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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 (Read 35995 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3
Reply #7 - 02/04/06 at 16:04:19
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Isn't this thread in the wrong place?  Can the misplaced threads still be moved?
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3
Reply #6 - 12/17/04 at 12:44:21
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For whatever reason when I wrote the above I had assumed that "Chesspub" would have nothing on this variation.  Now I see a game with the 4...b5 gambit in this month's update and that he as there is other relevant games on this variation (ECO code A43).  Nothing that changes my opinion that this is a good (albeit risky -- isn't that sorta true of the whole Modern Benoni?) way for Black to play for a win.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3
Reply #5 - 05/28/04 at 23:04:17
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I've done a little more research on this line but my newest source is from 1999.  However, coupled with some games from Chessbase at least this can serve as some analysis to comment and expand on. 

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 

A.  4...Qa5?! 5.Bd2 b5 6.Ne4 Qb6 7.Nxf6+ gxf6 8.e4 Rg8 didn't work to well for Black in Akesson-Hector 1986.

B.  4...exd5 5.Nxd5 Nxd5 6.Qxd5 d6 (According to NCO this is best.  Other moves allowing White a slight advantage.  (so your idea seems correct Michael) 7.Ng5 Qe7 8.Bf4 Be6 9.Nxe6 fxe5 10.Qd2 e5 11.Bg5 Qe6 12.e4 Nc6 13.c3 h6 14.Be3 0-0-0 15.b3 Be7 = Wells-Ward 1987 from NCO.

C.  4...a6!? (probably ?!, but "A Killer Chess OPening Repertoire" has 4...g6 5.e4 d6 ("to prevent e5") 6.Bb5 ("taking advantage of Black's move order"), so I wondered if Black might insert 4...a6 and after 5.a4 continue with 5...g6, but White should play...) 5.e4 b5 6.e5 when I think he has the advantage but it's not entirely clear so someone might want to look deeper into this.

D.  4...b5!? (I wasn't too keen on this at first but after looking at some games, and giving it a quick once over on Fritz, this is definitely what I would try right now in a must win situation.)

  I.  5.dxe5 fxe6 6.Nxb5 Qa5+ 7.Nc3 d5 8.e3 a6!? (The previously mentioned Speelman-Alburt game had gone 8...Be7 9.Be2 0-0 10.0-0 Nc6 11.Bd2 Qd8 12.b3 Kh8 13.Bd3 Bb7 14.e4 with NCO giving White a slight advantage.  Here Black aims for a more agressive piece setup.) 9.Be2 Bd6 10.0-0 Qc7 11.h3 0-0 12.b3 Nbd7 13.Bb2 Bb7 14.Re1 Rae8 and 0-1 in 40 in Cosma-Senft.

II.  5.Bg5 b4 6.Ne4 Bb7 (NCO stops here with unclear) 7.c4 (Hebden vs. Van der Weid went 7.Bxf6 gxf6 8.c4 bxc3, but how about 8...f5!?.  Btw, Hebden won that game.) 7...bxc3 (7...Be7!?, Fritz) 8.Bxf6 c2 9.Qxc2 (9.Bxd8!?) 9...gxf6 10.dxe6 fxe6 11.Nfd2 Bxe4 12.Qxe4 Nc6 13.Qh4 h5 14.e3 Rb8 15.Rb1 f5 16.Qg3 Qf6 17.Nc4 e5 18.Qh3 (it looked strange to me to allow ...d5 so easily, Fritz gives 18.Rd1 Qe6 19.Na3!? d5 20.Bb5 Rb6 as about equal.  Clearly not your everday run of the mill position.) d5 19.Nd2 c4 20.Be2 Bb4, 0-1 Winkler-Simmelink 1999.    
« Last Edit: 12/17/04 at 12:29:59 by Glenn Snow »  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3
Reply #4 - 05/28/04 at 17:18:57
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I'm no expert on these lines so forgive me if this comment is a daft one, but after 4 ... ed 5 Nd5 Nd5 6 Qd5, is 6 ...d6 perhaps the most accurate move, aiming to meet 7 e4 with 7 ...Be7 rather than 7 ...Nc6 perhaps? I agree it all looks rather boring (for which reason I might myself prefer 4 ...d6, which I can't see anything wrong with), but boring isn't the same as inferior ...
  
