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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C38: Hanstein Gambit (Read 19354 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #23 - 03/24/09 at 19:17:13
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MNb wrote on 03/24/09 at 10:27:02:
25...Kf8 (iso 25...Qe6) 26.Rad1 Rxd6 27.Rd5 Qe6 28.Bxe5 Rxd5 29.Qxd5 Qxd5 30.exd5 Bf5 looks like an improved version of that endgame as its wins at least one tempo.

More ambitious is 18...b6 (iso 18...Bf6) 19.Nd2 Ba6 20.Rf2 Ng6 21.Nxg6 Kxg6 22.h3 h5 23.Qc2 Be5.

In the first line (25...Kf8 26.Rad1 Rxd6), 27.Bh4! seems stronger: 27...Qe6 28.Rxd6 Qxd6 29.Rd1 c4 (29...Qe6 30.Rd8+ Kf7 31. Dd5 +-) 30.Rxd6 +/-. 
Against 18...b6 19.Nd2 Ba6, the PC likes 20.e5! Bxf1 21.Rxf1 +/-.  
  
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MNb
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #22 - 03/24/09 at 10:27:02
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I fully share your sentiments. That knight manoeuvre from h4 to h5 is pure genius. Grünfeld must have had no idea what happened to him.

14...g4 15 Nh4 f3 16 Qb3+ Be6 17 d5 Bc8 18 Bf4 Bf6 19 Nd2 Bxh4 20 gxh4 Ng6 21 Bg3 Qf6 22 Nc4 Rd8 23 h5 Ne5 (23...Nf4 24 Rae1) 24 Nxe5+ dxe5 25 d6+ Qe6 26 Bxe5 Qxb3+ 27 axb3 Re8 28 Bg3 Rxe4 29 Rfe1 Rxe1+ 30 Rxe1 Be6 31 Bh4 resp. 29...Re6 30 Be5 Bd7 31 Re4 Rae8 += is slightly unpleasant for Black I have to admit, but he can avoid this.

25...Kf8 (iso 25...Qe6) 26.Rad1 Rxd6 27.Rd5 Qe6 28.Bxe5 Rxd5 29.Qxd5 Qxd5 30.exd5 Bf5 looks like an improved version of that endgame as its wins at least one tempo.
More ambitious is 18...b6 (iso 18...Bf6) 19.Nd2 Ba6 20.Rf2 Ng6 21.Nxg6 Kxg6 22.h3 h5 23.Qc2 Be5.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #21 - 03/24/09 at 02:29:24
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MNb wrote on 03/22/09 at 11:24:21:
A question - what about 12...Ne7 13.g3 c5 14.Qa3 g4 15.Nh4 f3 ? Usually I am not fond about this "American" approach (Fischer ao preferred it to Alapin's ...Bh3 in quite another position). In this specific case the queen is offside on square a3, which means that sacrifices on f3 are not successfull. That would make me prefer Black, eg 16.dxc5 dxc5 17.Be3 b6 18.h3 h5 19.Nd2 Bf6. Here 17.h3 h5 18.Bg5 Qc7 does not look any better.


This pawn formation was one of the reasons why I liked the Hanstein. Spielmann - Grünfeld, sweet memories... White can take on f3 when he pleases, but doesn't always have to. 14...g4 15 Nh4 f3 16 Qb3+ Be6 17 d5 Bc8 18 Bf4 Bf6 19 Nd2 Bxh4 20 gxh4 Ng6 21 Bg3 Qf6 22 Nc4 Rd8 23 h5 Ne5 (23...Nf4 24 Rae1) 24 Nxe5+ dxe5 25 d6+ Qe6 26 Bxe5 Qxb3+ 27 axb3 Re8 28 Bg3 Rxe4 29 Rfe1 Rxe1+ 30 Rxe1 Be6 31 Bh4 resp. 29...Re6 30 Be5 Bd7 31 Re4 Rae8 +=.

Thx to David Flude for the interesting game. The Hanstein remains an interesting option for White, if he is willing to play the Muzio Gambit. But Black has many alternatives left.
  
