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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K. (Read 28859 times)
kylemeister
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #56 - 11/15/05 at 02:26:54
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Somehow I don't think one should play the From Gambit and then allow White to move his pawn from d2 to f2.  Seems to detract from the whole raison d'etre ...
  
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Tater_Salad
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #55 - 11/15/05 at 02:03:07
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you can play that gambit starting out with 1.d4 e5 also. there's a decent ammount of analysis on it in the englund gambit book by smith and hall. that book is a pretty decent one, by the way, because its really more just a translation of buckers analysis than anything else.
  
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basqueknight
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #54 - 11/15/05 at 01:42:35
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Well i couldnt very well let this thread go on for ever with out looking at a bit of the strange! I have recently begun to look at black gambits as a hobby and of course as a potential weapon!

Well i was going through all of my Gambit Cartel Files and found a column called "Not exactly opera box"

Mr.McGrew as always did a wonderful job on the article but the positions that arose were quite interesting.

The gambit in question which i have delayed long enough starts like so.

1. e4 e5
2. nf3 d6
3.d4 Bg4?!

Im sure the thought of most as well as that of McGrews is that now you are extremely happy with the white pieces. By chance you have fallen into one of the most famous games of chess ever played in which paul morphy okayed blindfold a game at the opera. But after morphys...

4.de Nd7!? This is the begining of the gambit! Attributed to blackburne. The idea is to develop the pieces, apply pressure on the e4 pawn. The king side attacks that may turn up are very fun to go over. Often times black can win back the pawn with a better position to show for the opening.

The positions that arise from the opening are not very philidor like. So if you are hoping for a quiter open game i would quite reading now. How ever if as a philidor player you perhaps play some of the side lines then this might be worth taking a look at. And if you are young and impressionable i suggest you go to chess cafe and download the Gambit Cartel in PDF format from the archives.

I would be interested in what you philidor players think of it. I cant really call my self one yet as i do not play it at every oppurtunity but i have been bringing it out along with my b6 and Najdorf. So perhaps there is hope for me yet!

Peace to you all

Basqueknight
  
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Woodtree
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #53 - 11/10/05 at 10:06:45
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Kf3 = Nf3 of course

Look at games from the famous Dutch IM Manuel Bosboom (aka Woodtree on ICC)
  
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Woodtree
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #52 - 11/10/05 at 10:05:27
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1.e4,e52.Kf3,d6 3.d4, Qe7! is the way to play the Philidor
  
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Desi Bouterse
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #51 - 11/10/05 at 10:01:39
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Who the **** is Mark Nieuweboer, never heard of that guy...
Maybe it's a guy who is only palying openings, not chess!!
  
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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #50 - 10/30/05 at 15:30:18
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White has a nice advantage after 5.Nc3 (or 5.o-o) Be7 6.dxe5 dxe5 7.Ng5 Bxg5 (Nh6? 8.Ne6!) 8.Qh5 g6 9.Qxg5 Qxg5 10.Bxg5 because of the pair of bishops.
  

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Bernardo DeLuca
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4,Nd7 4.Bc4,c6  Is Black OK?
Reply #49 - 10/30/05 at 04:24:52
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Hi everyone, can someone please help me out with the line  1.e4,e5  2.Nf3,d6  3.d4,Nd7  4.Bc4,c6      I've been trying to play the d6 and e5 pawn structure as Black against practically anything but this particular line seems to have a bit too much venom in it and even the most patient player of the black pieces can lose hair trying to defend this position.   Any analysis of the various attacking ideas for White and Black's best defenses would be greatly appreciated.   Please don't dismiss it as simply a bad opening for Black without giving some good analysis as to why a typical club player should fear playing it against another club player.  Thanks!!
  
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lost highway
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #48 - 10/06/05 at 19:07:16
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Just to have a break, what is the last refutation of :
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5?!
I mean, a refutation that everybody does agree with ...

There are too many "gods" lurking for anything in this forum to be agreed upon.  My own refutation is 4.Nc3.  If 4...fe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Nxe5 and it will be over soon.

- Lost Highway
  
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TopNotch
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #47 - 09/23/05 at 15:43:29
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Quote:
Just to have a break, what is the last refutation of :
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5?!
I mean, a refutation that everybody does agree with ...


Scroll back through the thread and you will find it.

Toppy Grin
  

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Bubu13
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #46 - 09/23/05 at 15:28:46
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Just to have a break, what is the last refutation of :
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5?!
I mean, a refutation that everybody does agree with ...
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #45 - 09/22/05 at 21:27:17
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In order for this thread to look right, the player of the Black pieces needs to put on a special pair of glasses tinted a special shade of pink.  Know what I mean?
  
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Reply #44 - 09/22/05 at 15:41:54
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Hi everybody!

What do you think about..?:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4

[a) 3...Nf6 4.dxe5 Nxe4 5.Qd5 Nc5 6.Bg5

A) 6...Qd7 7.exd6 Bxd6 8.Nc3 0-0 9.0-0-0 Nc6 10.Nb5! N +/- A1) 10...Nb4 11.Qc4; A2) 10...Ne7 11.Qc4; A3) 10...h6 11.Be3; A4) 10...Be7 11.Qxd7 Bxd7 12.Nxc7 Bxg5+ (12...Rac8 13.Bf4!?±) 13.Nxg5 Rac8 14.Rd5 (14.Nd5; 14.Nb5!?) 14...b6 15.Na6±; A5) 10...Qg4 11.Nxd6 cxd6 12.Be3! ^^ ><d6 12...Be6?! 13.Qxd6 Ne4 14.Qa3 Rfd8 15.Bd3 Nf6 16.Bg5! Nb4?! 17.h3!+- A5a) 17...Nxd3+ 18.Rxd3 Rxd3 19.Qxd3 Qa4 (19...Qxg2 20.Rg1 /\ Bf6+-) 20.Bxf6 (20.a3+-) 20...Qf4+ (20...Qxa2 21.Ng5! Qa1+ 22.Kd2 Qa5+ 23.b4!? Qxb4+ 24.Bc3 Qf4+ 25.Qe3+-) 21.Kb1+-; A5b) 17...Qxg2?! 18.Rhg1 Qxf2 19.Bxf6 Qe3+ 20.Kb1 Bxa2+ 21.Ka1 Qb6 22.Rxg7+ Kf8 23.Rxh7 1-0 Tiviakov,S-Barbero,G/Imperia 1993/Inf 59/[Tiviakov,S];

B) 6...Be7 7.exd6 Qxd6 8.Nc3
B1) 8...Qxd5 9.Nxd5 Bd6 10.0-0-0 Nc6 11.Bb5 Bd7 12.Rhe1+ Ne6 13.c4 Rc8 14.Bf4 a6 15.Bxd6 cxd6 16.Bxc6 Bxc6 17.Kb1 with small edge  Nijboer,F-Cifuentes Parada,R/Amsterdam/1994/0|1/65/;
B2) 8...Ne6 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.0-0-0 Nc6 11.Qe4 Qb4 12.Bc4 0-0 13.Nd5 Qc5 14.Qh4! Ionov,S-Yandemirov,V/Elista/1994/1|0/19/;

