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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How should i attack the KID? (Read 16999 times)
alumbrado
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #33 - 11/17/04 at 06:38:57
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You could try the Makogonov (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6) 5.h3!? - a personal favourite.
  
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #32 - 11/16/04 at 06:28:16
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My favourite weapon is the samisch.

But I'm going up against an old club-mate soon in a round robin tournament. We must have had a hundred battles in the Samisch by now.

What's a good alternative to 5. f3?

I want to play c4 (ie. no barry), and I don't want to play Nf3 (hate the stupid knight blocking my f-pawn Wink).  

What is good? Something aggressive will be nice. I want to fight back and put a zealous KID maniac in his place!

I am not so comfortable with the positions coming from the 4 pawns in the Dunnington 1. d4 book  Undecided and Watson's analysis in his benoni book are, as always, very convincing. I am currently checking out 5. Nge2 more closely. What other choices are there?
« Last Edit: 11/16/04 at 07:53:08 by lnn2 »  
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #31 - 11/10/04 at 21:16:30
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For my 2 cents... I've always scored best with the Averbakh Variation 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5
  
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #30 - 09/28/04 at 14:35:53
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Quote:
There is a good book by Vaganian for anyone interested in adopting this system.


Vaisser, I should've said.
  
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #29 - 09/23/04 at 07:54:08
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Are the Barry and the Bayonet really the best ways to 'attack' the KID?; the former avoids it to some extent (but is a good practical try), whilst the latter is a theoretical and complex main line. If the Samisch is too theoretical for your tastes, then why not try 5 Nge2!? on which there is an excellent monograph by Forintos and Haag: the plan is clear Ng3, Be2, sometimes Bg5, and then h4!.
  
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #28 - 09/18/04 at 08:02:39
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The 7. Nf3 b5!? line is supposed to be very good for white after 8.cxb5 a6 9.a4 axb5 10.Bxb5, but there are some sidelines, in which it is not entirely clear whether white is really better. But this line definitely is much easier to play for white than a proper Benkö gambit. I feel that after 7.Nf3 the move 7...b5 is possibly not entirely justified, while after 7.Be2!? (I can't remember why, but I used to play this move a couple of years ago) it is much better, because Bf1-e2 will often prove to be a useless move.
  
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #27 - 09/17/04 at 19:03:53
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Yes, I once lost an important game against that Volga-like variation.  But more recently, in the final section of the U.S. 13th CC Championship, I won handily against the same line, with the help of the ideas in Vaganian's excellent 4 Pawns book.  If I recall correctly, he thinks that White is better in that variation. 

But I think it's a line where things can go bad for White if he doesn't know what he's doing -- something true of the whole system, I suppose  Smiley
  
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #26 - 09/17/04 at 15:57:08
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When I used to play the Benoni, I met the 4-pawns attack with the Volgagambit: 1. d4 Nf6  2.c4 c5  3.d5 d6 4.Nc3 g6  5.e4 Bg7  6.f4 0-0  7. Nf3 b5!? with interesting play, when Black has chances to take over the initiative. Not that I claim this being a refutation or something.
  
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Re: 4 pawns attack
Reply #25 - 09/17/04 at 12:42:59
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Quote:
Well, in the Bg4 system white retains a lot of pressure for a long time, but...


That is all I meant, really, not that Black is lost.   I do think that White enjoys a little more than his standard edge in this line, though others might disagree.

Nice talking to you.  Grin
  
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4 pawns attack
Reply #24 - 09/17/04 at 11:23:49
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Markovich: Well, in the Bg4 system white retains a lot of pressure for a long time, but I'm not entirely sure black is really seriously in trouble as long as he avoids (further?!) inaccuracies like playing a7-a6 (which is often just bad).

In the Na6 variation white seems to have a number of ways of keeping a slightly better position - as opposed to what all writers seem to claim accepting the pawn after 7.Be2 e5 8.fxe5 dxe5 9.Nxe5 looks just fine to me. Okay, you have to be somewhat careful and black will get his pawn back, but white will have a useful queenside majority.

The 6...c5 7.d5 e6 8.Be2 exd5 9.cxd5 Nbd7 system looks fairly okay for black though.
  
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #23 - 09/17/04 at 10:26:17
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I do not like any of White's ideas in the original post  Tongue, and I think that 2. c4 is unmistakably White's best move.

Against the King's Indian I would strongly recommend the Four Pawns Attack.  It is most amusing to see this system deprecated in every KID repertoire book, but always with a new Black idea.  They never mentioned what happened to the OLD Black idea  Roll Eyes!

