, too.. What we got here? Black not castled, rescuing to lose the d-pawn.. Not even a chance to fight for the white e5-pawn.. The only task for white is to find the right moves. Hence +=, at least.. Wink
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #72 - 09/30/11 at 11:10:00
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Please have a look at my post of 01/31/11 at 16:33:25 - this provides a complete extensive analysis of the interesting Bf5!?.
It's not easy at all for white to achieve something against this move.
In an OTB game (upcoming!) if I throw it at them it will have the additional benefit of a large surprise value.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #71 - 09/30/11 at 10:34:00
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 09/30/11 at 09:27:47:
I would need to look this up but I do remember it is mentioned in Flear who gives it as marginally better for white but not really to worry about.

Vass - if you've got some more time can I ask you your valued expert opinion about another very critical (and interesting) line which I'm sure will be played at least once in the coming season: the 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.de5: Be6 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 Bf5!? - see extended analyses earlier in this thread? 

Always prolong the lines when you feel that there's something there, NGU! Always!
I've read this thread carefully and saw that you followed a game (maybe unconscious, though you mentioned Khmelniker in a previous post) which is very interesting. Piotr Bobras 2565 - Ilya Khmelniker 2443 (Bad Wiessee, Germany 2008) goes like this:

So far so good.. And here you say "13. cxd4.. What else?!" (Btw 13. Nxd4 played in this game is the same.)
There's always else.. Look at 13. Nb3!? very, very carefully!.. I will leave you to do this by yourself.  Wink
I've played so many games as white in Ruy Lopez.. White does the same everytime. The scheme is known for centuries. Nothing exceptional, nothing unusual.. While here 11.a4 seems awful - giving away your bishop for a beast?! With 10... Bf5!? you achieved what?! Leaving your precious d-pawn with no proper defence.. Why 11. Nd4 then? To help you defending it?.. Naaah.. Exchange the B's and your d-pawn is vulnerable. Then we'll look at this d-file. You know...Spanish torture never ends!..  Smiley
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #70 - 09/30/11 at 09:27:47
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I would need to look this up but I do remember it is mentioned in Flear who gives it as marginally better for white but not really to worry about.

Vass - if you've got some more time can I ask you your valued expert opinion about another very critical (and interesting) line which I'm sure will be played at least once in the coming season: the 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.de5: Be6 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 Bf5!? - see extended analyses earlier in this thread?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #69 - 09/30/11 at 07:58:52
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 09/29/11 at 13:45:05:
I recommend against 9.Qe2: 9. ... Bc5 10.Be3 0-0 11.Rd1 Re8!?, a very interesting idea of Kortchnoi.   

But don't forget that after 9...Bc5 white has 10.Nbd2 which is better imho.  Wink
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #68 - 09/29/11 at 13:45:05
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I recommend against 9.Qe2: 9. ... Bc5 10.Be3 0-0 11.Rd1 Re8!?, a very interesting idea of Kortchnoi.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #67 - 07/11/11 at 13:21:36
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/11/11 at 12:32:46:
Oh, really?

And do you like to see it or do you prefer playing against the alternatives?

I like it okay, and my results are good: two wins against 1700-ish players and one loss against a 2600 (I was probably going to lose that one no matter what Smiley).

My main concern with the line, and I am probably overthinking this, is playing for a win against lower-ranked players. My main line (from Flear and Krasenkov) is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Qe2 Be7 10.Rd1 0-0 11.c4 bxc4 12.Bxc4 Bc5 13.Be3 Bxe3 14.Qxe3 Qb8 15.Bb3 Na5 (one of the games vs a 1700 actually got this far) and now if White plays 16.Bxd5 it seems that 16...Bxd5 17.Rxd5 Qxb2 18.Qd4 is fairly forced, which looks very drawish.

So I should probably either 1) look at some other ideas such as 12...Qd7 or 2) stop worrying about it Smiley and assume that if I'm a better player than White, I can beat him in the endgame after 18...Qxd4.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #66 - 07/11/11 at 12:44:58
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/11/11 at 09:45:44:
I'm somehow in love with the Keres-Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Qe2 ([B81]). But that seems to be totally out of fashion?  Cry

Zwischenzugzwang


It's very respectable and good and there seems to be no obvious reason why it's out of fashion. Flear rightly mentions it's one of more difficult lines for black to meet.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #65 - 07/11/11 at 12:32:46
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Oh, really?

And do you like to see it or do you prefer playing against the alternatives?
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #64 - 07/11/11 at 12:12:04
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/11/11 at 09:45:44:
I'm somehow in love with the Keres-Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Qe2 ([B81]). But that seems to be totally out of fashion?  Cry

Zwischenzugzwang

At the 1800 level, I seem to face 9.Qe2 around half the time (of the times that White knows 6.d4, that is).
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #63 - 07/11/11 at 11:00:07
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Matemax wrote on 07/11/11 at 10:13:22:
Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/11/11 at 09:45:44:
I'm somehow in love with the Keres-Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Qe2 ([B81]). But that seems to be totally out of fashion?  Cry

Zwischenzugzwang

somewhere C80-C83, probably C80


Yes, of course, thank you, Matemax. But there was a time it was quite popular, so it got it's own ECO-Code [C81].