B3) 8...c6 9.Qxd6 Bxd6 10.0-0-0 Bc7 11.Bc4 h6
(11...Ne6 12.Bxe6! Bxe6 13.Nd4 h6 14.Bh4 Na6 15.Nxe6 fxe6 16.Ne4 0-0 17.f3 Rf7 18.a3 Bf4+ 19.Kb1 Nc7 20.g3 Be3 21.f4 Nd5 22.c4 Bxf4 23.cxd5 exd5 24.Nf6+ gxf6 25.gxf4 Kh7 26.f5 Re8 27.Rde1 Re5 28.Rhf1 Kg7 29.Bg3 Ree7 30.Bd6 Rd7 1-0 Korneev,O-Rivera,A/Neiva COL 2005) 12.Rhe1+ Ne6 13.Bh4 0-0 14.Bg3 Bf4+ 15.Bxf4 Nxf4 16.Re7 b5 17.Rxf7 Ne6 18.Rxf8+ Kxf8 19.Bxe6 Bxe6 20.Rd8+ Ke7 21.Rh8 Bd7 22.Ne5 Be8 23.f4 Na6 24.Rg8 g6 25.Rh8 h5 26.Ne4 Nb4 27.a3 Nd5 28.g3 a5 29.Rh7+ Ke6 30.Nf3 Ne3 31.Nfg5+ Kd5 32.Re7 Nf1 33.Re5+ Kd4 34.Nd6 Nxh2 35.Ne6# 1-0 Nevednichy,V-Kristovic,M/Zadar CRO 2004;
B4) 8...h6 9.Be3 c6 10.Qxd6 Bxd6 11.0-0-0 Be7 12.Bc4 Nba6 (12...Be6 13.Bxc5 Bxc4 14.Bxe7 Kxe7 15.Nd4 Be6 16.Rhe1 Re8 17.Ne4 Kf8 18.Nd6 Re7 19.N6f5 Re8 20.Nxe6+ fxe6 21.Nd4 Kf7 22.Rd3 Nd7 23.Nxc6 bxc6 24.Rxd7+ Re7 25.Rd6 Rc8 26.Kd2 1-0 Nedev,T-Trevelyan,J/Plovdiv BUL 2003) 13.Rhe1 Be6 14.Ne5 0-0 15.Bxe6 Nxe6 16.f4!Shmit,A-Peterson,A/URS/1972/0,5/30/;
B5) 8...Qe6+ 9.Be3 c6 10.Qd4 0-0 11.Bc4 Qg4 12.0-0-0 b5 13.Qe5! Qxc4 14.Qxe7 Nb7 15.Ng5 Qh4 16.Rd4 Qh5 17.Rhd1 Nd7 18.Rxd7 Bxd7 19.Qxd7 b4 20.g4 Qxh2 21.Nce4 Na5 22.Qf5 Nc4 23.Bc5+- Rad8 24.Qxf7+! Kh8 25.Bxf8 1:0 Rublevsky - Abramovic, Budva 1996 1-0 Rublevsky,S-Abramovic,B/JUG-chT Budva 1996/[Chekhov];

b) 3...Nd7 4.Bc4 c6 5.dxe5 dxe5 6.0-0 Be7 7.Ng5 Bxg5 8.Qh5 Qe7 9.Qxg5! Qxg5 10.Bxg5 b5 11.Be2 Ngf6 12.f3 Nc5
(12...Nb6 13.Nd2 Be6 14.Rfc1 Nfd7 15.c4 b4 16.a3 bxa3 17.Rxa3 f6 18.Be3 Ke7 19.Rca1 Nc8 20.Bxa7 Rxa7 21.Rxa7 Nxa7 22.Rxa7 Rb8 23.b3 Kd6 24.Kf2 g5 25.Bd1 h5 26.Be2 Nc5 27.Ke3 Bd7 28.Ra3 Ne6 29.Bd1 h4 30.Nb1 Nd4 31.Nc3 g4 32.f4 g3 33.hxg3 Bg4 34.fxe5+ fxe5 35.c5+ Ke7 36.Ra7+ Kf6 37.Bxg4 Rxb3 38.Kd2 Rb2+ 39.Ke1 Nc2+ 40.Ke2 Nb4+ 41.Kf1 hxg3 42.Rb7 Rf2+ 43.Kg1 Nd3 44.Ne2 Ne1 45.Rb3 Rxg2+ 46.Kf1 Kg5 47.Bh3 1-0 Tiviakov,S-Murshed,N/Dhaka BAN 2003)
13.Be3 Ne6 14.a4 b4 15.Rd1 Ke7 16.Nd2 c5 17.Bc4 Nd7 18.c3 Nc7 19.Nb3 bxc3 20.bxc3 Ba6 21.Rxd7+ Kxd7 22.Nxc5+ Kc6 23.Nxa6 Nxa6 24.Bxa6 Rhd8 25.Bc4 Rab8 26.Bd5+ Kc7 27.Bxa7 Rb2 28.a5 Rd6 29.Bb6+ Kc8 30.a6 1:0 Barria - Perez, Najdorf festival 1998 1-0 Barria,D-Perez,R/Buenos Aires 1998]

4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.f3 Be7

[5...d5 6.e5 Nfd7 7.f4 Nb6 8.a4 c5 9.Nf3 Nc6 10.Nc3 d4 11.Ne4 Bf5 12.Ng3 Be6 13.a5 Nd5 14.f5 Bc8 15.Bc4 Be7 16.0-0 Ne3 17.Bxe3 dxe3 18.Qe1 Nd4 19.Rd1 Qc7 20.Qxe3 Nxf5 21.Nxf5 Bxf5 22.Bxf7+ Kxf7 23.Ng5+ Bxg5 24.Rxf5+ Kg8 25.Qxg5 Re8 26.e6 g6 27.Rf7 1-0 Movsesian,S-Fridman,D/playchess INT 2005]

6.c4 0-0 7.Nc3 c6 8.Be3 Re8 9.Qd2 d5 10.cxd5 cxd5 11.Bb5! Bd7 12.e5 Bxb5 13.Ndxb5 a6 14.Nd4 Nfd7 15.f4 Nb6 16.b3! N8d7 17.0-0 Rc8 18.Nf5 Bb4 19.Bd4 Nc5 20.Qe3 Rc6 21.Rac1 Qc8 22.Nxg7 Kxg7 23.f5 h6 24.e6+ Kh7 25.Qe5 Rg8 26.exf7 Rg5 27.Qe7 1:0 Anand - Nisipeanu, Bundesliga 2004-05

I don't believe in Philidor's defence... sorry.

Bye all!

Hasta luego Fernando!!

  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
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Fernando Semprun
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #41 - 03/03/05 at 07:56:03
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I believe the Philidor is explained very well in Kosten's book. I even had a chat about the opening with him in 1993, at the strong Oviedo Open.

I played it in 1993 and 1994, after a horrible loss with the Schveningen that was published in the Spanish Newspaper ABC (sacrifices in f5 and d5) and (here is one with no moves just general feeling... 8)) while the results were good (against players like Westerinen, Markzon, Campora) (and the move order 1.e4 d6 can be employed to avoid the KG) the resulting positions are somewhat passive and one has to work hard to win (very hard). If white tries nothing and stays solid it is very difficult for black to do anything (I am talking the Antoshin, which I believe is the only playable one)

I found that nobody bothered with 6.Bf4. Strong players normally went for the fianchetto, 4.Qd4 or just 6.Be2.

It is hard to play with black so passively, at least for me. As a surprise weapon or as a second defence in a long tournament, fully worth it. (I saw Tamasz Georgadze win a tournament with this defence against FIDE master Montecatine. He just wasnot expecting the philidor and did not know what to do!)