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MNb
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #20 - 03/22/09 at 11:24:21
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A question - what about 12...Ne7 13.g3 c5 14.Qa3 g4 15.Nh4 f3 ? Usually I am not fond about this "American" approach (Fischer ao preferred it to Alapin's ...Bh3 in quite another position). In this specific case the queen is offside on square a3, which means that sacrifices on f3 are not successfull. That would make me prefer Black, eg 16.dxc5 dxc5 17.Be3 b6 18.h3 h5 19.Nd2 Bf6. Here 17.h3 h5 18.Bg5 Qc7 does not look any better.
  

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Re: Hanstein Gambit something quite different
Reply #19 - 03/22/09 at 10:29:47
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This game illustrates a totally different idea for black.

  

savage.pgn ( 0 KB | Downloads )

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #18 - 03/21/09 at 01:18:44
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Reply to micamber's previous post (blue moves = micamber).

(a) 12....Ne7 13.g3
(a1) 13....b6 14.Qa6 only improves the Queens position 
[...] it is not clear that Qa6 benefits White. 
I still think so. 

(a2) 13...c5 14.Qa3
Question: What about 14...Bh3!?"
15.Rf2 and White is better.
COMMENT 15....fxg3 16.hxg3, Kg6= 17.Be3,Qd7= You are probably right (15...Ng6 looks also okay).

(b) 12...c5 13.Qa3. Here you suggest three moves:
(b1) 13...Qe7 14.Nbd2 Kg6 15.Nc4 Bc6  16.e5 looks good for White.
COMMENT Seems no more than equal after 16...Bxf3 17.gxf3,cxd4 =/+ or  16....Bxf3 17.Rxf3,dxe5=
18.dxe5 Bxe5 19.Bd2 (19.Be3!?) with some pressure. 

(b2) 13...Qc7! 14.Qb3+ 

(b21) 14...Be6? 15.d5 Bd7 16.Nbd2 Rc8
COMMENT 16...Re8= would have hindered e5
17.a4 Kg6 18.Nc4 Bf6 (18...Rxe4 19.Qc2 Bf5 20.g4!) 19.Re1 +=.

....17.e5
COMMENT 17....Bxe5 unclear)
18.Nxe5+ dxe5 19.Nc4 b5 20.Bxf4 exf4 21.d6 Qd8 22.Ne5+ Kf6 23.Qf7+ Kxe5 24.Rad1 Nf6 25.Rfe1+ Kf5 26.h3 f3 27.Kh2!! and mate in a few moves.

(b22) 14...Kg6 15.g3 fxg3 16.hxg3 (16.e5 Bf5 17.Bf4!?) Rf8 17.Be3, for example 17...Bh3 18.Nbd2, and White has an attractive position.
COMMENT In my view Black is better after the less greedy 17...Nf6! -/+ (iso 17...Bh3)
Yes, seems to be better, 18.Nbd2 Ng4 19.Rae1, =+. Maybe White should prefer 17.e5 or perhaps 15.Na3 Re8 16.h4 (16.Re1) cxd4 17.hxg5 hxg5 18.Nxg5 Nh6 19.Bxf4 Bf6 20.Nh3 or 14.g3. But for the moment 13...Qc7 looks solid and best and I don't even see a clear equalizing line for White. 

(b3) After 13...cxd4 White has a choice, e.g. 14.Qxd6 =. So 13...Qc7 should be the main line. 
  
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micawber
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #17 - 03/20/09 at 21:40:27
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Reply to Stephan Buecker's previous post.
His variations are coloured red
My reaction is coloured blue


(a)[ 12....Ne7 13.g3
(a1) 13....b6 14.Qa6 only improves the Queens position

COMMENT after 15....Ng6 or 15....fxg3 16.hxg3,Kg6 there is nothing wrong
with Black's position and it is not clear that Qa6 benefits White.



(a2) 13...c5 14.Qa3  
Question: What about 14...Bh3!?"
15.Rf2 and White is better.
COMMENT 15....fxg3 16.hxg3, Kg6= 17.Be3,Qd7=

(b) 12...c5 13.Qa3. Here you suggest three moves:
(b1) 13...Qe7. 14.Nbd2 Kg6 15.Nc4 Bc6  16.e5 looks good for White.

