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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad? (Read 17649 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #25 - 11/22/08 at 12:43:07
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flaviddude wrote on 11/22/08 at 00:32:58:

I personally think that the BDG should be used as a shock weapon by 1.e4 players against the Centre-Counter. 
    

Yes- that's how I use it.

In the Hubsch I suggest 3.e4 Nxe4 4.Nxe4 dxe4 5.Bf4 as a good alternative to 5.Bc4.  If nothing else it's less explored, whereas I think 5.Bc4 has been effectively neutralised, Black has many ways to return the pawn and reach at least an equal game.
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #24 - 11/22/08 at 00:35:20
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Teyko wrote on 05/13/04 at 16:35:06:
Not a problem GM Prie.  The DVC is the Diemer memorial club. They play thematic correspondence games and tournaments in Germany. One of the stronger players Leisbein who you see cited in all BDG books is a member of this organization and they are the illuminati of the gambit. 

I would be happy to comment on any line and will post all my analysis on the forum and send you a word attachment GM Prie. 

The FM. Albert Chow is now starting to play the BDG because of the losses he suffered at the club level. However he is trying to adopt the 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. f3 move order. I was hoping you could present some analysis on this line. 

Thanks. 

I am finding a problem with the Hubsch countergambit, however, I do believe there is an answer that will give white some options. I am content with the Sneiders attack and will give you the fritz lines to show how white maintains an attack with the knight sac.


last time I checked Albert Chow hadn't left Chicago in years  Shocked not sure how he made his way to Germany. He plays a viscious Albin Counter Gambit but his biggest weakness is time. He is a natural talent for openings.
  
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flaviddude
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #23 - 11/22/08 at 00:32:58
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ArKheiN wrote on 11/17/08 at 07:41:47:
Gambit said Quote:
As someone who has always met 1 d4 Nf6 with 2 f3, I can attest that this is a good move in that it avoids BOTH the Hubsch and the Lemberger Counter-Gambit. The only drawback is that some people will chicken out with either 2...d6, 2...g6, or 2...c5.


Both the Hubsch and the Lemberger? For the Hubsch that's right, but the Lemberger can't be played with the knight on f6...1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e5, the Lemberger that you can't avoid here. But the "drawback" is when Black deviates, and you would prefer to have your knight on Nc3 and not your pawn on f3. But of course the Benoni with f3 exists, it usually comes from a King's Indian Saemisch first. But still, I prefer Benoni with my knight on c3. One of many interesting idea for Black to try to punish 2.f3 is 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 e6!? 3.e4 c5!? (d5 is a sort of French but it's totally ok for White), or 2.f3 d5 3.e4 e5!? (an "unkown" idea) 4.dxe5 Nxe4! (the point, Black is close to forcing a draw here, but I have found a line where White could still play for a win but I don't know if White has anything). Or there is something like 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 Nc6!? (with the idea to get a sort of good Tango).


The Lemberger occurs after

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe 3.Nc3 e5 I have worked hard on this line. White is O.K. in this line and can win brilliantly if black follows the line given in most books. 

As for the Hubsch I do no trust it. I have a lot of material on this gambit and much of the analysis is unconvincing.

1.d4 Nf6 2. f3 allows black a range of replies many of which look nothing like a Blackmar-Diemer gambit.

I personally think that the BDG should be used as a shock weapon by 1.e4 players against the Centre-Counter. 
      
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #22 - 11/19/08 at 11:30:46
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Gambit wrote on 11/19/08 at 05:27:17:
That's interesting, MNb. Where did you get that info? And who was he? From what background?
Now if you have more info, can you share in with us?


My only source is my memory and that's highly unreliable. In other words, I think I have read it somewhere, but have completely forgotten where. If I stumble into a source I will let you know. Who he was, from what background, I have no clue.

Fürchtegott Hübsch, that would be nice (cheerful fear of god).
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #21 - 11/19/08 at 07:41:20
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Gambit wrote on 11/19/08 at 05:27:17:

Because according to my research on the Internet, his first name initial was "F". I think it might stand for either Friedrich, Frank or Fritz, three popular Austrian names.

Normally Fritz would just be a short form of Friedrich. Other obvious candidates for "F" - particularly in Austria - would have been Ferdinand or Franz (possibly much more obvious than Frank, in fact), but of course there's any number of less common possibilities such as Frederick, Felix, Fabian, Falk, Florentin, Fridolin or Fürchtegott.
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #20 - 11/19/08 at 05:27:17
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That's interesting, MNb. Where did you get that info? And who was he? From what background?