Regards


Fernando Semprun
  

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TalJechin
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #40 - 01/30/05 at 06:13:55
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MNb, while waiting for AA, you can read what Short himself thinks here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?view=CHESSCONTENT&grid=P8&RangeStartV...
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #39 - 01/25/05 at 11:28:07
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Quote:
I'm afraid that the much maligned Philidor defence while perhaps not as bad as theory suggests, is certainly not a comfortable opening for Black.


My thinking exactly.  I suspect that "Black is O.K.," but his game is difficult and dreary.
  

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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #38 - 01/24/05 at 20:49:13
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I just wonder, what comment AA has on Short-Morozevitsj, Wijk aan Zee 2005?
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #37 - 11/08/04 at 09:29:23
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I looked at a couple of lines where white omits Rg1 and sacs the g-pawn.  It is dangerous but if black can defend against immediate threats then positionally he's doing quite well.  The h-file remains closed and black now has the f6 square for his bishop.

Blacks counterplay is slower than in many sicilians since he's most relying on pawn play than active pieces, but a plan involving Re8/Bf8 may shore up the kingside long enough for black to get the pawns rolling.  I think at least 9.Nf5 is as logical as 9.f3 because in the game you gave (Luther - Sedlak) white played Nf5 on the next move and it is debatable whether or not f3 is particularly useful.  I suppose Luther hadn't counted on black offering the d6 pawn.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #36 - 11/04/04 at 07:25:25
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I haven't seen much of the chess board since last time, but since you ask I'll try to give a quick opinion:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Bf4 0-0 7.Qd2 a6 8.0-0-0 b5 9.Nf5!?N Bxf5 10.exf5

It's possible that I'm too optimistic, but I'm not sure that white's pawn storm is considerably more dangerous than black's a5, a4 and b3, even if it must be respected of course.
White has no open files, so I think black should be OK as he still has time to create counter play while white's pieces join the kingside pawns.

People versed in the Najdorf would probably know better than I how to conduct black's defence. Some ideas seem obvious, a well timed b5-b4, a5-a4 and b3 is of course one major device for counter play.
Another is soaking up the attack najdorf style, with Nf6-d7-e5/c5/f8 and being able to meet f5-f6 with Bf8. So ...Re8 should be a useful move I think. Even if the c-file isn't half open as in the Najdorf, black seems able to put the other najdorf characteristics to good use.

Here's a couple of sample variations with some typical(?) ideas. Sorry that I don't have much time to delve into it deeper at the moment, I hope this will be useful to set you off analysing though.

A) 10...b4 11.Nd5 Nxd5 12.Qxd5 Nd7 ( 12...c6 13.Qd2 d5 14.g4‚ 'with a strong attack for white, blacks play on the queenside is too slow at the moment.') 13.h4!? (stopping ...Bg5) 13...a5 ( Fritz prefers 13...Bxh4? by the way.) 14.g4 a4 15.g5 b3 ( 15...c6?! (to be able to block with ...f6) 16.Qxc6 b3 17.Bc4! +/-) 16.f6 bxa2 17.Qxa2 gxf6 is probably slightly better for white, though OTB black should probably have some chances too.

B) 10...Nbd7 11.Rg1 [ I doubt that Rg1 is necessary though, since 11.g4 Nxg4? 12.Rg1 looks pretty dangerous to me.]

11...Re8 [ 11...Ne5 12.Be2 Nc4 13.Bxc4 bxc4 14.g4 'and again whites attack is strong and quick.'] 12.g4 b4! 13.Nd5 Nxd5 14.Qxd5 Bg5! with even chances?

  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #35 - 11/03/04 at 14:19:01
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Personally I think the Antoshin is a very reasonable opening for black below a certain level.  It's pretty solid and black can often generate good play with his queenside pawns.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 ed 4.Qd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 followed by 0-0 and Nc6 is perhaps the best way to meet 4.Qd4 - I don't see why 4...a6 is necessary at all.

Regarding the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 ed 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Bf4 0-0 7.Qd2 a6!? 8.0-0-0 b5

Someone at my club has now suggested 9.Nf5!? immediately.  9...Bf5 10.ef and now white intends to steamroller black with Rg1/g4/g5/f6 etc. 

A couple of sample lines.  10...b4 11.Nd5 Nd5 12.Qd5 c6 13.Qd2 d5 14.g4 with a strong attack for white, blacks play on the queenside is too slow at the moment.

10...Nbd7 11.Rg1 Ne5 (to prevent g4) 12.Be2 Nc4 13.Bc4 bc 14.g4 and again whites attack is strong and quick.

A.A I look forward to hearing your opinions about this line, personally I feel it may well be superior to 9.f3 as it is more direct.  It certainly looks dangerous from my point of view.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #34 - 07/28/04 at 16:05:35
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At the risk of being chastised for yet more silly moves by TopNotch ( Wink), I wish to bring peoples attention to a TN found by Shirov in 2003, which won the best novelty award in, I think, informator's top 10 novelties.

The line runs 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.g4!? (I have used the pirc move order, but the philidor move order is just as viable. I'm sure people are currently asking who I think I am to pollute this thread with such garbage, but if you take a close look, 5.g4 may well be deserving of a ! in future philidor manuals. First, let's post the Shirov game which started all this nonsense

[Event "EU-chT (Men)"]
[Site "Plovdiv"]
[Date "2003.10.10"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Shirov,Alexei"]
[Black "Azmaiparashvili,Zurab"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "C41"]
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.g4 Nxg4 6.Rg1 Ngf6 7.Bc4 h6 8.Be3 c6 9.Qd3 Qc7 10.0-0-0 b5 11.Bxb5 cxb5 12.dxe5 dxe5 13.Nxb5 Qa5 14.Qc4 Rb8 15.a4 Qb4 16.Nxe5 Qxc4 17.Nxc4 a6 18.Nbd6+ Bxd6 19.Nxd6+ Kf8 20.f4 Bb7 21.e5 Ne8 22.Nxe8 Kxe8 23.Rxg7 Bc8 24.Rd6 Kf8 25.Rg1 Rg8 26.Rxg8+ Kxg8 27.Rxh6 Nf8 28.Rd6 Ra8 29.c4 Be6 30.b3 Kg7 31.Kb2 Kg6 32.h4 Kh5 33.Kc3 Ng6 34.b4 Nxh4 35.Bc1 Rc8 36.c5 a5 37.Rb6 Nf5 38.Ba3 Ne3 39.bxa5 Nd5+ 40.Kd3 Nxb6 41.axb6 Bd5 42.a5 Ra8 43.Kd4 Bc6 44.Bb4 Kg6 45.e6 f6 46.f5+ Kxf5 47.e7 Ke6 48.a6 Kxe7 49.b7 Rd8+ 50.Kc4 Kd7 51.Bc3 Rf8 52.Bxf6  1/2

Okay, so he only draws it, but there are improvements, albeit for both white and black. 6.Rg1 seems fine for white, as the astute reader may have noticed, the Bf8 for black doesn't leave home until move 18, and black evidently didn't fancy castling queenside. Also, it hasn't been essayed yet in the 7 games I can find in this opening, but 5...Nxg4 6.Bg5!? seems quite deserving of attention too.

Any thoughts people?