For example, at one time, 1. d4 Nf6  2.c4 g6  3. Nc3 Bg7  4. e4 d6  5. f4 0-0  6. Nf3 c5  7. d5 e6  8. Be2 exd5  9. cxe5 and now 9...Bg4 "!" was supposed to be Black's path to dynamic equality, but it is now recognized that Black is having trouble there.  The latest antidote is supposed to be 6...Na6, but I respectfully doubt its merits.

There is a good book by Vaganian for anyone interested in adopting this system.
  
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #22 - 08/07/04 at 09:55:03
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<if you play h5 instead of Bxg7, he will play Nxh5 and then he will place his knight on g7.>
Now I do not know very much of this KI-stuff, but this theme is also very common in the Argentinian Attack:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 o-o?! 6.o-o-o c6 7.f3 etcetera. Here White plans Bh6, h2-h4-h5 and after Nxh5 immediately Rxh5 shattering Black's kingside position. So I wonder, if this idea is possible in the Barry Attack and it's relatives too?
The move order x.Bxg7 Kxg7 y.h5 has the disadvantage, that Black can defend by playing Rh8 preventing an invasion of the White heavy pieces.
  
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #21 - 05/29/04 at 18:50:00
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I found the game, and I found a few others with a big name playing black.  See Mark Hebden play against his own pet system!  I think that says something about this system for black.

[Event "Vienna op"]
[Site "Vienna"]
[Date "1991.10.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Blatny,Pavel"]
[Black "Ragozin,Evgeni"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D00"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.e3 Bg4 6.Be2 Bxf3 7.Bxf3 c6 8.Qd2 0-0
9.0-0-0 Nbd7 10.g4 Nb6 11.h4 Nc4 12.Qd3 e5 13.Bxe5 Nxe5 14.dxe5 Nd7 15.Be2 Nxe5 16.Qd2 b5
17.f4 Nd7 18.Kb1 Nc5 19.Rdg1 b4 20.Nd1 Rb8 21.h5 Na4 22.Qc1 Qa5 23.Bd3 Nc3+ 24.Nxc3 bxc3
25.b3 c5 26.hxg6 hxg6 27.e4 c4 28.Be2 cxb3 29.cxb3 c2+ 30.Qxc2 Rfc8 31.Qd1 dxe4 32.Rh3 Rd8
33.Qc1 Rd2 34.a3 Rb2+ 0-1

[Event "Lippstadt Turm op"]
[Site "Lippstadt"]
[Date "1999.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Seipel,Andreas"]
[Black "Gutman,Lev"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D00"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bf4 c6 5.e3 Bg4 6.Be2 Bxf3 7.Bxf3 Bg7 8.0-0 0-0
9.Qd2 Nbd7 10.Rad1 Qb6 11.Na4 Qa6 12.b3 Rfe8 13.Nb2 e5 14.dxe5 Nxe5 15.Bxe5 Rxe5 16.Nd3 Ree8
17.a4 Rad8 18.Nf4 Nd7 19.Nd3 Bf8 20.Rfe1 Nf6 21.Nf4 Rd6 22.Qc1 Qa5 23.Rd3 d4 24.g3 Nd7
25.Rdd1 Ne5 26.Be2 dxe3 27.Qxe3 Rdd8 28.Qc1 Nd7 29.Bf3 Nf6 30.Nd3 Bg7 31.Rxe8+ Rxe8 32.Re1 Rd8
33.Re2 Bf8 34.Qe1 Qf5 35.Bg2 h5 36.Re3 h4 37.Bh1 h3 38.Re5 Qd7 39.Re2 Qd4 40.Re3 Nd5
41.Re4 Qc3 42.Qxc3 Nxc3 43.Re1 f5 44.f4 Kf7 45.Bf3 Bg7 46.Kf1 Bd4 47.Nc1 Bf6 48.Nd3 Rd6
49.Kf2 b5 50.axb5 cxb5 51.Ke3 a5 52.Ne5+ Kg7 53.Ra1 Bd8 54.Nd3 Bb6+ 55.Kd2 a4 56.bxa4 bxa4
57.g4 a3 58.Kxc3 Bd4+ 59.Kb3 Bxa1 60.Kxa3  0-1