Nevertheless, the rest of my statement seems to be true. Flear wrote about it ("Open Ruy Lopez" (2000), p. 109) that "[t]he 9.Qe2 variation is curious in that White's results are good but the line is out of fashion". And it seems that nothing has changed since then. Or are there any variations that allow Black easy equalizing?

Zwischenzugzwang
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #62 - 07/11/11 at 10:13:22
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 07/11/11 at 09:45:44:
I'm somehow in love with the Keres-Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Qe2 ([B81]). But that seems to be totally out of fashion?  Cry

Zwischenzugzwang

somewhere C80-C83, probably C80
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #61 - 07/11/11 at 09:45:44
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I'm somehow in love with the Keres-Variation 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.dxe5 Be6 9.Qe2 ([B81]). But that seems to be totally out of fashion?  Cry

Zwischenzugzwang
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #60 - 07/11/11 at 07:02:05
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Yandemirov?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #59 - 07/10/11 at 09:50:25
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Ametanoitos wrote on 04/06/11 at 12:14:27:
He recommends 2 lines against Nbd2. He plays Nc5 and g6 in his first recommendation. He ommits the quick Nd4 line (a known idea where White sacs the e5 pawn) but even worse his main line there stops in a winning position for White! In his second suggestion (a modern Nxb3 line) He says nothing about the critical plan with a quick Re1 for White when he stops the main idea ...f6 of Black. Then Black should play "a la Short" with ...a5 but this plan is not even mentioned by Martin! Black is again slightly worse there, but following Martin's recommendations you are not going to get just a "+/=" but probably a "+/-".

Also his recommendation against Keres' quick Qe2 line looks supsect to me. OK, Black may have adequate counterplay somehow but again Martin fails to spot the critical continuations!

This man has done some nice things in the past. So, i don't think that he is bad at what he is doing. I mean that he can do something good, but the last products by him are at least awfull! He claims that he doesn't do them for GMs to see but (as i am an experienced coach myself) the way he presents the material and his choices of the lines are even worse for a normal club player. I regret every cent i have spent on his recent DVDs.

Do you want more details?


Interestingly, I discovered this 9...Nc5, 10...g6 line independently a few months back, and have been playing it with success in correspondence (albeit not against particularly strong opposition). I wasn't aware that there was theory on this line, let alone an established pawn sacrifice! Could someone be so kind as to let me know what the "main line" of this is considered to be, and what lines are currently critical? The idea of pressuring the e5 pawn and re-routing the e4 knight to d7 whilst making the Nbd2 look less useful is an appealing one, so it'd be nice to try and patch this up if it requires it!

Also, since my attempted improvement in the Yandemirov has failed, I'm kind of desperate for a line against the RL, so this could rescue me!
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #58 - 05/25/11 at 03:15:08
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11. a4 b4!? is interesting but white is slightly better either way.  I also analyzed some of the lines after 11... bxa4 that were given by Ametanoitos as worthy of study.

Some of the lines analyzed after 11. Nd4 were simply losing for black (an example is given below.  I don't believe I analyzed further than 23. Qh3 in the version of the file I posted though).  I tried to provide some alternatives but white is again still for preference.

9. Nbd2 Nc5 10. c3 Bf5 is objectively dubious but not so horrible as to be unworthy of playing against an unprepared opponent.

  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #57 - 05/16/11 at 14:54:53
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Thanks a lot for this Daniel.

Can you please summarise - have your analyses lead to any (major?) changes to my original analyses, or of the evaluations of the critical positions?


  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #56 - 04/28/11 at 02:09:19
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Sorry for the double post.  Can't otherwise figure out how to attach the updated file.
  
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updated pgn of 9. Nbd2 Nc5 10. c3 Bf5!?
Reply #55 - 04/27/11 at 23:04:40
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I compiled NeverGiveUp and Ametanoitos's analysis of 9. Nbd2 Nc5 10. c3 Bf5!? into a pgn file and quickly updated it a bit.

Edit: Added some analysis of 11. a4 b4!? among other things

« Last Edit: 04/28/11 at 02:08:30 by Daniel »  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #54 - 04/07/11 at 12:35:11
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Precisely, eveyone has a right to his view, and it's fun to read them all here.  I don't think that a discussion of a book or a DVD that includes sharp criticism of the work is necessarily a bad thing for sales, either.  People who come here will recognize that everyone has his own taste, and make up their own minds.  This forum would be a lot less interesting if every discussion of a book or CD were devoted entirely to its praise.  Let's face it as well, some of these products are stinkers.  We may not all agree on which ones, but it's fun to read opinions even in that vein.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #53 - 04/07/11 at 11:28:50
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Mr Martin, thank you very much for posting here and showing that you respect the opinion of some of your supporters (i believe that i am because i have bought at least 10 products that have your name in them). But without too much details i'd like you to tell us your opinion about the quality of your last products. Do you sincerely believe that the Open Lopez DVD has the same quality as say your Czech Benoni DVD? (which was nice) Or even the Scandinavian or Dutch DVDs?  Do you really believe that your recommendations against the main line Nbd2 can be used by an average club player? Or do you believe that Black is fine in those positions? Would you like from me to provide specific analysis in those positions?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #52 - 04/07/11 at 08:57:56
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  Greetings,

I have been pointed in this direction by friends. All I will say is that everyone has a right to their individual point of view.