Regards,
Craig Grin

  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #33 - 07/20/04 at 09:02:15
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A well timed Rg8 does avoid this dangerous sac.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Nf3 (I am not convinced, that Black has reasonable play after
4.f4 or 4.Nge2 with the idea  5.f3, 6.Be3 and 7.Qd2) e5 5.Bc4 Be7 6.o-o h6 (I have tried this a
few times, but Black has only a slow attack on two files, while it is difficult to involve all pieces)
7.a4 c6 8.Qe2 Qc7 9.Ba2!
A1) 9...Nf8 10.Qc4!? Ne6 11.dxe5 dxe5 12.Nh4 Nh5 13.Nf5 Bf8 14.Be3 g6 15.Rad1 +-
Unzicker-Sämisch,1947.
A2) 9...Nf8 10.d5! g5 11.Qc4 Rh7 12.Be3 Bd7 13.b4 or Bg4 13.Nb5 +-.
B) 9...o-o 10.h3 with a comfortable edge.
Does Black really want to grovel like this?


« Last Edit: 07/21/04 at 05:17:52 by MNb »  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #32 - 07/18/04 at 08:15:07
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So let's see, how about 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 (does 4.f4 give White an advantage in this move order?) 4...Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 c6 7.a4 h6 (7...Nxe4 doesn't work here) 8.Re1 (actually 8.a5 looks like a good move here and on some subsequent moves) 8...Qc7 9.b3 g5? 10.Bb2 and Black is in a bad way as 10...Nf8 loses the way Topnotch said it would.  I don't suppose Black could make this playable by playing 9...Nf8!? 10.Bb2 Ng6 when White's advantage doesn't seem so large. 

I also looked at 9.h3 and placing the Bishop on e3.  Despite the weakening of the Kingside this looked good for White too (so says Fritz).  Actually against Black's plan of castling Queenside the bishop being on the g1-a7 diagonal often proves useful.  After writing the above I took out my copy of Kosten's 1992 book on the subject and found out he covers this stuff fairly well.

While researching these lines Fritz found another move which I can't find in Kosten's "Winning with the Philidor", namely after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 c6 7.a4, and now 7...Qa5!?.  One of Black's key ideas seems to be ...b5 which is threatened now because of the undefended rook on a1.  At first I thought 8.Be3 was best because I was under the impression Black answer 8.Bd2 with 8...exd4.  But it seems like Black is lost after 8.Bd2 exd4 9.Bxf7+!.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #31 - 07/17/04 at 23:05:24
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I'm pretty sure I already mentioned this h6 & g5 idea for black somewhere on this thread.

A key tactical idea for White in his quest to smash this line begins with putting the dark squared bishop on b2 with the idea of meeting a future g5, Nf8 with the sacrfice  Nxe5 and if white takes it by Qxe5 black has the devastating Nd5 threatening among other things Nc7 mate if White captures the bishop on b2 with his Queen.

Recognising the above tactic is the key to this line, and the main reason why it is not seen more for Black. Surprisingly many White players, including strong ones, are oblivious to the tactical potency of the plan outlined in the previous paragraph.

For those of you who find it hard to follow what I am talking about, since I didnt lay out the line for ya systematically move by move as I usually do, I apologise. I'm really sleepy at the moment and consequently too lazy to type out entire move sequences. In any case, just being aware of the hidden tactical device I outlined above should be enough for you to meet this line with confidence, in fact the same Nxe5 sac is sometimes possible when the White Bishop stands on e3, but for this to work tactically Black's rook usually has to be on h8.

I hope that my somewhat less than extensive post covers this topic adequately. If not, what can I say, It'll  have to do.

Well I'm off to beddy-bye.

Buenas Noches

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #30 - 07/17/04 at 22:10:42
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I was tempted to start another thread for this post but the question does concern the Philidor so I thought it should go here (I mean how many Philidor threads do we need?).  On one of his "Dirty Tricks" videos Nigel Davies gives the following, "1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 (because of 4.dxe5 I would prefer the Pirc move order to get to the Philidor) 4...Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 h6!? with the idea (in some order) of ...c6,...Qc7, ...g5 and probably ...0-0-0.  He mentions ...Nf8-g6-f4 as one natural plan for Black to try and attack the Kingside. 

Has anyone tried this out?  Is there any known refutation or at least a strong plan for White?  No doubt White can get at least a += against this, but there are moderate += situations and += positions that are closer to +.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #29 - 07/07/04 at 09:53:40
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I just wanted to put down a marker, in my somewhat undefined role as moderator, before things got out of hand.  Which, by definition, means that I don't think they have got out of hand yet ... I meant it in the way that a boxing referee asks for a "good, clean fight" before the match begins.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #28 - 07/07/04 at 09:47:13
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I don't myself think that I or Alumbrado were exaggerating -- you yourself felt a bit narked earlier, understandably in my view -- but I do agree that there's nothing wrong with robust debate and that one can be too solemn. Maybe opinions will always differ as to where robustness ends and unnecessary 'needle' begins! (This might be a fruitful subject for a 'General' thread, but of course I'd sympathise if it also elicited a yawn and a sharp "Just get on with the chess!"!)
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #27 - 07/07/04 at 09:12:47
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Come on, let us not exaggerate. It is just the heat of the debate. We should be glad that we do not agree, because that would be the end of chess. The goal of this site is to exchange opinions, analysis and new ideas, hoping we will learn something. A sharp debate is just a way to stimulate this.
Having reached this point, I must admit that AA has made some good points. Without changing my opinion on the Antosjin Variation, it is also clear that White must beware of some pitfalls. So I expect that AA will play some nice games with this line and I hope he will post them here. In the mean time I wish him good luck. Remember: the best lines are those condemned by theory and made playable again by some TN's.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #26 - 07/06/04 at 13:11:46
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Yes, Alumbrado, I very much agree! -- see my post of 2/7. I hope I wasn't guilty myself, and I apologise if I was. Politeness is important. We've all occasionally felt 'needled' and know that it's hard sometiimes not to needle back, but it's best avoided!

  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #25 - 07/06/04 at 12:59:56
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To quote myself again:

Quote:
If you don't like this you could also play 3...exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 


I still doubt that White has an advantage after 3...Nf6 4.dxe5, but it might offer White better chances than 4.Nc3, though I was more concerned about the likelyhood of an early draw, so I've gone over to 3...exd4 as this is just a simpler and more certain route to the main position.

Another time saver is meeting 3.Bc4 with Be7! 4.Nc3 Nf6 which usually transposes with 5.d4 exd4.

For further questions, just check your database, particularly the last few years GM praxis.

Good luck with the Antoshin everybody!

//A.A.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #24 - 07/06/04 at 12:43:16
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Hmm ... there is some festering 'needle' creeping into some of these posts.  I hope we are all going to carry on playing nicely?  8)
« Last Edit: 07/07/04 at 01:58:26 by alumbrado »  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #23 - 07/06/04 at 12:02:30
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Michael Ayton did indeed 'merely' quote A.A. in respect of 4 Qxd4; but he also asked A.A. what his recipe was for Black in the 4 de line after 4 ...Ne4 5 Qd5 Nc5 6 Bg5 Qd7 7 ed, and if 7 ...Bd6 then 8 Nc3. Aren't these positions a bit thankless for Black, as his current scores, 40 per cent after both 7 ed and 8 Nc3 (not atrocious, just not very good), might imply?
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #22 - 07/06/04 at 11:54:20
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Quote:
6.Bc4 etc. 11...Nf6 12.Bd3 Qd5 13.c4 and what now?


If there's anything wrong with 13...Qc5 14.Be3 Ng4, I don't see it, 15.Bf4 Bd6 or 15...Bh4!?. Anyhow, I was not expecting white to give up the strong point at d4.