Because according to my research on the Internet, his first name initial was "F". I think it might stand for either Friedrich, Frank or Fritz, three popular Austrian names.

Now if you have more info, can you share in with us?
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #19 - 11/18/08 at 09:55:00
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Iirc Ernst Hübsch.
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #18 - 11/18/08 at 06:41:33
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I have played this line quite a bit, ArKhein, and find it good for White. But how are you to protect the e5-pawn without the f4pawn? Black puts quite a bit of pressure there.

By the way, does anyone know Hubsch's first name? The guy who defeated Tartakower at Vienna in 1922?
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #17 - 11/17/08 at 21:52:47
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3..Nf6 4.e5 Nd7 with f4 and c3 to follow, that's really not bad for White, despite the "lost" tempo of f3-f4, because White has not blocked his c pawn, not blocked his c1 bishop. That's not worse than 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 d5 4.e4!? e6 5.e5 Nd7 where White will play c3, Be3-f4, that has been played at GM level, even by Kasparov, and can transpose into the 2.f3 french type direcly. Personnally, I score about 80% on corr as White here against "French vs f3".
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #16 - 11/17/08 at 19:36:37
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Obviously it works okay for the BDG player when Black plays 2...d5 3.e4 dxe4 4.f3 and we have a BDG, but I feel on principle that 2.f3 can't be right.  

I suggest that 2...d5 is a reasonable move, but that Black can instead "duck out" with 3...e6 giving a French Defence, a position alternatively reached by 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 Nf6 (and if 4.Nc3, simply 4...Bb4 and all BDG ideas are out, leaving Black with an improved Winawer/McCutcheon).   Not really what the aspiring BDG-er is after!
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #15 - 11/17/08 at 16:39:35
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TopNotch wrote on 05/13/04 at 20:43:58:


Queen's Gambit anyone?

Top  Grin


That's always my main point about this stuff.  What a shame to play 2.Nc3 (or 2.e4, depending) when 2.c4! is on the board.
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #14 - 11/17/08 at 07:41:47
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Gambit said Quote:
As someone who has always met 1 d4 Nf6 with 2 f3, I can attest that this is a good move in that it avoids BOTH the Hubsch and the Lemberger Counter-Gambit. The only drawback is that some people will chicken out with either 2...d6, 2...g6, or 2...c5.


Both the Hubsch and the Lemberger? For the Hubsch that's right, but the Lemberger can't be played with the knight on f6...1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e5, the Lemberger that you can't avoid here. But the "drawback" is when Black deviates, and you would prefer to have your knight on Nc3 and not your pawn on f3. But of course the Benoni with f3 exists, it usually comes from a King's Indian Saemisch first. But still, I prefer Benoni with my knight on c3. One of many interesting idea for Black to try to punish 2.f3 is 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 e6!? 3.e4 c5!? (d5 is a sort of French but it's totally ok for White), or 2.f3 d5 3.e4 e5!? (an "unkown" idea) 4.dxe5 Nxe4! (the point, Black is close to forcing a draw here, but I have found a line where White could still play for a win but I don't know if White has anything). Or there is something like 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 Nc6!? (with the idea to get a sort of good Tango).
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #13 - 11/16/08 at 22:40:25
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As someone who has always met 1 d4 Nf6 with 2 f3, I can attest that this is a good move in that it avoids BOTH the Hubsch and the Lemberger Counter-Gambit. The only drawback is that some people will chicken out with either 2...d6, 2...g6, or 2...c5.

Now, after 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 c5 White can play 3 d5 or 3 e3!? when play might well follow a Benoni set-up. I have played many, many games 
with 3 d5 and won more times than I lost. The move 3 e3 is my latest idea, which I use on Internet Chess Club. It appears passive but playable.

Note that your title, "Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2 f3 bad?" is misleading. The reason for this is because the Hubsch Gambit arises after 1 d5 d5 2 Nc3 Nf6 3 e4 Nxe4 4 Nxe4 dxe4. Now here 5 f3? loses to 5...e5!

The correct title, I think, should be  "Why is avoiding the Hubsch with 2 f3 bad?"

Keep in touch.
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #12 - 09/22/08 at 22:37:24
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You mean 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 ? I would say either 2...c5 or 2...d5 3.e4 dxe4 or 2...e6 3.e4 d5.
  
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Re: Why is meeting the Hubsch with 2. f3 bad?
Reply #11 - 09/22/08 at 12:41:39
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What should Nimzo Players do against this move order?
  
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