  Best Wishes to all CP subscribers and enthusiasts.

  Andrew
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #51 - 04/06/11 at 12:14:27
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He recommends 2 lines against Nbd2. He plays Nc5 and g6 in his first recommendation. He ommits the quick Nd4 line (a known idea where White sacs the e5 pawn) but even worse his main line there stops in a winning position for White! In his second suggestion (a modern Nxb3 line) He says nothing about the critical plan with a quick Re1 for White when he stops the main idea ...f6 of Black. Then Black should play "a la Short" with ...a5 but this plan is not even mentioned by Martin! Black is again slightly worse there, but following Martin's recommendations you are not going to get just a "+/=" but probably a "+/-".

Also his recommendation against Keres' quick Qe2 line looks supsect to me. OK, Black may have adequate counterplay somehow but again Martin fails to spot the critical continuations!

This man has done some nice things in the past. So, i don't think that he is bad at what he is doing. I mean that he can do something good, but the last products by him are at least awfull! He claims that he doesn't do them for GMs to see but (as i am an experienced coach myself) the way he presents the material and his choices of the lines are even worse for a normal club player. I regret every cent i have spent on his recent DVDs.

Do you want more details?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #50 - 04/06/11 at 07:55:39
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fortify wrote on 04/05/11 at 19:43:08:
oh.what lines does he recommend then, against maybe 9 nbd2?i m interested as Iplay the Open Ruy.

You dont need anything else than a subscription to 1.e4e5 chesspublishing - the current host, Victor Mikhalevsky is an outraging expert on the Black side of the Open Ruy Lopez!
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #49 - 04/05/11 at 19:43:08
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oh.what lines does he recommend then, against maybe 9 nbd2?i m interested as Iplay the Open Ruy.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #48 - 04/05/11 at 17:50:08
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fortify wrote on 04/02/11 at 19:06:24:
The last post wasnt too helpful. Why is it bad?

Have you even seen it?


Yes, i have seen it. Very bad repertoire suggestions and bad presentation of these suggestions. Most of Martin's recent DVDs are just bad. The sae for his latest QGD one.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #47 - 04/05/11 at 14:24:13
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I've ordered it anyway ! I'll give me impressions when I receive it.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #46 - 04/02/11 at 19:06:24
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The last post wasnt too helpful. Why is it bad?

Have you even seen it?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #45 - 04/02/11 at 18:29:27
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Just bad!
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #44 - 04/02/11 at 04:47:33
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I'm also interested to hear anyone's review of the Andrew Martin DVD on the Open Ruy. Has anyone got a copy yet ?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #43 - 02/12/11 at 08:50:28
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IM Martin has now a chessbase DVD featuring the Open. I would buy it but i have become slightly sceptical about his DVDs nowdays because their level of quality is not always the same. Maybe some has already this DVD and can provide a feedback?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #42 - 02/01/11 at 09:29:14
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Re Ametanoitos, 11.a4!? and then ba4: 12.Ba4: Na4: 13.Qa4: Qd7 14.Nb3 Be7 15.Re1 - you said:

"15... Rb8 16.Nbd4 Nxd4 17. Nxd4 Qxa4 18. Rxa4 Bd3 19. Rd1 Bc4 is the logical continuation you give. But now what about 20. Nc6? Isn't Black position worse here? I cannot see something convincing for Black."

Spot on - white is much better here. I'm a bit annoying my computer program (Deep Shredder 11) totally missed 20.Nc6, an obvious move that gives white a clear advantage.

Fortunately I did find an improvement for black - he should go 15. ... Bc2! a much better move than Rb8 and after 16.Nfd4 Nd4: 17.Qd7:+ Kd7: 18.Nd4: Be4 19.f3 Bg6 the position is about equal.

I didn't have time to look at the other suggestions which are also interesting. It would appear black can hold his own here because the bishop's pair and white lacking his spanish bishop compensate for the pawn weaknesses.

And more good news - 11.a4!? although a good move is very unlikely to be any white's OTB choice. So white's theoretically best variations in this line involve unlikely moves which one will not come across very often in practice. Indeed, in the 7 games in NICbase both 11.a4!? and 11.Nd4 Nd4: 12.cd4: Ne6 13.Nb1 Rc8 14.Be3 c5 15.Nc3!?, which I think is white's best bet, have not been played at all. 

  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #41 - 01/31/11 at 16:33:25
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Thanks for this Ametanoitos.

Since you're obviously helping me I'll help you as well and post you my full analyses which I wrote down during the weekend.

I'll look into your 11.a4 analyses as soon as I can.

Enjoy!

Note - I used "B" to indicate large advantage for black. As usual, "" means only move.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4: 6.d4 b5 7.Bb3 d5 8.de5: Be6 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 Bf5!?