COMMENT Seems no more than equal after 16...Bxf3 17.gxf3,cxd4 =/+ or  16....Bxf3 17.Rxf3,dxe5=

(b2) 13...Qc7 14.Qb3+ 

(b21) 14...Be6? 15.d5 Bd7 16.Nbd2 Rc8

COMMENT 16...Re8= would have hindered e5
....17.e5
COMMENT 17....Bxe5 unclear)

(b22) 14...Kg6 15.g3 fxg3 16.hxg3 (e5?!) Rf8 17.Be3, for example 17...Bh3 18.Nbd2, and White has an attractive position.
COMMENT In my view Black is better after the less greedy 17...Nf6! -/+ (iso 17...Bh3)


(b3)13...cxd4 14.cxd4 (Qxd6=) Qb6 15.Nc3 Bxd4+
COMMENT again greed is a deadly sin: 15....Ne7!= is better.
16.Nxd4 Qxd4+ 17.Kh1 and Black's King won't have an easy life.

I don't claim that White has an advantage. We probably agree that objectively Black has equal play or is only slightly worse. But in my opinion the positions are easier to play for White. There are several tactical threats in the position (Bxf4, e4-e5, g3, perhaps also b2-b4 or h2-h4), and most players find it easier to attack than to defend.

COMMENT I agree that the judgement of these position is partly 
a matter of style and personal taste. But there is nothing wrong 
with Black's position. I consider these positions perfectly playable.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #16 - 03/20/09 at 19:47:07
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10...Ke7! 11.Qa3 Kxf7 12.Qxa5

(a) 12....Ne7 13.g3 c5 (your 13...b6? 14.Qa6 only improves the position of the Qa5) 14.Qa3 "Question: What about 14...Bh3!?" 15.Rf2 and White is better.

(b) 12...c5 13.Qa3. Here you suggest three moves:
(b1) 13...Qe7. 14.Nbd2 Kg6 15.Nc4 Bc6 (b5!?) 16.e5 looks good for White. 
(b2) 13...Qc7 14.Qb3+ Kg6 (14...Be6? 15.d5 Bd7 16.Nbd2 Rc8 17.e5) 15.g3 fxg3 16.hxg3 (e5?!) Rf8 17.Be3, for example 17...Bh3 18.Nbd2, and White has an attractive position. 
(b3) 13...cxd4 14.cxd4 (Qxd6=) Qb6 15.Nc3 Bxd4+ 16.Nxd4 Qxd4+ 17.Kh1 and Black's King won't have an easy life. 

I don't claim that White has an advantage. We probably agree that objectively Black has equal play or is only slightly worse. But in my opinion the positions are easier to play for White. There are several tactical threats in the position (Bxf4, e4-e5, g3, perhaps also b2-b4 or h2-h4), and most players find it easier to attack than to defend.
  
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micawber
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #15 - 03/20/09 at 15:47:24
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10...Ke7 iso ....Kf8 does make a rather big difference.
After 10....Ke7 11.Qd5,c6 where do you want to go with your Queen?
Probably nowhere since it is trapped.  Wink


So Stefan Buecker rightly provides another variation:
but after 10...Ke7! 11.Qa3 Kxf7 12.Qxa5 Black has the additional option 12...c5 13.Qa3 (White is slightly worse after 13.Qxd8) 
and now
13...Qe7; 13...Qc7 and 13...cxd4 all are acceptable continuations for Black. 
Subscribers can find my thoughts on these variations in the KG-playable book, where  10...Ke7! is taken as the move-order.

On After 12....Ne7 The continuation 13.g3,c5 14.Qa3,Qc7 (Buecker) is a new idea.

Question: What about 14...Bh3!?

I think that Black can also consider 13..b6 with the idea 14.Qa3,Bh3
15.Rf2 and now either 15...fxg 16.hxg,Kg6 or 15....Ng6.
  