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3
Reply #3 - 05/28/04 at 03:48:04
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Thanks for the research work and the suggestions, Glenn!

I am a bit uneasy about 4...Qa5 5.Bd2.  What is Black's idea then?  5...Qb6 6.e4 when it looks horribly risky to grab the b2 pawn, and 5...exd5 6.Nxd5 Qd8 7.Bg5 don't look particularly appealing.  Am I missing something?

As for 4...exd5(! - probably best, I guess) 5.Nxd5, what is the best way for Black to proceed? 5...Nxd5 6.Qxd5 Nc6 looks natural, but now 7.e4 and then what?  It is all a bit dull looking.

Maybe the answer is to play 2...e6, but of course that allows the Torre and cuts out a lot of dynamic ...d6/...g6 options against White's other "d-pawn specials" (Colle/London Systems).
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3
Reply #2 - 05/27/04 at 22:17:39
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Both Tisdall and Plaskett have tried 4...Qa5!?  Of course another option is 4...d6.  Of course if White plays 4.Nc3 and is trying to win then Black still has decent chances to win himself with 4...exd5.
  
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3
Reply #1 - 05/27/04 at 22:10:30
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Here is what had been discussed previously in other threads:

"I think the line Glenn Snow mentions (1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3!?) is a bit more annoying for Black (although certainly not life-threatening!). It is worth considering playing 3...b5 (instead of 3...e6) there - although you must be prepared for both 4.c4 (transposing to a Benko Gambit Declined), and 4.Bg5!? when both 4...Qb6 or 4...Ne4 are interesting and relatively uncharted.", Alumbrado.

"I agree that 1.d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 is slightly annoying, since I think 4...exd5 is the only equalizing option. My feelings about 4.Nc3 are simiilar to how I feel about 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+. Not really that exciting, but if black knows the right moves, he has no trouble. In most openings as black, it's hard to play for a win if your opening has no ambitions. In a way, 4.Nc3 and 3.e3 are similar in that they lack ambition, yet can become dangerous if black plays too ambitiously (or unattentively!).", X.

"I had a game with Jon Speelman last weekend which started 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 c5 3 d5 e6 4 Nc3, and afterwards we fell to discussing 4...b5, which Jon described as 'arguing that White's knight is misplaced on f3' (because he can't play f3). Not sure what that proves - nothing, probably - but I found it an interesting remark.", John Cox.

"As a Benoni player who finds the line .d4 Nf4 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3!? more than a little annoying, I had never seriously contemplated a Blumenfeld style response! I am going to have to have a look at that  Is it completely out of the question for White just to take the pawn with (4...b5) 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.Nxb5 ?", Alumbrado.

"Not remotely out of the question, I shouldn't think. 4...b5 doesn't strike me as a terribly great idea. The game Speelman-Alburt (on ChessBase) didn't strike me as a wonderful advert for it either.", John Cox.
  
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alumbrado
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1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3
05/27/04 at 02:31:00
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What should Black do here?  I find it difficult to summon up enthusiasm for playing this line after 4...exd5 5.Nxd5 Undecided

Elsewhere in the forum, John Cox suggests 4...b5!? Can Black get away with that or can White simply play 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.Nxb5, and 'take the money and run'?

Does anybody else have any suggestions or views on this?  Is there a way to spice things up without lobbing a pawn on the fire?

I am guessing this really belongs in the d-pawn specials forum, but I want some Benoni players' perspectives on it, rather than the usual motley crew of BDGeers, Trompovskyites and Colle-Zukertortians you get over there!  Grin

In particular if Messrs Emms or Palliser have anything to say about it, that would be greatly appreciated!!  8)
« Last Edit: 05/27/04 at 05:42:28 by alumbrado »  

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