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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K. (Read 37374 times)
AmateurDragoneer
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #11 - 07/03/04 at 12:40:26
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no one would state that the Dragon is better than the Scheveningen.


I would!!!  Grin
  
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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #10 - 07/03/04 at 10:21:17
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Let us drop the politeness issue. It is not that important and my feelings were not hurt. Apologies accepted.
Point 2 and I hope I can satisfy AA's unpatience:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7
compared to 5...g6 the bishop is more passive but the h2-h4-h5 plan makes no sense. So at first sight it is not clear what is better, to develop the bishop to e7 or to g7. That is not only logical; no one would state that the Dragon is better than the Scheveningen.
But the Philidor Be7 is considerably more passive than the Scheveningen indeed. Black has no counterplay along the c-file; counterplay along the e-file is not so strong. Here are some concrete lines:
A) I think the correctness of the exchange sac is a bit doubtful: 6.Bf4 o-o 7.Qd2 d5 8.Ndb5 c6 9.Nc7 d4 10.Nxa8 dxc3 11.Qxd8 Rxd8 12.bxc3 Nxe4 13.Bd3 Bd6 14.Be3
a)14...Nxc3 15.Bxa7 Na6 16.Bd4
b)14...Nc5 15.Rd1 Kf8 16.o-o b6 Boguslavsky-Sitnikov, 2002 and I can not find anything after 17.Bxh7.
White has good chances for an advantage here.
I must investigate 7...a6 and 7...c6 more closer yet, but improvements on 25th and 17th move are probably not sufficient when White has a wide choice.
B) If White wants solid play, there is 6.Be2 o-o 7.Be2 Re8 8.f4 Bf8 9.Bf3 c5 10.Nb3 Nc6 11.Re1 c4 (else White has a lasting plus) Pap-Dimitrijevic,2003, 12.Nd4 d5 (Black's only chance for counterplay after 5...Be7) 13.e5 at least += because of Qb6 14.Be3 Qxb2 15.Ndb5 wins.
After 7...c6 8.a4 Re8 9.Re1 Bf8 10.Qd3 d5 11.Bg5 White is also better.
C) More active is 6.Bc4 o-o 7.o-o c6 8.Re1 += as the well known pseudo sac Nxe4? does not work here because of 9.Rxe4 d5 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.Bd3 with a big plus.
Only when writing this, I noticed 7...Nxe4 so I have to take a closer look at this. My first impression is, that White gets a lead in development. My second impression is, that White can try 7.Qd3.
D) I am not convinced by 6.Nde2 because of o-o 7.g3 b5 8.Bg2 Bb7 unclear.
E) It is better to fianchetto with 6.g3 as Bg4 7.f3 Bd7 8.Be3 o-o 9.Qd2 is also slightly better for White, Timagin-Matjushkin,2001. White might in this case consider 3.g3 too if he is willing to transpose to Fianchetto Line of the Pirc.
My main objection against the Pirc is that White can adopt the strategy he likes the best. He can play solidly and try to stifle Black's play by preventing any counter action. He can also adopt sharper plans - usually by castling queenside. Black has problems to create counterchances. This opinion is confirmed by statistics. White scores 60% at least in most lines. Now I do not trust chess statistics too much, but from every point of view it is clear that Black faces an uphill struggle after 2...d6 and this is not considered OK these days.
Further posts will follow, including the Pirc move order.
  

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AmateurDragoneer
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #9 - 07/03/04 at 10:04:10
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Well, Mnb, I'm sorry if I've hurt your feelings, but for one thing I wrote specifically about the Be7 variation, and I asked why it was not more popular, not why the entire Philidor is considered inferior as that is your belief not mine.

I wanted to focus on the Be7 line since it's easy to  learn and play IMHO. 3...Nd7 is certainly playable, and playing 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 could be an important move order too, but all in good time.


