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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K. (Read 37376 times)
Fernando Semprun
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #41 - 03/03/05 at 07:56:03
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I believe the Philidor is explained very well in Kosten's book. I even had a chat about the opening with him in 1993, at the strong Oviedo Open.

I played it in 1993 and 1994, after a horrible loss with the Schveningen that was published in the Spanish Newspaper ABC (sacrifices in f5 and d5) and (here is one with no moves just general feeling... 8)) while the results were good (against players like Westerinen, Markzon, Campora) (and the move order 1.e4 d6 can be employed to avoid the KG) the resulting positions are somewhat passive and one has to work hard to win (very hard). If white tries nothing and stays solid it is very difficult for black to do anything (I am talking the Antoshin, which I believe is the only playable one)

I found that nobody bothered with 6.Bf4. Strong players normally went for the fianchetto, 4.Qd4 or just 6.Be2.

It is hard to play with black so passively, at least for me. As a surprise weapon or as a second defence in a long tournament, fully worth it. (I saw Tamasz Georgadze win a tournament with this defence against FIDE master Montecatine. He just wasnot expecting the philidor and did not know what to do!)

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TalJechin
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #40 - 01/30/05 at 06:13:55
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MNb, while waiting for AA, you can read what Short himself thinks here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?view=CHESSCONTENT&grid=P8&RangeStartV...
  
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Markovich
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #39 - 01/25/05 at 11:28:07
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Quote:
I'm afraid that the much maligned Philidor defence while perhaps not as bad as theory suggests, is certainly not a comfortable opening for Black.


My thinking exactly.  I suspect that "Black is O.K.," but his game is difficult and dreary.
  

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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #38 - 01/24/05 at 20:49:13
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I just wonder, what comment AA has on Short-Morozevitsj, Wijk aan Zee 2005?
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #37 - 11/08/04 at 09:29:23
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I looked at a couple of lines where white omits Rg1 and sacs the g-pawn.  It is dangerous but if black can defend against immediate threats then positionally he's doing quite well.  The h-file remains closed and black now has the f6 square for his bishop.

Blacks counterplay is slower than in many sicilians since he's most relying on pawn play than active pieces, but a plan involving Re8/Bf8 may shore up the kingside long enough for black to get the pawns rolling.  I think at least 9.Nf5 is as logical as 9.f3 because in the game you gave (Luther - Sedlak) white played Nf5 on the next move and it is debatable whether or not f3 is particularly useful.  I suppose Luther hadn't counted on black offering the d6 pawn.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #36 - 11/04/04 at 07:25:25
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I haven't seen much of the chess board since last time, but since you ask I'll try to give a quick opinion:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Bf4 0-0 7.Qd2 a6 8.0-0-0 b5 9.Nf5!?N Bxf5 10.exf5

It's possible that I'm too optimistic, but I'm not sure that white's pawn storm is considerably more dangerous than black's a5, a4 and b3, even if it must be respected of course.
White has no open files, so I think black should be OK as he still has time to create counter play while white's pieces join the kingside pawns.

People versed in the Najdorf would probably know better than I how to conduct black's defence. Some ideas seem obvious, a well timed b5-b4, a5-a4 and b3 is of course one major device for counter play.
Another is soaking up the attack najdorf style, with Nf6-d7-e5/c5/f8 and being able to meet f5-f6 with Bf8. So ...Re8 should be a useful move I think. Even if the c-file isn't half open as in the Najdorf, black seems able to put the other najdorf characteristics to good use.

Here's a couple of sample variations with some typical(?) ideas. Sorry that I don't have much time to delve into it deeper at the moment, I hope this will be useful to set you off analysing though.

A) 10...b4 11.Nd5 Nxd5 12.Qxd5 Nd7 ( 12...c6 13.Qd2 d5 14.g4‚ 'with a strong attack for white, blacks play on the queenside is too slow at the moment.') 13.h4!? (stopping ...Bg5) 13...a5 ( Fritz prefers 13...Bxh4? by the way.) 14.g4 a4 15.g5 b3 ( 15...c6?! (to be able to block with ...f6) 16.Qxc6 b3 17.Bc4! +/-) 16.f6 bxa2 17.Qxa2 gxf6 is probably slightly better for white, though OTB black should probably have some chances too.

B) 10...Nbd7 11.Rg1 [ I doubt that Rg1 is necessary though, since 11.g4 Nxg4? 12.Rg1 looks pretty dangerous to me.]

11...Re8 [ 11...Ne5 12.Be2 Nc4 13.Bxc4 bxc4 14.g4 'and again whites attack is strong and quick.'] 12.g4 b4! 13.Nd5 Nxd5 14.Qxd5 Bg5! with even chances?

