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Normal Topic Basic question 'bout Pirc/Modern (Read 3510 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Basic question 'bout Pirc/Modern
Reply #6 - 09/26/06 at 01:34:12
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PS.  It might be worth noting that after 4 Nf3 a surprising number of strong players, starting with Robatsch and including Rausis, have tried 4 ...Qb6!?, with reasonable results ...
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Basic question 'bout Pirc/Modern
Reply #5 - 09/26/06 at 01:10:53
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Many thanks for the kind words Marc! -- and sorry for my delay in replying.

I really don't know the answer to the question! After 7 Be2 the weird 7 ...Qc6!? is obviously very tricky but I haven't properly looked at this position. I notice Rausis himself chose 7 ...Nf6 8 Nc3 0-0 9 0-0 Nbd7 in Rivera Kusaw--Rausis and won when White overstepped the mark, but as Hedgehogs go am I right in thinking this was a rather brave one? On 7 Bd3 maybe Black can profit by ...Bg4 at some stage if f2--f3 in reply is going to be weakening/double-edged?
  
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Marc Narciso
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Re: Basic question 'bout Pirc/Modern
Reply #4 - 09/13/06 at 16:15:34
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Very inspiring material, thx to Michael Ayton for it.

Just a very simple question. After 1e4 g6 2d4 Bg7 3 c4 c5 4 Ne2 (or 4 Nf3) 4...cxd4 5Nxd4 Qb6!? (5...Nc6 is a Maroczy sicilian) 6Nb3 d6 I think that  the point of black system is clearly 7Nc3 Bxc3! 8 bxc3 Nf6 then Nbd7 with a nice position as in Kozakov-Rausis but what if white develops the kingside (7Be2 or even 7Bd3) and waits to Nf6 before playing Nc3? how to justify the Qb6 then?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Basic question 'bout Pirc/Modern
Reply #3 - 06/02/04 at 19:57:38
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Dear Isf and Alumbrado,

Just to let you know that I've just thoroughly modified the above post that I made three weeks ago, because as it stood it was seriously misleading!
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Basic question 'bout Pirc/Modern
Reply #2 - 05/12/04 at 19:32:57
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'Yes, of course' -- this would be my answer too. But can I suggest some non-KID options, in the Modern move order after 3 c4, in addition to the ones Alumbrado mentions?

I'm thinking of taking up the Modern next season, and against 3 c4 I'm intending to play one of these two systems (the second of which will often transpose to the first):


SYSTEM ONE: 3 ...d6 4 Nc3 c5!?:

I haven't closely looked at 5 Be3 Nf6!? or ... Qa5!?, but I assume this isn't critical; meanwhile 5 Nge2 cd (there are other moves!) transposes to 5 Nf3 cd. I also assume that 5 dc dc (5 ...Bc3 may be interesting?) 6 Qd8 Kd8 is OK for Black. That leaves 5 Nf3 and 5 d5 as the most critical tries. Against 5 Nf3, Black has either (1) 5 ...cd 6 Nd4 Nc6 or ...Nf6, both of which should end up as a Maroczy Bind Accelerated Dragon, or (2) 5 ...Nc6 6 d5 Nd4 7 Nd4 cd, transposing to the line 3 c4 d6 4 Nc3 Nc6 5 d5 Nd4 6 Nge2?! (6 Be3!) c5 7 Nd4 cd, which according to Nigel Davies is unclear after 8 Nb5 Qb6 9 c5 dc! 10 Bf4 Kf8. If neither of these two options appeals, Black can also try Topalev's 5 ...Qa5!?. Against 5 d5, since 5 ...Nf6 is not necessarily either a KID or even good, I'm intending 5 ...e6. Now White has three main tries (in addition to 6 de!?, after which all three responses have been seen!). After (1) 6 Nf3, NCO (p. 69, n. 33) gives 6 ...Ne7 7 Be2 0-0 8 0-0 a6 (8 ...e5!? may be interesting too) 9 a4 ed 10 cd without an assessment (and as transposing to a position it seems not to mention!), while also possible here is 7 Bd3 0-0 8 0-0 a6 or ...e5. Alternatively there's (2) 6 Bd3 ed! (6 ...Ne7?! 7 h4! ed 8 cd! is a bit better for White while 6 ...Nf6?! 7 Nf3 leads to KID lines [NCO p. 523] where White can obtain a bind if Black takes on d5 and White replies with exd5!, or a small edge if he doesn't) 7 ed!? (7 cd Nf6! is a Benoni) Ne7!? 8 Nf3 (8 Nge2!?) 0-0 9 0-0 Nd7!? (9 ...Bg4!? and 9 ...h6!? have also been seen) intending ...Ne5 with a reasonable position. Finally, on (3) 6 f4, 6 ...Nf6 7 Nf3 0-0 (or 7...ed first) is a Four Pawns Attack, but Black can also try 6 ...Ne7!?, or 6 ...ed!? 7 cd and now 7 ...Ne7 (7 ...Nf6?! 8 Bb5! being a Taimanov Benoni).


SYSTEM TWO: 3 ...c5!?:

I assume (rightly or wrongly!) that 4 Be3, 4 Ne2 and 4 dc aren't critical. This leaves 4 Nf3 and 4 d5. Against the first, Black has 4 ...d6, when 5 Nc3 transposes to 5 Nf3 in System One, while if this doesn't appeal he can try Rausis's 4 ...cd 5 Nd4 Qb6!? 6 Nb3 d6!, which according to NCO (p. 63, n. 50) is OK. After 4 d5, 4 ...d6!? (4 ...e6 seems sound too but I can't see any advantages to this move order) will probably transpose into System One lines whether White plays 5 Nc3, 5 Nf3, 5 Bd3 or 5 f4 if Black responds to each of them with 5 ...e6, but there are also a few independent possibilities that might be interesting: (1) 5 Bd3 e5!?; (2) 5 f4 e5!?; and (3) 5 f4 Nf6 6 Nc3 0-0 7 Nf3 e5!? (7 ...e6 8 Be2 ed 9 cd is a Benoni).


I've always considered that the existence of a number of different ways of playing it is a sign of the health of a system (if one line should be refuted the others are still alive!), and this seems to be the case here. But I'm not a strong player and all of this should be carefully checked. Anyway, the above is my tentative attempt at questioning Botvinnik's reported statement that non-KID 3 c4 lines are dubious for Black. Your opinions are eagerly sought!





« Last Edit: 06/02/04 at 19:53:36 by Michael Ayton »  
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alumbrado
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Re: Basic question 'bout Pirc/Modern
Reply #1 - 05/12/04 at 11:16:59
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Yes, of course.  White can't force a King's Indian after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.c4 d6 4.Nc3, as Black has options such as 4...Nd7, 4...Nc6 and 4...e5.  It is my opinion that none of these are particularly good, and that 4...Nf6, transposing directly to the KID is the best move - but it is only my opinion.

If you want to avoid those lines altogether, you can simply use the Pirc move order 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6(!) when White will usually reply 3.Nc3, ruling out transpositions to the KID.  He can try instead 3.f3 or 3.Bd3 with the aim of later maybe playing c2-c4, but Black has independent answers to both these moves (3...e5 is good in both cases, and after 3.f3, 3...d5!? is also an option).
  

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Basic question 'bout Pirc/Modern
05/12/04 at 10:49:59
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Is possible to play the Pirc and/or modern defense without playing KID agains 1.d4 (I´m concerned about transpositions)?
  
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