A)      11.Bc2 Bc2: 12.Qc2: d4(!)

a1) 13.cd4: Nd4: 14.Nd4: Qd4: 15.a4! (15.Nf3 Qd3 16.Qd3: Nd3: 17.b3 [17.Rb1 0-0-0 =+; 17.Rd1 0-0-0 =+] Bc5 18.a4 0-0 B) 15. … b4 (15. … ba4: 16.Ra3! ∆ Nf3 +=) 16.Nc4 0-0-0 (!) 17.Be3 (17.Qe2 Qd3 18.Qg4+?! Ne6 ∆ h5, Rd4 B; 17.Qf5+ Rd7 18.Na5 Qd5 19.Be3 Ne6 20.Qf3 Qf3: 21.gf3: Bc5 =+) Qd3=.

a2) 13.b4 d3! 14.Qd1 Na4 15.Qb3 Be7 16.Ne4 (16. e6 f5! 17.Nb1 0-0 18.Bg5 Re8 19.Bf4 a5! 20.ba5: Rb8 21.a6 Nc5 22.Qb2 Ne6: B; 16.c4?! Nb4: 17.cb5: ab5: 18.Ba3 Nc2 19.Be7: Na1: 20.Qa4:! Ra4: 21.Bd8: Kd8: 22.Ra1: Ke7 23.Nb3 Rha8 B) Qd7 17.Neg5 Bg5: 18.Ng5: Ne5: 19.Re1 0-0-0! 20.Re5: f6 21.Re1 fg5: 22.Bg5: Rde8 23.Be3 (23.c4 Qg4!) Qc6! 24.Rac1 Qc4 B.

a3) 13.Nb3(!) d3 14.Qd1 (14.Qb1?! Qd5 15.Be3 Nd7 16.Bd4 Nd8! ∆ c5-c4 B) Qd5 15.Nbd4 (15.Be3!? Rd8 16.Nbd4 Be7 17.b4 Ne6 18.Qd3: (18.Re1!? c5! 19.dc5 Nc5:unclear) Ncd4: 19.Nd4: Bb4:=; 19.Bd4: Nb4:=) Be7 16.b4 Nd4: 17.Nd4: Nd7 18.Qd3: Ne5: 19.Qg3 Ng6 20.Qc7: 0-0 21.Bb2 Rac8 22.Qg3 Bf6 = 23. Rfd1 Qh5! ∆ Be5


B)      11.Nd4 Nd4: 12.cd4: Ne6

b1) 13.Nf3 Be7 14.Be3 0-0 15.Rc1 Qd7 16.Bc2 (16.Qd2 a5! 17.Qc3 a4 18.Bd1 b4! 19.Qc6 Qc6: 20.Rc6: Bb1! 21.Nd2 Bd3! 22.Re1 Bb5 23.Rc1 c5 24.Nf3 [24.dc5:? d4] c4 -+) Be4! 17.Be4: de4: 18.Nd2 Qd5 (or 18. … Nd4: 19.Nb3 c5 =) 19.Qg4 c5 20.dc5: Qe5: 21.Qe4: Qe4: 22.Ne4: f5 23.Nc3: Bc5: =

b2) 13.Nb1 Rc8 14.Be3 (14.Nc3 c5! 15.dc5: d4 =) c5! 15.dc5: (15.Nc3!? c4 16.Bc2 Bc2: 17.Qc2: g6 18.f4 Bh6 19.Qd2 b4 20.Ne2 Qe7 21.f5 Be3:+ 22.Qe3: Qg5! ; 19.Rae1!?) d4! 16.Be6: Be6: 17.Bd4: Bc5: 18.Bc5: Qd1: 19.Rd1: Rc5: = Kopke-Mikhalevski, Pardubice Open 2008 (0-1, 56 moves); 20.f4?! Bg4 21.Re1 Rc2 22.b3 Ke7 23.Na3 Rd2 24.h3 Be6 25.Rec1 Rhd8 with sufficient compensation for the pawn.


Note – looking at all the above I would say probably the 13.Nb1 Rc8 14.Be3 c5! 15.Nc3!? c4 16.Bc2 Bc2: 17.Qc2: g6 18.f4 variation is white’s best bet and might be giving black difficulties especially when followed up by 18. … Bh6 19.Rae1!?, although black is definitely not without counterplay due to his dangerous queen’s side majority. I cannot imagine, however, that in a practical game any white would not take on c5 and allow black to play c4.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #40 - 01/31/11 at 16:03:16
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I admire your passion and i don't want to discourage you from lookint into this line because i want it to work to but i believe that Black's position is supsect in the lines you give:


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. Nbd2 Nc5 10. c3 Bf5

11. a4 bxa4 12. Bxa4 Nxa4 13. Qxa4 Qd7 14. Nb3

At this point promising continuations for White are also 14.b3,14. Re1 and 14. Rd1 which you don't mention

14... Be7 15. Re1

If i had the position OTB my first choice would probably be 15. Na5. Also 15. Bg5 is very interesting

15... Rb8 16.Nbd4 Nxd4 17. Nxd4 Qxa4 18. Rxa4 Bd3 19. Rd1 Bc4 is the logical continuation you give. But now what about 20. Nc6? Isn't Black position worse here? I cannot see something convincing for Black.