  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #35 - 11/03/04 at 14:19:01
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Personally I think the Antoshin is a very reasonable opening for black below a certain level.  It's pretty solid and black can often generate good play with his queenside pawns.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 ed 4.Qd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 followed by 0-0 and Nc6 is perhaps the best way to meet 4.Qd4 - I don't see why 4...a6 is necessary at all.

Regarding the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 ed 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Bf4 0-0 7.Qd2 a6!? 8.0-0-0 b5

Someone at my club has now suggested 9.Nf5!? immediately.  9...Bf5 10.ef and now white intends to steamroller black with Rg1/g4/g5/f6 etc. 

A couple of sample lines.  10...b4 11.Nd5 Nd5 12.Qd5 c6 13.Qd2 d5 14.g4 with a strong attack for white, blacks play on the queenside is too slow at the moment.

10...Nbd7 11.Rg1 Ne5 (to prevent g4) 12.Be2 Nc4 13.Bc4 bc 14.g4 and again whites attack is strong and quick.

A.A I look forward to hearing your opinions about this line, personally I feel it may well be superior to 9.f3 as it is more direct.  It certainly looks dangerous from my point of view.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #34 - 07/28/04 at 16:05:35
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At the risk of being chastised for yet more silly moves by TopNotch ( Wink), I wish to bring peoples attention to a TN found by Shirov in 2003, which won the best novelty award in, I think, informator's top 10 novelties.

The line runs 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.g4!? (I have used the pirc move order, but the philidor move order is just as viable. I'm sure people are currently asking who I think I am to pollute this thread with such garbage, but if you take a close look, 5.g4 may well be deserving of a ! in future philidor manuals. First, let's post the Shirov game which started all this nonsense

[Event "EU-chT (Men)"]
[Site "Plovdiv"]
[Date "2003.10.10"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Shirov,Alexei"]
[Black "Azmaiparashvili,Zurab"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "C41"]
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.g4 Nxg4 6.Rg1 Ngf6 7.Bc4 h6 8.Be3 c6 9.Qd3 Qc7 10.0-0-0 b5 11.Bxb5 cxb5 12.dxe5 dxe5 13.Nxb5 Qa5 14.Qc4 Rb8 15.a4 Qb4 16.Nxe5 Qxc4 17.Nxc4 a6 18.Nbd6+ Bxd6 19.Nxd6+ Kf8 20.f4 Bb7 21.e5 Ne8 22.Nxe8 Kxe8 23.Rxg7 Bc8 24.Rd6 Kf8 25.Rg1 Rg8 26.Rxg8+ Kxg8 27.Rxh6 Nf8 28.Rd6 Ra8 29.c4 Be6 30.b3 Kg7 31.Kb2 Kg6 32.h4 Kh5 33.Kc3 Ng6 34.b4 Nxh4 35.Bc1 Rc8 36.c5 a5 37.Rb6 Nf5 38.Ba3 Ne3 39.bxa5 Nd5+ 40.Kd3 Nxb6 41.axb6 Bd5 42.a5 Ra8 43.Kd4 Bc6 44.Bb4 Kg6 45.e6 f6 46.f5+ Kxf5 47.e7 Ke6 48.a6 Kxe7 49.b7 Rd8+ 50.Kc4 Kd7 51.Bc3 Rf8 52.Bxf6  1/2

Okay, so he only draws it, but there are improvements, albeit for both white and black. 6.Rg1 seems fine for white, as the astute reader may have noticed, the Bf8 for black doesn't leave home until move 18, and black evidently didn't fancy castling queenside. Also, it hasn't been essayed yet in the 7 games I can find in this opening, but 5...Nxg4 6.Bg5!? seems quite deserving of attention too.

Any thoughts people?

Regards,
Craig Grin

  

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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #33 - 07/20/04 at 09:02:15
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A well timed Rg8 does avoid this dangerous sac.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Nf3 (I am not convinced, that Black has reasonable play after
4.f4 or 4.Nge2 with the idea  5.f3, 6.Be3 and 7.Qd2) e5 5.Bc4 Be7 6.o-o h6 (I have tried this a
few times, but Black has only a slow attack on two files, while it is difficult to involve all pieces)
7.a4 c6 8.Qe2 Qc7 9.Ba2!
A1) 9...Nf8 10.Qc4!? Ne6 11.dxe5 dxe5 12.Nh4 Nh5 13.Nf5 Bf8 14.Be3 g6 15.Rad1 +-
Unzicker-Sämisch,1947.
A2) 9...Nf8 10.d5! g5 11.Qc4 Rh7 12.Be3 Bd7 13.b4 or Bg4 13.Nb5 +-.
B) 9...o-o 10.h3 with a comfortable edge.
Does Black really want to grovel like this?