Quote:
6.Bf4 etc.
<13.Ne4 d5! 14.Nxf6 Bxf6 looks O.K. for black.> and how is this pawn sac justified after 15.Qxd5 ? Probably Bxb2+  but at a first glance this is hardly clear.

<11.Nb3 Qb6 12.Bxd6 Rd8 should be O.K.> So there is no need to look at 13.Bxe7 which I already mentioned.


<13.Ne4 etc> 

15.Qxd5 Bxb2+ 16.Kxb2 Qf6+ 17.Kb1 Rad8 18.Bd6 Nd4 19.Be5 Rxd5 20.Bxf6 gxf6 21.Bxa6 Re5 and Black has nice compensation in active rooks and a strong knight, or?

<11.Nb3> After 13.Bxe7 Rxd2 I don't see how white could be better. Even if fritz thinks so, but the computer often under estimates the queen in these middlegames, so if there's nothing forcing for White, will not Black be at least O.K. even if he has to give Pc5 to end development. R+B+2P vs Q could be clearly better later in the middlegame, but in the position in question I wouldn't worry I think.


As a probable closing argument of the thread, I just wanted to point at a simple and promising way to play for black. In blitz I've scored very well with this against considerably higher rated players, and I've also saved a lot of time on studying the Petroff! As 2...d6 is IMHO at least as promising for Black.

So don't knock it before you've tried it as Black! And that goes for all readers of this thread!

If anyone comes up with something CONVINCING for White, I may return to defend Black's colours, but so long for now.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #21 - 07/06/04 at 10:33:31
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<no evaluations without backing it up with moves.>
Only giving moves without any probable continuation is hardly better.
6.Bc4 etc. 11...Nf6 12.Bd3 Qd5 13.c4 and what now?
6.Bf4 etc.
<13.Ne4 d5! 14.Nxf6 Bxf6 looks O.K. for black.> and how is this pawn sac justified after 15.Qxd5 ? Probably Bxb2+  but at a first glance this is hardly clear.
<11.Nb3 Qb6 12.Bxd6 Rd8 should be O.K.> So there is no need to look at 13.Bxe7 which I already mentioned.
Though I have to admit that after 6.Be2 etc. 11...a5 is better than 11...c4 I doubt if it is enough for equality. In the first place 12.a4 is not forced (12.Be3 a4 13.Nd2) and in the second place I do not see after 12.a4 Be6 13.Nb5 or 13.Be3 how Black can play d5 without losing a sound pawn.
Well, this is my last post on the 5...Be7 variation. I do not believe I can convince AA. The Philidor is not in my repertoire with either colour. I think every reader has enough material now to analyse and decide for himself.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #20 - 07/06/04 at 08:43:27
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AmateurDragoneer gives no reply to my 4...a6 while Michael Ayton merely qoutes me. Hardly a convincing case for White.

Quote:
no evaluations without backing it up with moves.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #19 - 07/06/04 at 07:46:36
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<As for 4.Qxd4 you'll have to give which line you refer to, as I see no problems with 4.Qxd4>
I refer to the posts of AmateurDragoneer and Michael Ayton.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #18 - 07/06/04 at 07:23:49
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Quote:
In the Philidor-Be7 Variation, the early pseudo-sacrifice is not equal, as AA stated:
6.Bc4 o-o 7.o-o Nxe4 8.Nxe4 d5 9.Bd3 dxe4 10.Bxe4 Nd7 11.c3
a) 11...Nc5 12.Bc2 Ne6 13.Nf5 Bg5 14.Qg4 Bxc1 15.Raxc1 Qf6 16.Rcd1 +=.
b) 11...Nf6 12.Bd3 Bg4 13.Qc2 Bh5 14.Nf5 +=Djingarova=Eriksson,1994.


Of course it's equal. The only thing white can hope for is playing Nf5 without getting chopped off, which happens in both your selected examples. There are certainly better games to refer to than the one you chose. (12...Bg4?! and 13.Bh5?, 12...Qd5 and Bd6 should be one simple improvement)
Anyway, Black has 50% in my base after 10.Bxe4 and IMHO the chances are equal.

Quote:
a)7...a6 in the Luther-Sedlak game White can try 13.Ne4 Nd4 14.g5 and I would rather have White. Moreover there is the game Pein-Lund,1998.


13.Ne4 d5! 14.Nxf6 Bxf6 looks O.K. for black.

Quote:
b)7...c6 8.o-o-o b5 9.f3 b4 10.Nb1 c5 and now I suggest 11.Nb3 Nc6 (Be6 12.Bxd6 Ne8 makes no sense now and Qb6 12.Bxd6 Rd8 13.Bxe7 Rxd2 14.N1xd4 or simply 12.g4 look also good for White) Nd4 13.Bxe7 Nxb3+ 14.axb3 Qxe7 15.Qd6 with a big advantage.


11.Nb3 Qb6 12.Bxd6 Rd8 should be O.K.
12.Bc4 may be a better try, though Ba6! is probably sufficient.

Quote:
If White wants solid play, there is 6.Be2 o-o 7.Be2 Re8 8.f4 Bf8 9.Bf3 c5 10.Nb3 Nc6 11.Re1 c4 (else White has a lasting plus) Pap-Dimitrijevic,2003, 12.Nd4 d5 (Black's only chance for counterplay after 5...Be7) 13.e5 at least += because of Qb6 14.Be3 Qxb2 15.Ndb5 wins.


11...a5 12.a4 Be6 and black will play ...d5 under controlled circumstances as ...Nb4 and ...Bxb3 will follow eventually. No problem.




As for 4.Qxd4 you'll have to give which line you refer to, as I see no problems with 4.Qxd4.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #17 - 07/06/04 at 05:19:58
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In the Philidor-Be7 Variation, the early pseudo-sacrifice is not equal, as AA stated:
6.Bc4 o-o 7.o-o Nxe4 8.Nxe4 d5 9.Bd3 dxe4 10.Bxe4 Nd7 11.c3
a) 11...Nc5 12.Bc2 Ne6 13.Nf5 Bg5 14.Qg4 Bxc1 15.Raxc1 Qf6 16.Rcd1 +=.
b) 11...Nf6 12.Bd3 Bg4 13.Qc2 Bh5 14.Nf5 +=Djingarova=Eriksson,1994.
Neither do 6.Bf4 o-o 7.Qd2 a6 or c6 provide equality:
a)7...a6 in the Luther-Sedlak game White can try 13.Ne4 Nd4 14.g5 and I would rather have White. Moreover there is the game Pein-Lund,1998.
b)7...c6 8.o-o-o b5 9.f3 b4 10.Nb1 c5 and now I suggest 11.Nb3 Nc6 (Be6 12.Bxd6 Ne8 makes no sense now and Qb6 12.Bxd6 Rd8 13.Bxe7 Rxd2 14.N1xd4 or simply 12.g4 look also good for White) Nd4 13.Bxe7 Nxb3+ 14.axb3 Qxe7 15.Qd6 with a big advantage.
So White can prove a sound advantage after 6.Be2, 6.Bc4 and 6.Bf4 - not to mention 4.Qxd4. It is up to AA now, to prove that Black is OK after 3...exd4. I doubt if this is possible; White has an easy development, the better control of the centre and especially after 5...Be7 the more active pieces. Black lacks counterplay.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #16 - 07/05/04 at 11:48:35
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Quote:
1. If the Philidor g6 is a Dragon with the c-file closed, then the Philidor Be7 is a Scheveningen with that very same c-file closed. Why would Black want to play that?
2. The bishop on g7 is more active than on e7.