  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #39 - 01/31/11 at 13:49:00
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and I keep wondering ... what does our good moderator, the esteemed Mr. Markovich, think of 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 Bf5!? Will it just be "oops -can I take that back?".
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #38 - 01/31/11 at 09:41:38
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I’ve analysed 11.a4!? as follows
Black should go 11. … ba4:(!) 12.Ba4: Na4:, and now white can choose how to recapture

A) 13.Ra4: Be7 14.Qe2 0-0 15.Ra6: Qd7 15.Nb3 Bg4 16.Ra8: Ra8: 17.Rd1 Rb8 18.Nbd4 Nd4: 19.cd4: Qa4! 20.h3 Bf5 21.Be3 Qa2 =+; 17.Re1 Rb8 18.Nbd4 Nd4: 19.cd4: Qa4 20.Qd3 Rb4! =+ ∆ 21.Bg5 Bf8; 21.Rd1 Bf5! In both cases black has excellent compensation for the pawn.

B) 13.Qa4: Qd7 14.Nb3 Be7 15.Re1 (15.Nbd4 Nd4: 16.Nd4: Qa4: 17.Ra4: Bd7 18.Ra5 c5 =+) Rb8! (∆Bc2) 16.Nfd4 Nd4: 17.Nd4: Qa4: 18.Ra4: Bd3 19.Rd1 Bc4 20.Ra5 Kd7 =+

So black has to defend carefully after 11.a4!? but can obtain some advantage eventually by sacking a pawn for excellent compensation in line A, or getting the bishop’s pair in line B.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #37 - 01/30/11 at 07:53:33
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11.a4 seems critical in the position we are discussing.

Chessbase released a DVD by Andrew Martin on the Open Lopez. Maybe he will answer some questions i have about some lines.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #36 - 01/27/11 at 09:00:53
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Thanks MNb - spot on, my mistake sorry. If I'm correct black went on to win the game and the ending since the e5 pawn falls and material is even but then black is better because he has bishop vs. knight with pawns on both wings, and is exerting pressure on white's queen side.

So there we go - this is a very interesting sideline which has everything to go for it. It's almost totally unknown so will take white by surprise, but leads to complicated positions where black seems to be doing all right.

Must say I'm quite exited about it because I've been looking for a long time for a good reply to 9.Nbd2 and had even abandoned the Open because I couldn't find one. I've got Glenn Flear's book on the open which is very good, but he's definitely much to optimistic about black's prospects after 9.Nbd2. Again like everyone else (including even Kortschnoi) he doesn't mention 10. ... Bf5!? at all.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #35 - 01/26/11 at 22:49:58
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 01/24/11 at 10:16:50:
9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 Bf5 11.Nd4 Nd4: 12.cd4: Ne6! 13.Nb1 (ugly move, but white needs to untangle ...) c5! 14.dc5: d4 15.Be6: Be6: 16.Bd4: Bc5: 17.Bc5: Qd1: 18.Rd1: Bc5:

As 15.Qf3 is much stronger you probably meant 13...Rc8 14.Be3 c5! 15.dxc5 d4 16.Bxe6 Bxe6 17.Bxd4 Bxc5 18.Bxc5 Qxd1 19.Rxd1 Rxc5 with full compensation for the pawn indeed. This is Koepke-Mikhalevski, A, Pardubice 2008.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #34 - 01/26/11 at 11:30:03
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 01/26/11 at 10:32:30:
Thanks Kylemeister. You are absolutely right - it's Alexander Mikhalevsky (2437) who has played this variation several times against quite strong opposition and got quite good results with it. One other has played it - Ilya Khmelniker 2443. They might be from Israel?


They are indeed. And Alexander Mikhalevsky is Victor Mikhalevsky's brother, so the Open Lopez connection is probably not a coincidence.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #33 - 01/26/11 at 10:32:30
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Thanks Kylemeister. You are absolutely right - it's Alexander Mikhalevsky (2437) who has played this variation several times against quite strong opposition and got quite good results with it. One other has played it - Ilya Khmelniker 2443. They might be from Israel? Khmelniker played it against the strong grandmaster Onischuk (2644) who didn't achieve more than a draw.   

What I find quite surprising is that even a giant like Kortschnoi, who looked at almost anything black and white can do in the Open Ruy Lopez (I have his ECO monographs - great stuff), didn't consider 10. ... Bf5 even though he looked at (and played!) almost every other reasonable move in the position after 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3, including 10. ... d4, 10. ... Bg4, 10. ... Be7 and even 10. ... g6.

My preliminary conclusion is that 10. ...Bf5!? is a very reasonable alternative to the other lines and that it's very hard white to achieve anything substantial against it. Anyone willing to take me on??  Cheesy
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #32 - 01/24/11 at 16:00:50
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That's not the same Mikhalevski.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #31 - 01/24/11 at 11:30:12
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Thanks for this Ametanoitos.