Since the title of this topic says that black is okay after 2...d6 and not "Black is okay after 2...d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7," any line after 2...d6 is, by definition, on topic. If you wanted to focus specifically on the Be7 line, you should have said so IN THE TOPIC TITLE. Since we're trying to see if black is okay after 2...d6, I see nothing wrong with giving analysis on, for example, the ...g6 line in order to show that it is better for white and is not worth further investigation.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #8 - 07/02/04 at 20:14:47
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I don't want to be too solemn about this, but I think it's not just what one says in a post that's important, but how one says it. Sorry, but I think that "As for Mnb, where did I play ...g6? Please stay on focus" sounds decidedly haughty, quite irrespective of whether MNb's earlier remark could reasonably have been thought off-beam. Politeness costs nothing. It'd have been nice also to have had some acknowledgement of (even mild 'social' apology for, though I'm not one to be stuck-up about these things!) your overlooking, if you did, that I'd already set up a Philidor thread.

More importantly perhaps, why was my post of 1 July, asking "What of 6 Nde2!? then? And what's your recipe after 4 de Ne4 5 Qd5 Nc5 6 Bg5 Qd7 7 ed (7 ...Bd6 8 Nc3)?", not "remotely on topic"? I'm not a strong player, but these seem to me to be pertinent questions.

  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #7 - 07/02/04 at 10:57:55
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Well, Mnb, I'm sorry if I've hurt your feelings, but for one thing I wrote specifically about the Be7 variation, and I asked why it was not more popular, not why the entire Philidor is considered inferior as that is your belief not mine.

I wanted to focus on the Be7 line since it's easy to  learn and play IMHO. 3...Nd7 is certainly playable, and playing 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 could be an important move order too, but all in good time.

I spent a few hours on giving some lines on the critical line according to Top notch, and so far the only comment remotely on topic is that I left Qxd4 out.  Roll Eyes


Here's my previous two messages from the Petroff thread, for reference, should this thread take off for real. I'll give it a couple of days more to do so.


Quote:
As the Euro 2004 is practically over, let's resume the thread.

I saw Panda's message in that BIG king's gambit thread and got interested in why he thought the Philidor should be equal. So I took a brief look at the theory and practise, and there are a few very strong players that use it quite successfully, Dreev being one for example.

A line I've tried recently on the net with good result against several FMs is: 
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 exd4 5.Nxd4 Be7 - black is quite solid, and has two simple plans: playing ...a6 and ...c5 plus ...b5 if white avoids a4, or reverting back to the other plan of ...c6 and ...d5 or if white has played Bc4, ...Nxe4 with a fork trick. Just playing a bunker defence with Nbd7 and Re8 pressuring e4 also seems OK for black, as Nimzowitsch used to do in the 20s.

There are several things I like with the Philidor: 1, there are less 'unknown' gambits and such. 2, the position after 5...Be7 is easy to arrive at, the only major deviation is 3.Bc4. 3, white has so many 'obvious' set-ups that he may have a hard time choosing, especially since some are worse for him despite their 'natural' appeal.

Theory suggests that 6.Bf4 should give an edge, which might be true, though in practise black has at least three draws for every loss the last few years so it's hardly all that dangerous. 
Besides, from the handful FMs I played, none tried 6.Bf4. (One guy even logged off after losing and returned ten minutes later playing 4.dxe5 Nxe4 5.exd6 Bxd6 = )

How come this defence isn't more popular??


(1) 4 de Ne4 5 Qd5

5...Nc5 6.Bg5 Qd7 looks interesting, I doubt black is worse here anyway even if the queen might look out of place at the moment.

(If you don't like this you could also play 3...exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 I suppose.)
 
(2) 4 Nc3 ed 5 Qd4

5...a6!? might be the move here, gaining time with 6...Nc6 without allowing Bb5 or  6...c5 + ...b5 could also be worth considering, I'm not sure whether white should prevent this with 6.a4 or not. My hunch is that black is O.K. either way.
 
