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Normal Topic Caro-Kann/BDG (Read 3994 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Caro-Kann/BDG
Reply #6 - 06/05/04 at 09:55:05
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Funny you should say that.  My last encounter with the Caro-Kann was a draw with the 3.f3 variation versus master Jim Mills.  However many years ago I beat him with 4.Bc4/5.f3, so obviously the gambit is superior.  Grin

Seriously though, I became reinterested in the f3 gambit lines on learning how easy it was for Black to lose versus the Alchemy variation.  To avoid the ...Nh6 defense I've played 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Bc4 Bf5, and now instead of 5.f3 I've been successful (in speed chess anyway) with 5.Nge2 and if necessary Qe2 to regain the pawn.  I have no idea if this is threatening to Black in any theoretical sense however.
  
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MNb
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Re: Caro-Kann/BDG
Reply #5 - 06/05/04 at 08:45:36
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After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.f3 e3 6.Bxe3 I think the set up Nge2, o-o, Ng3, f3-f4-f5 preserves an edge.
4...b5 should be taken more seriously indeed.
To be honest, I have played this gambit only occasionally and prefer 3.f3.
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: Caro-Kann/BDG
Reply #4 - 06/04/04 at 09:52:31
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After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Bc4, some have thought that 4...b5 might be a problem (although I have my doubts if White playes correctly).  Also, after 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.f3 Bf5, I'm not too sure about White's compensation, but he does get some play.  One more thought, after 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.f3 e3, I would rather not have my Bishop commited to c4 yet (actually I would rather have just saved the move to get in the g4,h4, Nge2-f4 plan earlier).  In the lines you gave you claim at worst equality for White so to me it still looks like a matter of taste since there are potential problems with 4.Bc4 too.

In both your variations "A" and "B" (after 15.Qf7) I think Black is a little better, but it's interesting and hopefully I'm wrong.  Let me know if you find something even better!  Perhaps someone should email the people who came up with the Alchemy variation your analysis.
  
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MNb
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Re: Caro-Kann/BDG
Reply #3 - 06/04/04 at 05:42:37
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Milner Barry Gambit: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.f3?! (1930)
A) 4...Nf6 5.Nxe4 Nxe4 6.fxe4 e5 7.Nf3 exd4 8.Bc4 Be7! is equal.
B) 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 and I do not see anything but the transposing 6.Bc4.
C) 4...e5 5.Be3 Bb4 (Be6!?) 6.dxe5 is equal and 6.Bc4 Qa5 too.
So there is little point in playing 4.f3 indeed.

The Von Hennig Gambit: 4.Bc4 (1920) Bf5 5.f3 exf3 6.Nxf3 e6 7.o-o Nd7 8.Ng5 Nh6 (Bg6 9.Bxe6!) 9.Nxe6! fxe6 (Bxe6 10.Bxe6 fxe6 11.Bxh6 is good for White) 10.Bxh6 gxh6 11.Rxf5! exf5 12.Qh5+ Ke7 13.Ne4! Qa5 (Qc7 14Re1 unclear) 14.Nf6 Kd6 (Ne5 15.Qxf5 Nxc4 16.Qd7+ Kxf6 17.Rf1+ mates) 15.Qf7 (independently I came this far too)
A) 15...Rd8 16.c3 Kc7 17.Be6 Bd6 18.Nxd7 Rhe8 19.Ne5+ Re7 20.Qf6 is unclear.
B) 15...Qd8 16.Nxd7 Qxd7 17.Qf6+ Kc7 18.Rxh8 Re8 is about equal.
I find it hard to believe, that 7...Nd7 is better than 7...Nf6, so I am curious too if there are holes in this analysis.

7...Be7 8.Ne5 Bg6 (Bxc2 and both 9.Nxf7 and 9.Qxc2 are playable) 9.Nxg6 hxg6 10.Ne4 Nf6
11.Ng5 Owen-Sammes, corr 1987, o-o 12.Bxe6 fxe6 13.Nxe6 unclear.
In general pawn e6 seems to be subject of White's sacs.

I am very interested in practical examples of Rajmunde's Alchemy Variation as this seems the
critical line of the Von Hennig-Milner Barry Gambit and also is very important for the BDG (invented by Ciesielski in 1870).
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: Caro-Kann/BDG
Reply #2 - 06/02/04 at 16:04:10
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I assure you I didn't ignore you it's just that I agreed with MNB's response to your assertion that 4.Bc4 is clearly better.  Truth be told 4.Bc4 is the only move that I have actually played in tournaments because I did fear 4...e5!? after 4.f3.  After reading Tim's article (chesscafe.com) and seeing some other analysis on 4.f3 I'm no longer sure which is better. 

My original question is still valid with 4.Bc4 though.  After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Bc4 Bf5 5.f3 exf3 6.Nxf3 e6 7.0-0 Nd7 we've tranposed to the defence I mentioned.  Of course White does have alternatives at moves 5-7.
  
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Re: Caro-Kann/BDG
Reply #1 - 06/02/04 at 14:48:10
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Yet again, you people ignore me!   Angry

1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 Nc3 dxe4 4 f3?? e5!!

Black is at worst equal immediately, much better than the Lemberger Gambit which GM Prie has been fervently arguing for in the past month or so.  If you want to play BDG style against the Caro, 4 Bc4! is the move. 

Anyway,
1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Bf5 4 f3 exf3 5 Qxf3 is cited in IM Lane's book and only given two small excerpts (which I don't feel like typing because it's so obscure).

Embarrassed
NeX iRae
  
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Glenn Snow
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Caro-Kann/BDG
06/02/04 at 06:57:34
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I suppose this could go under the "d-pawn specials" section but I think the particular defence that I'm curious about is more likely to come from the Caro-Kann move order.  After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Bc4 e6 7.0-0, and now instead of 7...Nf6 which (as pointed out by Teyko) allows the fascinating "Alchemy" variation, Black plays 7...Nd7.  I've actually faced this quite a few times on ICC in blitz games.  I've been trying to find White's best way to pursue the initiative but haven't found anything too convincing yet.  One remarkable set of moves goes 7.Ng5 (analogous to the Alchemy variation) 7...Nh6! (7...Bg6 8.Bxe6 fxe6 9.Nxe6 Qc8 10.Qe2) 8.Nxe6!? fxe6 9.Bxh6 gxh6 10.Rxf5!? (maybe White should be playing 10.Bxe6!? but I wasn't sure how to continue after 10...Bg6) 10...exf5 11.Qh5+ Ke7 12.Ne4! Qa5! 13.Nf6!? Kd6 (13...Ne5 14.Qxf5!) 14.Qf7 Rd8, and now the best I've found still leaves White at a slight disadvantage.  Anybody know a better way to play White or see any holes in my analysis?  Perhaps this variation already has some analysis on it somewhere?

By the way I thought it would probably come from the Caro-Kann move order because after 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Bf5!? (I didn't find this move in "The BDG Keybook II) 4.f3 exf3 wouldn't White probably try 5.Qxf3 here?
  
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