A very relevant question - but all I've been able to find is the 7 games in NICbase. In NICbase there is no reference to a yearbook so I suppose a survey has not (yet?) been written about it (I don't have a subscription). It' s not mentioned as far as I can tell in Flear, Kortschnoi, ECO. I suppose Mikhalevski keeps it to himself for the time being to be able to score points with it? Must say however my sources of the latests opening novelties are a bit limited. It goes without saying that if there is something out there I'm very interested indeed. And don't underestimate the analyses posted on this site - from my experience they're usually very good and can be ground-breaking!
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #30 - 01/24/11 at 11:02:59
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@NeverGiveUp:

Thanks for sharing this. I'll look at it ,because i am interested in general for the Open Lopez, and i'll also share my thoughts after i do some research. For  starters: does this variation have been covered in works such as Khalifman, ECO, NCO, Yearbooks, Chesspublishing etc?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #29 - 01/24/11 at 10:21:57
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Moderator...?
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #28 - 01/24/11 at 10:16:50
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I still would like to draw your guy's attention to the sideline 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 Bf5 (!) of our very own Mikhalevski. I analysed it with the computer over the weekend. In NICbase 7 games have been played with it and black is doing fine. More importantly there is a clear rationale for the line - after Nbd2 and c3 white needs to untangle by playing Bc2, Nb3 and then might go Nfd4 and f4 with a king's side attack to follow. The nasty 10. ... Bf5! is a prophylaxis and doesn't allow white to untangle in this way without a concession. If he goes 11. Bc2 then black goes 11. ... Bc2: 12. Qc2: d4 and black is fine - he has exchanged his "bad" bishop and after 13.cd4: (what else?) he can go 13. ... Nd4: 14.Nd4: Qd4: 15.Nf3 Qd3 where the knight on c5 is well placed, so the endgame if anything might be slightly better for black. So white should try something else - but 11.Nd4 Nd4: 12.cd4: Ne6! is OK for black after 13.Nb1 (ugly move, but white needs to untangle ...) c5! 14.dc5: d4 15.Be6: Be6: 16.Bd4: Bc5: 17.Bc5: Qd1: 18.Rd1: Bc5: with equality, or 13.Nf3 Be7 14.Be3 0-0 15.Rc1 Qd7 16.Qd2 a5! followed by a4. I can't see any line here giving white an advantage and the variation leads to lots of play so seems to be exactly what black wants.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #27 - 01/24/11 at 08:05:52
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #26 - 01/24/11 at 06:22:12
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TonyRo wrote on 01/20/11 at 16:43:05:
Markovich wrote on 01/20/11 at 15:17:19:
TonyRo wrote on 01/20/11 at 14:30:23:
Has 9. Nbd2 really thrown the Open Lopez into the fiery pits of chess yesteryear? Didn't our very own Mikhalevski write ~4-5 Yearbook articles on the Open Ruy Lopez recently. I think mostly on 9. Nbd2.


Yes, and if you believe him (I do), Black is perfectly O.K. after 9.Nbd2.  Theory has changed in Black's favor since some of the earlier posts on this thread, which date back to 2004.  The Open is once again being played at high levels.


This was my opinion as well when looking at it recently as well. On to something else to challenge the Open Ruy Lopez.


Looking at yearbook 92 (that i have) i am not very convinced that Black is fine in the lines Mikhalevsky shows. He always has to fight for equality, he maybe achieves this at the (very) end but White's superior structure is always something that discourages me to play the Black's position.

Maybe he offers something better in yearbooks 93,94,95 or 97? Or does he cover the same (Lasker's) line? (with Nbd2 Nc5 + d4)
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #25 - 01/21/11 at 11:47:43
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Related question - I have seen several games of Mikhalevski with 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 Bf5!? - he played it against quite strong opposition and got good results and postions. The main idea is 11.Nd4 Nd4: 12.cd4: Ne6 13.Nb1 (13.Nf3 Bg4) Rc8 14.Be3 c5! 15.dc5: d4 16.Be6: Be6: 17.Bd4: Bc5: 18.Bc5: Qd1: 19.Rd1: Rc5: and black regains the e5 pawn with the better position. 11.Bc2 Bc2: 12.Qc2: is easy for black after 12. ... d4 or 12. ... Be7. To me this looks a bit like an improved version of 10. ... d4 11.Be6: Ne6:. What do you guys think of this interesting variation?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #24 - 01/21/11 at 09:42:32
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Right guys - this is very good news indeed - can you satisfy my curiostity by giving your expert advice - what should black be playing against Nbd2?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #23 - 01/20/11 at 16:43:05
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Markovich wrote on 01/20/11 at 15:17:19:
TonyRo wrote on 01/20/11 at 14:30:23:
Has 9. Nbd2 really thrown the Open Lopez into the fiery pits of chess yesteryear? Didn't our very own Mikhalevski write ~4-5 Yearbook articles on the Open Ruy Lopez recently. I think mostly on 9. Nbd2.


Yes, and if you believe him (I do), Black is perfectly O.K. after 9.Nbd2.  Theory has changed in Black's favor since some of the earlier posts on this thread, which date back to 2004.  The Open is once again being played at high levels.