...g6 exposes black to an automatic h4-h5 attack without counter play. Be7 develops quicker without creating weaknesses, so in this case the Scheveningen must be a preferable set-up at the very least!

6.Qf3 was news to me, so I'll wait for Chop Ton's reaction - before I take the opposite view!
Though at the moment I lean towards Nimzowitsch's view - the farmer will miss the food he gave his dead pig!
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #15 - 07/05/04 at 09:48:05
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Whoops, it seems I've started a new trend with that little comment in the KG thread!  Cheesy

I only visit occasionally, but I guess I should add my 2 cents anyway.

That is, when I saw this thread I took a look in the books and found the following comment in Chris Baker's Startling Chess Opening Repertoire:

Quote:
6.Qf3!? This is a new idea which puts a bit of life back into the white side of the Antoshin Variation.


He then gives a couple of lines which roughly goes like this: 6...0-0 (6...Nbd7 7.Be2 Ne5 8.Qg3 0-0 9-h4!? which ends with good play for the pawn in van der Wiel-Bosboom, Leeuwarden 1994) 7.Nf5 Bxf5 8.Qxf5 Nc6 9.Be3 Ne5 10.Be2 c6 etc in Gross-Ramik, Olomouc 1995, where white again had good play for a pawn later on.

There hasn't been much action with Qf3, but the following game might be important - at least it's black's only win in 10 games.



McShane,L (2651) - Wall,G (2413) [C41]
4NCL (championnat) West Bromwich (6), 21.03.2004

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Qf3 0-0 7.Nf5 Bxf5 8.Qxf5 Nc6 9.Be3 Ne5 10.Be2 b5!?N 11.Nxb5 g6 12.Qf4 Rb8 13.Bc1 Nh5 14.Qe3 f5 15.exf5 Rxf5 16.Nd4 Bg5 17.Qc3 Bxc1 18.Rxc1 Qg5 19.Rd1 Qxg2 20.Nxf5 Qxh1+ 21.Kd2 Qd5+ 22.Kc1 Qxa2 23.Nh6+ Kf8 24.Bxh5 gxh5 25.f4 Rb5 26.b4 Qc4 27.Qd2 Ng6 28.f5 Nf4 29.c3 Rd5 30.Qc2 Rxd1+ 31.Qxd1 Qxc3+ 32.Kb1 Qxb4+ 33.Ka2 Qc4+ 34.Ka1 Kg7 35.Ng4 hxg4 36.Qxg4+ Kf7 37.Qh4 Qc1+ 38.Ka2 Qc2+ 39.Ka3 Qxf5 0-1

So what do think, is Qf3 better than Bf4 or what?

I suspect that old Nimzo would despise the idea of Nf3-d4-f5 getting chopped off in one move with the bishop, but the bishop pair may be more important than a couple of tempii, I guess.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #14 - 07/05/04 at 05:24:31
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1. If the Philidor g6 is a Dragon with the c-file closed, then the Philidor Be7 is a Scheveningen with that very same c-file closed. Why would Black want to play that?
2. The bishop on g7 is more active than on e7.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #13 - 07/05/04 at 03:52:49
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Quote:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7
compared to 5...g6 the bishop is more passive but the h2-h4-h5 plan makes no sense. So at first sight it is not clear what is better, to develop the bishop to e7 or to g7. That is not only logical; no one would state that the Dragon is better than the Scheveningen.


I don't see why 5...g6 is so interesting, unless you're a fianchetto addict. It's a dragon with the c-file closed, why would black want that?

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what you come up with against 7...a6 or 7...c6, for myself I definitedly thinks black's side is easy to play - no matter what Rambling Smiley thinks.

Statistically speaking, the Be7 variation is increasing in popularity among GMs over 2500, why would that be if White has such an easy advantage? If you break it down to specific players you can find quite convincing statistics for Black, for instance over the last few years: Pavasovic has 4 wins 1 draw 1 loss against a 2400 average. Sedlak has the same score, though slightly weaker average. Shirazi has 2 wins of two against two 2400s. Sure, black was the stronger player but if white is better and black has problems creating counter play, how come these 2400 guys couldn't draw more than 2 of 14. And still there's Nevednichy and Nisipeanu and so on.

These statistics doesn't prove anything of course, but they do indicate that black has good counter chances IMHO.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #12 - 07/03/04 at 14:24:56
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Have no fear y'all.... I'm back, Didja miss me.  Grin

Since many of you referred to a post of mine where I spoke to the viability of the Philidor as a whole, I decided to take your advice and bring that post here:

Quote - I'm afraid that the much maligned Philidor defence while perhaps not as bad as theory suggests, is certainly not a comfortable opening for Black.  

The Phil can be broken down into four main branches for black:

A.)-> Mestel's Variation: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5?! Over the years this line has been sporadically rehabilitated  as a surprise weapon by enterprising players. Nevertheless the current thinking is that this line is all but busted beyond repair. For more details just beg  

B.)-> Larsen's Variation (Resembles the Dragon, but minus the fire! :  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 ed4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 GM Tony Kosten in his book on the Philidor writes " It is not clear that, with accurate play, White can demonstrate any real advantage. Conversely, the slightest mistake on his part can lead to immediate, catastrophic consequences". LOL!! .....Maybe this might have been true in the pre Database age, but those days are long gone and in fact if white does play accurately Black is in dire straits. Compared to the Dragon, the half open e file in Larsen's line does not offer sufficient counterplay against white's 0-0-0 position. Please do not bother posting a response claiming that some combination of .....Nxd4, followed by....c5, Qa5, a6, b5 and Be6 offers black adequate counter chances. IT DOES NOT!!

C.)-> Antoshin's Variation:  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 ed4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 A much underrated system recently championed by the French phenom, GM Etienne Bacrot, however I expect this line to soon drop back out of fashion. The critical line still begins 6.Bf4!, and up until recently was thought to lead to a clear advantage for White. However the discovery of a surprising Rook sac for Black by GM D Nisipeanu has obscured the issue somewhat. Nevertheless with precise play White can still claim some advantage. Another promising path for White is 6.Nde2!? with the idea of g3 and Bg2 squashing any future central counterplay by Black. This line was recently used by GM Grischuk to defeat Bacrot.

D.)-> Hanham Variation: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6?! 4.Nc3?! Nd7 This is the starting position for the Hanham, and I think its Black's most reliable choice if he must play the Philidor. Please note however, that the move order given is not an optimum one since white can opt for 4.de5! Ne4 5.Qd5 which is known to lead to a slight but persistent endgame advantage for white. In light of this most Hanham Variation practitioners try other move orders in an attempt to reach their position, such as: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.Nf3 e5 or 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 It should be noted that both these alternative move orders have their pros and cons, and even if Black reaches his desired Hanham all is not roses, provided White knows his stuff.  

To sum up I don't think that the Philidor is good enough to have as your main defence to 1.e4, but as a surprise weapon it has its uses. I have seen even good White players go under quickly to an aggressive setup sometimes employed by Black in the Hanham line that goes something like this: Defer castling and go h6, Nbd7 to f8, g5, Ng6, Rg8, Nf4 with quite a powerful kingside attack - This particular setup is quite dangerous for White if one does not know how to counter it effectively.  