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MNb
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #14 - 03/20/09 at 14:19:23
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Woah, it's a long time ago I wrote those words. Since then my opinion on this lines has changed somewhat. What I disliked and still dislike is all those queen moves and White's undeveloped queen's wing. But now I think indeed that Black has problems to finish his development properly as well.
So I don't know.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #13 - 03/20/09 at 12:51:19
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MNb wrote on 06/21/04 at 05:18:19:

Don't trust Bücker and McDonald.

Wise words. 

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Bc4 Bg7 5.0-0 d6 6.d4 Nc6 7.c3 h6 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Na5 10.Bxf7+ Kf8. 
Your move. I don't know whether it really makes a difference, but after 10...Ke7! 11.Qa3 Kxf7 12.Qxa5 Black has the additional options 12...c5 and 12...Kg6. 
11.Qd5! Ne7!
11...c6? 12.Qxd6+ Kxf7 13.Bxf4 gxf4 14.Qxf4+ Ke8 15.Nbd2 b6 16.b4 Nb7 17.Qg3 Qe7 18.e5 and White is better. 
12.Qxa5 Kxf7
I like White's center pawns and doubt that Black's task is easier. For example: 13.g3 c5 14.Qa3 Qc7 15.gxf4 g4 16.Nh4 cxd4 17.cxd4 Bxd4+ 18.Be3 Qb6 19.Bxd4 Qxd4+ 20.Rf2 (about =) 20...Qd1+ 21.Kg2 Qd4 22.Nc3 Qf6 23.Kg3. 
  
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #12 - 07/11/06 at 15:26:26
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Quote:
I think Black has good play in the 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Na5 line but I'm not sure he is actually better.  So far Fritz rates it as fairly equal although it might be easier to play Black over-the-board.


yes, Black just gives the pawn back, reorganises by ...Rf8, ...Kg6-h7 and Black's position is much easier to play

Quote:
Right now anyway I would certainly prefer 8.Qa4 to 8.g3.  It has the surprise factor on it side and the positions are so murky surely the better prepared player would have a decent practical advantage.  Anyway, it just shows how much there is left to be investigated even if the variation is probably destined for the scrapheap.


And on 8 Qa4 Kf8, White can always try 9 g3!?.
  

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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #11 - 06/30/04 at 00:21:38
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I have to agree.  Even if Black isn't objectively better (although he probably is Fritz keeps saying things are roughly equal after 9.Qb3 Na5) his position looks easier to handle in practice.   

I'm not too excited about 8.b4 either though.  Certainly White has some compensation but I doubt he has enough to even claim equality.  Once again Fritz 8 says things are about equal (isn't Fritz supposed to be materialistic?).  I find this hard to believe.  (Maybe I'll get another engine sometime.  Grin )
  
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MNb
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #10 - 06/25/04 at 05:12:06
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I do not like 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 is 9...Na5!?.  After 10.Bxf7+ Kf8 11.Qa3 Kxf7 12.Qxa5 and now Nge7 seems good for Black: advantage in development.
But what about 8.b4!? McDonald's analysis can be improved on - White should not play Bc1-a3-b4xa5 too easily after b5/Na5 - so Nf6 is critical.
  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: Hanstein Gambit
Reply #9 - 06/24/04 at 23:08:18
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I'm not too convinced by Schiller's 8...Kf8.  I do like his reply 9.b4 though.  After 9...Bd7, Fritz recommends 10.Bb5 Nce7 11.Qb3 as good for White and this looks good to me.

I think Black has good play in the 8.Qa4 Bd7 9.Qb3 Na5 line but I'm not sure he is actually better.  So far Fritz rates it as fairly equal although it might be easier to play Black over-the-board.  

It's kinda hard to believe in a move like 8.Qa4 but there are precedants for early harrassing pawn grabs by Queens in the opening (doesn't the Najdorf poisoned pawn variation defy logic?).  Here, though, White provokes a devoping move (8...Bd7) to set up the double-threat and this is a scary thought.  

Right now anyway I would certainly prefer 8.Qa4 to 8.g3.  It has the surprise factor on it side and the positions are so murky surely the better prepared player would have a decent practical advantage.  Anyway, it just shows how much there is left to be investigated even if the variation is probably destined for the scrapheap.
« Last Edit: 02/24/05 at 18:23:57 by Glenn Snow »  
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