(3) 4 Nc3 ed 5 Nd4 Be7 6 Bc4

6...0-0 7.0-0 Nxe4 = 
Other white 7th moves would allow ...c6 & ...d5 or even ...b5. Play is reminiscent of some middlegames in the Alekhine/Scandinavian with 2...Nf6 or even the Pirc but without a fianchetto - which may be a perk as Bg7 often return to f8 to hold d6/c5 anyway
.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #6 - 07/02/04 at 09:33:43
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A.A. did, in fact, consider Qxd4 on move five in an earlier post. (He wants to play 3 ...Nf6 I believe.) In answer to a question from me he wrote: "(2) 4 Nc3 ed 5 Qd4: 5...a6!? might be the move here, gaining time with 6...Nc6 without allowing Bb5 or  6...c5 + ...b5 could also be worth considering, I'm not sure whether white should prevent this with 6.a4 or not. My hunch is that black is O.K. either way."

But I have to say, I agree with MNb about the politeness bit!



 
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #5 - 07/02/04 at 08:04:43
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You've overlooked an important line (and my personal favorite) in 4. Qxd4(!). 4...Nc6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. Bxc6 Bxc6 7. Nc3 Nf6 8. Bg5 Be7 9. O-O-O is the line I've been playing for about a year or so and it has served me well and can also arise via a Ruy Lopez move order and is often classified as a Ruy Lopez: Old Steinitz Defense instead of a Philidor. As far as 4th move alternatives, the only significant non-transpositional one is 4...Bd7 (or, I suppose, 4...a6?!) after which all white needs to do is develop the Bc1 on e3, f4, or g5 so that 5...Nc6 can be met by 6. Qd2 followed by O-O-O.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #4 - 07/02/04 at 05:09:12
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Not nice of you, AA. I asked for a few days. You asked for a complete explanation why the Philidor is inferior and my last post was just the first step.
But we seem to agree that 4...g6 is good for White; this is important, as it is one of the main systems Black can choose in the Philidor.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #3 - 07/01/04 at 09:27:26
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Mr Ayton, if you delete your post I think the thread will disappear as long as no one else has replied.

As for Mnb, where did I play ...g6? Please stay on focus.
  
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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #2 - 07/01/04 at 08:48:25
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Can you guys wait a few days? Until then I refer to the post of TopNotch - I seem to agree with him this time.
First point: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.f3 o-o 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.o-o-o is a line known from the Pirc Defense: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 o-o 6.o-o-o Nc6 7.f3 e5 8.Nge2 exd4 9.o-o-o and this is good for White. Black only has the slow plan a6, Ne5, b5, c5 while White follows the well known plan of the Jugoslav Attack - main ideas: h2-h4-h5, Bh6, g4/Nf5.
This is hard to handle for Black, who should be glad with a narrow escape to a draw.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #1 - 07/01/04 at 08:29:02
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Oh dear, now we have the Philidor mentioned in no fewer than THREE threads! Seems like A.A. didn't notice I'd already started a new thread. What should I do with this? -- should I, can I, delete it?

Interesting comments on 6 Bf4, A.A. What of 6 Nde2!? then? And what's your recipe after 4 de Ne4 5 Qd5 Nc5 6 Bg5 Qd7 7 ed (7 ...Bd6 8 Nc3)?
  
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
07/01/04 at 07:25:25
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Since some people wanted a Philidor thread on it's own, I'll use this one. So it's up to Mnb and company to prove me wrong.

Please keep this thread serious and to the point! AKA 1, no evaluations without backing it up with moves. 2, no pointless ramblings full of smilies signifying nothing.




Leko,P (2722) - Svidler,P (2747) [C41]
Amber Rapid Monte Carlo MNC (9), 30.03.2004

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4

[ 3...Nf6 is often considered more exact as it allows white more options of going wrong. 4.dxe5 is just an invitation to an early draw, for example: 4...Nxe4 5.Qd5 Nc5 6.Bg5 Qd7 7.Nc3 c6 8.Qd2 dxe5 9.Nxe5 Qxd2+ 10.Bxd2 Nbd7 11.Nxd7 Bxd7 12.0-0-0 0-0-0 13.Bc4 Be6 14.Bxe6+ Nxe6 15.Be3 Bc5 ½-½ Cabrera,A-Vescovi,G/I American Continental, Cali COL 2001 (15)]

[b]4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Bf4 0-0 7.Qd2 d5!? [/b] the latest trend, though I'm personally still sceptical, still a few weeks of analysis might convince me.