Theory does not consider either The Petroff or Philidor defence very ambitious or combative for black, so I remain puzzled by Ambitious Amateur's continued attraction to these lines. Considering AA's defensive tastes the handle 'Unambitious Amateur' seems much more appropriate. - End Quote.

Unambitious Amateur indirectly criticised my post for being pointless ramblings full of smilies Smiley.

Hmmm....seems my smiley/smilies are always a bone of contention, but to stay on point, the intent of the above post was not to write a Repertoire book or Opening Monograph but rather an overview of the most critical lines of the Philidor Defence and to guide forum users in the right direction to conduct further research.

A good overview is extremely important when preparing and deciding on one's repertoire. True I do tend to ramble on a bit, but we aren't all perfect. However, I am sure once you sift through my 'Ramblings & Smileys' carefully and had time to ruminate on them, you will find there is a method to the madness Grin

Furthermore, as Amateur Dragoneer quite astutely pointed out, the title of this thread is '1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.' so a complete look at the Philidor is not only in keeping with that but sure to benefit other would be Phil practitioners as well. If u wanted to focus on the Antoshin variation exclusively, then your thread should have been more specific.

Amateur Dragoneer (A.A) also raised another interesting line, namely: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4!?, this line which number quite a few strong GM advocates, is  also dangerous for Black but not quite as critical as those eminating from 4.Nxd4. Nevertheless, I suspect that below 2300 level that 4.Qxd4!? would do very well indeed, since defensive technique at this level is not as refined and White's position due to his lead in development is much easier to play than blacks as it is in the similar position reached in the Sicilian after: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4!?. It always puzzled me that 4.Qxd4 in the Sicilian is not more popular at amateur level, since this line is a lot more dangerous for black than theory would have us believe.

Moving on to MNb's post, I see you are on my side for once, welcome to the Force young Skywalker Grin
Like MNb, I also think that the exchange sac introduced in M. Brodsky - D. Nisipeanu while successful in that game and a few others is not quite sufficeint to solve all Blacks problems in this line. I will touch on this topic again in more detail in a future post as this one is already too long, so once again Unambitious Amateur u will have to exercise some patience.  

I also agree with MNb regarding: 6.Nde2 o-o 7.g3 b5! 8.Bg2 Bb7 This looks quite satisfactory to me.

MNb also mentions 6.g3, but the problem here for white is 6...d5! 7.e5 Ng4 8.Bf4  (8.e6 Nf6 9.ef7+ Kxf7 intending castling by hand after Re8 is fine for black) 8...g5! Black has done quite well in this messy position, though objectively White may still have a slight edge. Be that as it may I don't trust this 6.g3 line for White.

Returning to U.A's illustrative game Leko - Svidler it should be noted that this was a Rapid game (25mins per side), accordingly it is not clear what to make of Leko's avoidance of the critical 8.Ndb5, it could be that he was surprised by Svidler's choice of the Philidor and opted to play it safe considering the time control. But the big question has to be what did Svidler have in mind had Leko opted for the critical line. Time will tell I suppose.

Strangely enough Unambitious Amateur (U.A.) states that his attraction to The Philidor Defence is that it is EZ to play for Black. However all the analysis put forward so far suggests that it is anything but.

In due course I will focus in on the Antoshin in more detail, including black's quieter options 7...a6 and 7...c6 and show how White plays for the advantage, and perhaps more importantly why he has the advantage.

Stay tuned for more 'Ramblings and Smilies' from your friendly neighbourhood Top.

Top  Grin      

 

« Last Edit: 09/22/05 at 18:52:25 by TopNotch »  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #11 - 07/03/04 at 12:40:26
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no one would state that the Dragon is better than the Scheveningen.


I would!!!  Grin
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #10 - 07/03/04 at 10:21:17
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Let us drop the politeness issue. It is not that important and my feelings were not hurt. Apologies accepted.
Point 2 and I hope I can satisfy AA's unpatience:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7
compared to 5...g6 the bishop is more passive but the h2-h4-h5 plan makes no sense. So at first sight it is not clear what is better, to develop the bishop to e7 or to g7. That is not only logical; no one would state that the Dragon is better than the Scheveningen.
But the Philidor Be7 is considerably more passive than the Scheveningen indeed. Black has no counterplay along the c-file; counterplay along the e-file is not so strong. Here are some concrete lines:
A) I think the correctness of the exchange sac is a bit doubtful: 6.Bf4 o-o 7.Qd2 d5 8.Ndb5 c6 9.Nc7 d4 10.Nxa8 dxc3 11.Qxd8 Rxd8 12.bxc3 Nxe4 13.Bd3 Bd6 14.Be3
a)14...Nxc3 15.Bxa7 Na6 16.Bd4
b)14...Nc5 15.Rd1 Kf8 16.o-o b6 Boguslavsky-Sitnikov, 2002 and I can not find anything after 17.Bxh7.
White has good chances for an advantage here.
I must investigate 7...a6 and 7...c6 more closer yet, but improvements on 25th and 17th move are probably not sufficient when White has a wide choice.
B) If White wants solid play, there is 6.Be2 o-o 7.Be2 Re8 8.f4 Bf8 9.Bf3 c5 10.Nb3 Nc6 11.Re1 c4 (else White has a lasting plus) Pap-Dimitrijevic,2003, 12.Nd4 d5 (Black's only chance for counterplay after 5...Be7) 13.e5 at least += because of Qb6 14.Be3 Qxb2 15.Ndb5 wins.
After 7...c6 8.a4 Re8 9.Re1 Bf8 10.Qd3 d5 11.Bg5 White is also better.
C) More active is 6.Bc4 o-o 7.o-o c6 8.Re1 += as the well known pseudo sac Nxe4? does not work here because of 9.Rxe4 d5 10.Bxe7 Qxe7 11.Bd3 with a big plus.
Only when writing this, I noticed 7...Nxe4 so I have to take a closer look at this. My first impression is, that White gets a lead in development. My second impression is, that White can try 7.Qd3.
D) I am not convinced by 6.Nde2 because of o-o 7.g3 b5 8.Bg2 Bb7 unclear.
E) It is better to fianchetto with 6.g3 as Bg4 7.f3 Bd7 8.Be3 o-o 9.Qd2 is also slightly better for White, Timagin-Matjushkin,2001. White might in this case consider 3.g3 too if he is willing to transpose to Fianchetto Line of the Pirc.
My main objection against the Pirc is that White can adopt the strategy he likes the best. He can play solidly and try to stifle Black's play by preventing any counter action. He can also adopt sharper plans - usually by castling queenside. Black has problems to create counterchances. This opinion is confirmed by statistics. White scores 60% at least in most lines. Now I do not trust chess statistics too much, but from every point of view it is clear that Black faces an uphill struggle after 2...d6 and this is not considered OK these days.
Further posts will follow, including the Pirc move order.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #9 - 07/03/04 at 10:04:10
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Well, Mnb, I'm sorry if I've hurt your feelings, but for one thing I wrote specifically about the Be7 variation, and I asked why it was not more popular, not why the entire Philidor is considered inferior as that is your belief not mine.

I wanted to focus on the Be7 line since it's easy to  learn and play IMHO. 3...Nd7 is certainly playable, and playing 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 could be an important move order too, but all in good time.