« Last Edit: 07/21/04 at 05:17:52 by MNb »  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #32 - 07/18/04 at 08:15:07
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So let's see, how about 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 (does 4.f4 give White an advantage in this move order?) 4...Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 c6 7.a4 h6 (7...Nxe4 doesn't work here) 8.Re1 (actually 8.a5 looks like a good move here and on some subsequent moves) 8...Qc7 9.b3 g5? 10.Bb2 and Black is in a bad way as 10...Nf8 loses the way Topnotch said it would.  I don't suppose Black could make this playable by playing 9...Nf8!? 10.Bb2 Ng6 when White's advantage doesn't seem so large. 

I also looked at 9.h3 and placing the Bishop on e3.  Despite the weakening of the Kingside this looked good for White too (so says Fritz).  Actually against Black's plan of castling Queenside the bishop being on the g1-a7 diagonal often proves useful.  After writing the above I took out my copy of Kosten's 1992 book on the subject and found out he covers this stuff fairly well.

While researching these lines Fritz found another move which I can't find in Kosten's "Winning with the Philidor", namely after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 c6 7.a4, and now 7...Qa5!?.  One of Black's key ideas seems to be ...b5 which is threatened now because of the undefended rook on a1.  At first I thought 8.Be3 was best because I was under the impression Black answer 8.Bd2 with 8...exd4.  But it seems like Black is lost after 8.Bd2 exd4 9.Bxf7+!.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #31 - 07/17/04 at 23:05:24
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I'm pretty sure I already mentioned this h6 & g5 idea for black somewhere on this thread.

A key tactical idea for White in his quest to smash this line begins with putting the dark squared bishop on b2 with the idea of meeting a future g5, Nf8 with the sacrfice  Nxe5 and if white takes it by Qxe5 black has the devastating Nd5 threatening among other things Nc7 mate if White captures the bishop on b2 with his Queen.

Recognising the above tactic is the key to this line, and the main reason why it is not seen more for Black. Surprisingly many White players, including strong ones, are oblivious to the tactical potency of the plan outlined in the previous paragraph.

For those of you who find it hard to follow what I am talking about, since I didnt lay out the line for ya systematically move by move as I usually do, I apologise. I'm really sleepy at the moment and consequently too lazy to type out entire move sequences. In any case, just being aware of the hidden tactical device I outlined above should be enough for you to meet this line with confidence, in fact the same Nxe5 sac is sometimes possible when the White Bishop stands on e3, but for this to work tactically Black's rook usually has to be on h8.

I hope that my somewhat less than extensive post covers this topic adequately. If not, what can I say, It'll  have to do.

Well I'm off to beddy-bye.

Buenas Noches

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #30 - 07/17/04 at 22:10:42
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I was tempted to start another thread for this post but the question does concern the Philidor so I thought it should go here (I mean how many Philidor threads do we need?).  On one of his "Dirty Tricks" videos Nigel Davies gives the following, "1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 (because of 4.dxe5 I would prefer the Pirc move order to get to the Philidor) 4...Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 h6!? with the idea (in some order) of ...c6,...Qc7, ...g5 and probably ...0-0-0.  He mentions ...Nf8-g6-f4 as one natural plan for Black to try and attack the Kingside. 

Has anyone tried this out?  Is there any known refutation or at least a strong plan for White?  No doubt White can get at least a += against this, but there are moderate += situations and += positions that are closer to +.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #29 - 07/07/04 at 09:53:40
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I just wanted to put down a marker, in my somewhat undefined role as moderator, before things got out of hand.  Which, by definition, means that I don't think they have got out of hand yet ... I meant it in the way that a boxing referee asks for a "good, clean fight" before the match begins.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #28 - 07/07/04 at 09:47:13
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I don't myself think that I or Alumbrado were exaggerating -- you yourself felt a bit narked earlier, understandably in my view -- but I do agree that there's nothing wrong with robust debate and that one can be too solemn. Maybe opinions will always differ as to where robustness ends and unnecessary 'needle' begins! (This might be a fruitful subject for a 'General' thread, but of course I'd sympathise if it also elicited a yawn and a sharp "Just get on with the chess!"!)
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #27 - 07/07/04 at 09:12:47
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Come on, let us not exaggerate. It is just the heat of the debate. We should be glad that we do not agree, because that would be the end of chess. The goal of this site is to exchange opinions, analysis and new ideas, hoping we will learn something. A sharp debate is just a way to stimulate this.
Having reached this point, I must admit that AA has made some good points. Without changing my opinion on the Antosjin Variation, it is also clear that White must beware of some pitfalls. So I expect that AA will play some nice games with this line and I hope he will post them here. In the mean time I wish him good luck. Remember: the best lines are those condemned by theory and made playable again by some TN's.
  

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