This was my opinion as well when looking at it recently as well. On to something else to challenge the Open Ruy Lopez.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #22 - 01/20/11 at 15:17:19
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TonyRo wrote on 01/20/11 at 14:30:23:
Has 9. Nbd2 really thrown the Open Lopez into the fiery pits of chess yesteryear? Didn't our very own Mikhalevski write ~4-5 Yearbook articles on the Open Ruy Lopez recently. I think mostly on 9. Nbd2.


Yes, and if you believe him (I do), Black is perfectly O.K. after 9.Nbd2.  Theory has changed in Black's favor since some of the earlier posts on this thread, which date back to 2004.  The Open is once again being played at high levels.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #21 - 01/20/11 at 14:30:23
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Has 9. Nbd2 really thrown the Open Lopez into the fiery pits of chess yesteryear? Didn't our very own Mikhalevski write ~4-5 Yearbook articles on the Open Ruy Lopez recently. I think mostly on 9. Nbd2.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #20 - 01/20/11 at 10:26:21
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I wonder - Bond has said that 9.Nbd2 Bc5 gives black a worse endgame - but some recent games on NICbase suggest black might be doing OK here? After 10.Ne4: de4: 11.Qd8: Rd8: 12.Ng5 black can go 12. ... 0-0!? and after 13.Be6: fe6: 14.Ne6: Bf2:+! 15.Kh1 (15.Rf2:? Rd1+) e3! and black is allright due to the threat e2.

What do you guys think - might Bc5 be black's salvation in the nasty Nbd2 line?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #19 - 11/12/10 at 11:12:08
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Thanks for this guys.

It looks like black is in business after 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 d4 11.Ng5 - if he follows the Ponomariov line - but what is your verdict on the equally popular 11.Be6: Ne6: 12.cd4: Nd4: where looking at the database results black is also struggling? 

I want to take up the main line open ruy lopez but like Markovich I am struggling finding an adequate reply to 9.Nbd2.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #18 - 10/25/10 at 20:10:27
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MARKOVICH:

Yes, really.  True, 9.c3 Be7 is supposed to lead to a "slight advantage" in the sense that White has a slight advantage in the opening position, maybe a little worse depending on your taste; but 9.Nbd2 Be7 (or Bc5) 10.Nxe4 is supposed to lead to something somewhat more than that.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that has been my understanding.  9.Nbd2 is a challenge to the entire Open Defense and not just a move-order trick to avoid 9...Bc5.  That's why Kasparov said after defeating Anand with 9.Nbd2 that he had "closed the Open Defense."  And as you'll recall, for about 10 years or so it remained closed, until Ponomariov's discoveries in the pawns-versus-piece ending that arises from taking off the g5 knight.

TO NeverGiveUp; Ponomariov's game ( I assume ... )

9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 d4 11.Ng5 Qxg5 12.Qf3 0-0-0 13.Bxe6+ fxe6 14.Qxc6 Qxe5 15.b4 Qd5! ( 15..Nb7 16.Qxa6 Qd5 17.Nf3 ) 16.Qxd5 exd5 17.bxc5 dxc3 18.Nb3 d4 19.Ba3 ( 19.Rd1 d3 20.Be3 c2 ) 19..g6 ( 19..c2!? and d3 ) 20.Bb4 Bg7 ( or 20..c2 again ) 21.a4 d3 22.axb5 d2 23.Nxd2 Bxa1 24.Rxa1 Rhe8 draw in move 41 ( Morozevich-Ponomariov, Biel, 2004 ).

Shirov-Anand, Mainz, 2004 was 23.c6 Kb8 24.Rad1 Rd5 ( 24..axb5 ) 25.bxa6 Rhd8 26.Na1 Ka7 27.Nc2 Rb8 even Black has a good counterplay, although game finished in draw at move 42.

At all, perhaps Open Ruy Lopez is still playable after 9.Nbd2 ....!?
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #17 - 10/18/10 at 10:17:16
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Actually that the open RL is not popular nowadays is to black's advantage if he knows the theory - since white may well have forgotten the details.

I find a downside to the open RL that  it's such an immense lot of opening theory to learn - it's a world of its own. The variations are very interesting however and you can select your own sideline(s). Flear's book is very good.

You guys are referring to a Ponomariov line at move 23 but what is this line please?

I myself wouldn't be too keen with black on playing 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 d4 (even if it would equalise) because that's the line everyone is playing so white will know it and may come up with a theoretical improvement.

What about 9.Nbd2 Nc5 10.c3 Be7 11.Bc2 d4!? that's an unusual line which seems very doable for black.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #16 - 05/06/10 at 20:38:49
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Well I stand corrected.  I looked at my data base and it does appear that 10.Nxe4 is a minor move and not a very successful one.  You learn something every day.