[ Personally, I find the following pawn attacks very appealing:

[u]7...a6!?[/u] 8.0-0-0 b5 9.f3 c5 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 Nc6 12.g4 ( 12.Bxd6 Qa5!) 12...b4 13.Nd5 Nxd5 14.Qxd5 Bg5= 15.Bxg5 Qxg5+ 16.Qd2 Qxd2+ 17.Rxd2 Nd4 18.c3 bxc3 19.bxc3 Nb5 20.Bxb5 axb5 21.Kb1 Rfd8 22.Rhd1 Ra6 23.Rd5 Rc6 24.g5 f6 25.g6 Luther,T-Sedlak,N/Reykjavik ISL 2004 (1-0 41) 25...hxg6= (instead of Kf8??);

[u]7...c6!?[/u] 8.0-0-0 b5 9.f3 b4 10.Nb1! c5 White can win Pd6 but I still like black here, here's a recent game: 11.Nb5 Be6 12.Bxd6 Ne8 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 14.Nd6 Nc6 15.Nxe8 Rfxe8 16.Qd6 Qb7! 17.Nd2 Al Modiahki,M-Belkhodja,S/ch-Arab, Casablanca MAR 2002 (1-0 38) ( 17.Qxc5 Rac8) 17...Red8 18.Qxc5 Rac8 with a lot of play for black, though Fritz says it 0.00 after 19.Nc4.]


[b]8.e5[/b] That Svidler is prepared to play the exchange sacrifice and Leko avoids it, could be an indication that the exchange sac below is at least equal.

8.exd5 Nxd5 9.Nxd5 Qxd5 10.Nb5 Qe4+ ( 10...Re8! is probably an improvement, e.g 11.Kd1 Qh5+ 12.Be2 Qg6! 13.Nxc7 Rd8 14.Bd3 Bf5 with good play for black.) 11.Be2 Na6 12.0-0 += Van den Doel,E-Kovacevic,A/EuTCh, Leon ESP 2001 (1-0 54)]


[ 8.Ndb5 c6!?

( 8...Bb4 9.0-0-0 ( 9.Nxc7!? Nxe4 10.Qxd5) 9...Ba5 10.exd5 a6 11.Nd4 Bxc3 12.Qxc3 Nxd5 13.Qg3 Nxf4 14.Qxf4 Qd5 15.Nb3 += Istratescu,A-Gelashvili,T/Patras 2001 (1-0 50);

9.Nc7 d4 10.Ne2

( 10.0-0-0 Nh5 11.Be5 Bg5 12.f4 Nxf4!?
( 12...dxc3 13.Qxd8 cxb2+ 14.Kb1 Bxd8 15.Nxa8 Bg4 16.Rd3 Na6 17.h3 +/- Pavasovic,D-Nisipeanu,L/90th LSK Metalka Trgovina, Ljubljana SL 2002 (½-½ 23))

13.Bxf4 Qxc7 14.Bxc7 Bxd2+ 15.Kxd2 dxc3+ 16.Kxc3 should favour white's bishop pair but Pe4 is weak, so it's probably just an academic advantage.;

10...g5 11.Be5 Nbd7 12.Bxf6 Nxf6 13.Qxg5+ Kh8 14.Nxa8 Re8 15.f3? White must have something better than this, which is why I'm not yet convinced about black's sacrifice. 15...Nxe4 16.Qe5+ Kg8 17.Qxd4 Bc5 18.Qxe4 Rxe4 19.fxe4 Be3 20.Rd1 Bf2+ 21.Kxf2 Qxd1 22.c3 Qd2  -/+ since Na8 won't get any further than c7 black was much better in Brodsky,M-Nisipeanu,L Varsity Match, London ENG 2001 (0-1 40); ]


8...Nh5 9.Nf3 Nxf4 10.Qxf4 c6 11.Bd3 Nd7 [ 11...f6!?] 12.0-0 Nc5 13.Bf5 g5 14.Qg4 h5 15.Qh3 g4 16.Qxh5 Bxf5 17.Qxf5 gxf3 18.Qg4+ Kh7 and white has a draw at best. (½-½ in 36)

  
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