[Event "Pula op 14th"]
[Site "Pula"]
[Date "2000.05.16"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Feletar,Darko"]
[Black "Cvitan,Ognjen"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D00"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bf4 c6 5.e3 Bg4 6.Be2 Bxf3 7.Bxf3 Bg7 8.0-0 0-0
9.Re1 Re8 10.Qd2 Nbd7 11.e4 dxe4 12.Nxe4 Nxe4 13.Bxe4 e5 14.dxe5 Nxe5 15.Qxd8 Raxd8 16.Bxe5 Bxe5
17.Bd3 Bxb2 18.Rxe8+ Rxe8 19.Rb1 Bd4 20.Kf1 Bc3 21.g3 b5 22.Rd1 Ba5 23.a4 bxa4 24.Ra1 Bb4
25.Rxa4 Re1+ 26.Kg2 a5 27.c3 Bxc3 28.Rc4 Bb4 29.Rxc6 a4 30.Bc4 Be7 31.h4 a3 32.Ra6 Rc1
33.Bd5 Rc2 34.Kf1 Rd2 35.Ra5 Bb4 36.Rb5 Bc3 37.Rc5 Rxd5 38.Rxc3 a2 0-1

[Event "Neuchatel op"]
[Site "Neuchatel"]
[Date "2003.05.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Lamoureux,Charles"]
[Black "Hebden,Mark"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D00"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bf4 c6 5.e3 Bg4 6.Be2 Bxf3 7.Bxf3 Bg7 8.0-0 0-0
9.Qd2 Nbd7 10.Rad1 Qb6 11.Na4 Qa6 12.Nc3 Rfe8 13.Bc7 Rac8 14.Bg3 e5 15.Rfe1 b5 16.a3 Bh6
17.Na2 exd4 18.Qxd4 Bg7 19.Qd2 Nb6 20.Qc1 Qb7 21.c3 Ne4 22.Qc2 f5 23.Nc1 Kh8 24.Nb3 Nc4
25.Nd4 a5 26.Be2 a4 27.Bd3 Nc5 28.h3 Ne5 29.Be2 Rf8 30.Nf3 Nxf3+ 31.Bxf3 Qe7 32.Qe2 Rce8
33.Kh1 Qe6 34.Qf1 g5 35.Qe2 Re7 36.Bh2 Rg8 37.Qc2 g4 38.Be2 Ne4 39.Bf1 gxh3 40.gxh3 Be5
41.Bg2 Bxh2 42.Kxh2 Qd6+ 43.Kh1 Qh6 44.Rg1 Qh4 45.Rdf1 Rg6 46.Kh2 Reg7 47.Qd1 Nxf2 48.Qf3 Ng4+
49.Kh1 Nh6 50.Qf4 Qxf4 51.exf4 Ng4 52.hxg4 Rh6+ 53.Bh3 fxg4 54.Rg3 Rxh3+ 55.Kg2  0-1
  
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #20 - 05/29/04 at 18:22:36
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In reply to the original post, I think the Barry Attack/150 Attack repertoire is the most dangerous of the three options given by FusterCluck.  I have had a number of quick wins with these crude systems against Class A opposition (~1900).  I think the Barry Attack is a good one-game system, as it really does have a lot of sting after normal moves for Black.  But, I still think it is garbage, so I don't think it should be your main system.  Though, if you want to be practical, if 1900s can't find anything convincing over the board, it certainly should work for U1600.   Wink

If you want to learn these systems, Summerscale's A Killer Chess Opening Repertoire is probably as good as any other book to look at.  However, I think he omits the most challenging systems (or to be precise, the best move orders).  The problem with the Barry Attack is that Black has a few active systems that I think at least fully equalize for him.  One the simplest plans for black that I remember is the one used in Blatny-Ragozin (I think), where black plays an early ...Bg4 (before white's Be2), exchanges with ...Bxf3 upon Be2, and plays for an early ...e5 as a temporary sacrifice.  I remember black getting a terrible initiative.  (OK, a 1600 coming up with an idea like this close to nil!)  It's a very nice game anyway, so you should take a look at it!

Many of the systems that Summerscale recommends are quick-fix one-game systems that really shouldn't make your primary systems if you are serious about improving in the long term.  For example, the Classical KID is a good opening to learn, that will serve you well in the long term.  Also there many different ways to play a main line opening like this, so you don't get stuck if a line doesn't work (which is almost inevitable with these quick-fix systems).   Though, one of advantage of dabbling with these quick-fix systems, is that you see why they don't completely work (if you keep an open mind, and accept the possiblity your pet system could be refuted--guys, that also goes for Blackmar-Diemer!).

On another note, the replies in this thread have been really strange.  I never thought I would ever see "1600 players" and "excellent positional understanding" used together in the same sentence!

And if any find the Blatny-Ragozin game (if I have the names right) before I do, go ahead and post it!
  
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Re: How should i attack the KID?
Reply #19 - 05/18/04 at 19:59:09
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As I said on 10.bxa5 i prefer either 10..Rxa5 or 10..Nd7. I usually play 10..Rxa5 and then 11..b6 or 11..Nd7. Of course I cannot be sure of how good really are these lines, but in the middle of fight they work well. Also the strongest players I have played against don't play the bayonet but other lines.
  
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