Relevant to 9.Nbd2 Be7 10.c3 or 9.c3 Be7 10.Nbd2, Anand - Leko 2006 is a pretty interesting game: 10...O-O 11.Qe2 Nc5 12.Nd4 Nxb3 13.N2xb3!? (13.Nxc6) 13...Qd7 14.Nxc6 Qxc6 15.Be3 Qc4!? 16.Qd2!? b4 17.Rac1 and now instead of Leko's 17...Qg4!?, I think Black should consider 17...Rfc8 as played in Bjuhr - Wikstrom, Sweden 1969, no less.  Black's game looks playable to me.  Here I use "!?" in the sense of "major crossroads."

But on second thought, 18.f4 as played by Bjuhr looks challenging.  Well anyway, it's interesting.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #15 - 05/06/10 at 16:07:00
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Shirov-Ivanchuk 2009 transposed to a line which has traditionally been thought to be fine for Black -- i.e. 9. c3 Be7 10. Nbd2 0-0 11. Re1 Nc5 etc., where 11. Qe2 has generally been considered better.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #14 - 05/06/10 at 15:25:41
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In my 2500+ database first choice after 9...Be7 is 10.c3 (61 game) but there are 4 games with 10.Nxe4 (Ivanchuk made a draw vs. Shirov 2005.) and Shirov tried 10.Re1 and won vs. Ivanchuk 2009.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #13 - 05/05/10 at 14:56:30
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Markovich wrote on 05/05/10 at 12:58:01:
Yes, really.  True, 9.c3 Be7 is supposed to lead to a "slight advantage" in the sense that White has a slight advantage in the opening position, maybe a little worse depending on your taste; but 9.Nbd2 Be7 (or Bc5) 10.Nxe4 is supposed to lead to something somewhat more than that.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that has been my understanding.  9.Nbd2 is a challenge to the entire Open Defense and not just a move-order trick to avoid 9...Bc5.  That's why Kasparov said after defeating Anand with 9.Nbd2 that he had "closed the Open Defense."  And as you'll recall, for about 10 years or so it remained closed, until Ponomariov's discoveries in the pawns-versus-piece ending that arises from taking off the g5 knight.


Well, one observation is that several incarnations of ECO/NCO/MCO published between 1997 and 2008 all give 9...Be7 10. Nxe4 as leading to equality.  I would think that "closing the Open Defense" means establishing (at least) a pretty clear += against all of Black's possibilities, and that Kasparov might well have considered that already done in the case of 9. Nbd2 Be7 10. c3.   
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #12 - 05/05/10 at 12:58:01
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kylemeister wrote on 05/05/10 at 02:42:01:
Markovich wrote on 05/04/10 at 21:42:21:
Most people think that 9...Be7 10.Nxe4 is somewhat worse for Black than 9...Nc5.  Black is relatively solid, however.  Ditto 9...Bc5.  I suspect that few Whites would play 10.c3, which would say, "Forgive and forget."


Really?  It's been my impression that 9...Be7 10. c3 is generally thought to lead to a slight advantage, but 10. Nxe4 is not.  After 9...Be7 White has of course avoided the Dilworth, which I would have thought was a/the main reason for the popularity of 9. Nbd2 (whereupon 9...Bc5 10. Nxe4 is considered somewhat better for White, as far as I know).


Yes, really.  True, 9.c3 Be7 is supposed to lead to a "slight advantage" in the sense that White has a slight advantage in the opening position, maybe a little worse depending on your taste; but 9.Nbd2 Be7 (or Bc5) 10.Nxe4 is supposed to lead to something somewhat more than that.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that has been my understanding.  9.Nbd2 is a challenge to the entire Open Defense and not just a move-order trick to avoid 9...Bc5.  That's why Kasparov said after defeating Anand with 9.Nbd2 that he had "closed the Open Defense."  And as you'll recall, for about 10 years or so it remained closed, until Ponomariov's discoveries in the pawns-versus-piece ending that arises from taking off the g5 knight.
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #11 - 05/05/10 at 02:42:01
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Markovich wrote on 05/04/10 at 21:42:21:
Most people think that 9...Be7 10.Nxe4 is somewhat worse for Black than 9...Nc5.  Black is relatively solid, however.  Ditto 9...Bc5.  I suspect that few Whites would play 10.c3, which would say, "Forgive and forget."


Really?  It's been my impression that 9...Be7 10. c3 is generally thought to lead to a slight advantage, but 10. Nxe4 is not.  After 9...Be7 White has of course avoided the Dilworth, which I would have thought was a/the main reason for the popularity of 9. Nbd2 (whereupon 9...Bc5 10. Nxe4 is considered somewhat better for White, as far as I know).
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #10 - 05/04/10 at 21:42:21
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Most people think that 9...Be7 10.Nxe4 is somewhat worse for Black than 9...Nc5.  Black is relatively solid, however.  Ditto 9...Bc5.  I suspect that few Whites would play 10.c3, which would say, "Forgive and forget."
  

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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #9 - 05/04/10 at 17:35:28
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10...0-0 produces an old standard mainline position.
  
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Re: Open Ruy Lopez
Reply #8 - 05/04/10 at 17:18:49
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What about this line:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. Nbd2 Be7

How good is 9...Be7 instead of 9...Nc5?

OK, it can transpose if after 10.c3 black plays Nc5 but what if 10...0-0?
  
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