Since the title of this topic says that black is okay after 2...d6 and not "Black is okay after 2...d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Be7," any line after 2...d6 is, by definition, on topic. If you wanted to focus specifically on the Be7 line, you should have said so IN THE TOPIC TITLE. Since we're trying to see if black is okay after 2...d6, I see nothing wrong with giving analysis on, for example, the ...g6 line in order to show that it is better for white and is not worth further investigation.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #8 - 07/02/04 at 20:14:47
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I don't want to be too solemn about this, but I think it's not just what one says in a post that's important, but how one says it. Sorry, but I think that "As for Mnb, where did I play ...g6? Please stay on focus" sounds decidedly haughty, quite irrespective of whether MNb's earlier remark could reasonably have been thought off-beam. Politeness costs nothing. It'd have been nice also to have had some acknowledgement of (even mild 'social' apology for, though I'm not one to be stuck-up about these things!) your overlooking, if you did, that I'd already set up a Philidor thread.

More importantly perhaps, why was my post of 1 July, asking "What of 6 Nde2!? then? And what's your recipe after 4 de Ne4 5 Qd5 Nc5 6 Bg5 Qd7 7 ed (7 ...Bd6 8 Nc3)?", not "remotely on topic"? I'm not a strong player, but these seem to me to be pertinent questions.

  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #7 - 07/02/04 at 10:57:55
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Well, Mnb, I'm sorry if I've hurt your feelings, but for one thing I wrote specifically about the Be7 variation, and I asked why it was not more popular, not why the entire Philidor is considered inferior as that is your belief not mine.

I wanted to focus on the Be7 line since it's easy to  learn and play IMHO. 3...Nd7 is certainly playable, and playing 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 could be an important move order too, but all in good time.

I spent a few hours on giving some lines on the critical line according to Top notch, and so far the only comment remotely on topic is that I left Qxd4 out.  Roll Eyes


Here's my previous two messages from the Petroff thread, for reference, should this thread take off for real. I'll give it a couple of days more to do so.


Quote:
As the Euro 2004 is practically over, let's resume the thread.

I saw Panda's message in that BIG king's gambit thread and got interested in why he thought the Philidor should be equal. So I took a brief look at the theory and practise, and there are a few very strong players that use it quite successfully, Dreev being one for example.

A line I've tried recently on the net with good result against several FMs is: 
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 exd4 5.Nxd4 Be7 - black is quite solid, and has two simple plans: playing ...a6 and ...c5 plus ...b5 if white avoids a4, or reverting back to the other plan of ...c6 and ...d5 or if white has played Bc4, ...Nxe4 with a fork trick. Just playing a bunker defence with Nbd7 and Re8 pressuring e4 also seems OK for black, as Nimzowitsch used to do in the 20s.

There are several things I like with the Philidor: 1, there are less 'unknown' gambits and such. 2, the position after 5...Be7 is easy to arrive at, the only major deviation is 3.Bc4. 3, white has so many 'obvious' set-ups that he may have a hard time choosing, especially since some are worse for him despite their 'natural' appeal.

Theory suggests that 6.Bf4 should give an edge, which might be true, though in practise black has at least three draws for every loss the last few years so it's hardly all that dangerous. 
Besides, from the handful FMs I played, none tried 6.Bf4. (One guy even logged off after losing and returned ten minutes later playing 4.dxe5 Nxe4 5.exd6 Bxd6 = )

How come this defence isn't more popular??


(1) 4 de Ne4 5 Qd5

5...Nc5 6.Bg5 Qd7 looks interesting, I doubt black is worse here anyway even if the queen might look out of place at the moment.

(If you don't like this you could also play 3...exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 I suppose.)
 
(2) 4 Nc3 ed 5 Qd4

5...a6!? might be the move here, gaining time with 6...Nc6 without allowing Bb5 or  6...c5 + ...b5 could also be worth considering, I'm not sure whether white should prevent this with 6.a4 or not. My hunch is that black is O.K. either way.
 
(3) 4 Nc3 ed 5 Nd4 Be7 6 Bc4

6...0-0 7.0-0 Nxe4 = 
Other white 7th moves would allow ...c6 & ...d5 or even ...b5. Play is reminiscent of some middlegames in the Alekhine/Scandinavian with 2...Nf6 or even the Pirc but without a fianchetto - which may be a perk as Bg7 often return to f8 to hold d6/c5 anyway
.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #6 - 07/02/04 at 09:33:43
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A.A. did, in fact, consider Qxd4 on move five in an earlier post. (He wants to play 3 ...Nf6 I believe.) In answer to a question from me he wrote: "(2) 4 Nc3 ed 5 Qd4: 5...a6!? might be the move here, gaining time with 6...Nc6 without allowing Bb5 or  6...c5 + ...b5 could also be worth considering, I'm not sure whether white should prevent this with 6.a4 or not. My hunch is that black is O.K. either way."

But I have to say, I agree with MNb about the politeness bit!



 
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #5 - 07/02/04 at 08:04:43
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You've overlooked an important line (and my personal favorite) in 4. Qxd4(!). 4...Nc6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. Bxc6 Bxc6 7. Nc3 Nf6 8. Bg5 Be7 9. O-O-O is the line I've been playing for about a year or so and it has served me well and can also arise via a Ruy Lopez move order and is often classified as a Ruy Lopez: Old Steinitz Defense instead of a Philidor. As far as 4th move alternatives, the only significant non-transpositional one is 4...Bd7 (or, I suppose, 4...a6?!) after which all white needs to do is develop the Bc1 on e3, f4, or g5 so that 5...Nc6 can be met by 6. Qd2 followed by O-O-O.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #4 - 07/02/04 at 05:09:12
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Not nice of you, AA. I asked for a few days. You asked for a complete explanation why the Philidor is inferior and my last post was just the first step.
But we seem to agree that 4...g6 is good for White; this is important, as it is one of the main systems Black can choose in the Philidor.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #3 - 07/01/04 at 09:27:26
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Mr Ayton, if you delete your post I think the thread will disappear as long as no one else has replied.

As for Mnb, where did I play ...g6? Please stay on focus.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #2 - 07/01/04 at 08:48:25
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Can you guys wait a few days? Until then I refer to the post of TopNotch - I seem to agree with him this time.
First point: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.f3 o-o 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.o-o-o is a line known from the Pirc Defense: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 o-o 6.o-o-o Nc6 7.f3 e5 8.Nge2 exd4 9.o-o-o and this is good for White. Black only has the slow plan a6, Ne5, b5, c5 while White follows the well known plan of the Jugoslav Attack - main ideas: h2-h4-h5, Bh6, g4/Nf5.
This is hard to handle for Black, who should be glad with a narrow escape to a draw.
  

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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
Reply #1 - 07/01/04 at 08:29:02
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Oh dear, now we have the Philidor mentioned in no fewer than THREE threads! Seems like A.A. didn't notice I'd already started a new thread. What should I do with this? -- should I, can I, delete it?

Interesting comments on 6 Bf4, A.A. What of 6 Nde2!? then? And what's your recipe after 4 de Ne4 5 Qd5 Nc5 6 Bg5 Qd7 7 ed (7 ...Bd6 8 Nc3)?
  
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6! and Black is O.K.
07/01/04 at 07:25:25
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Since some people wanted a Philidor thread on it's own, I'll use this one. So it's up to Mnb and company to prove me wrong.

Please keep this thread serious and to the point! AKA 1, no evaluations without backing it up with moves. 2, no pointless ramblings full of smilies signifying nothing.




Leko,P (2722) - Svidler,P (2747) [C41]
Amber Rapid Monte Carlo MNC (9), 30.03.2004

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4

[ 3...Nf6 is often considered more exact as it allows white more options of going wrong. 4.dxe5 is just an invitation to an early draw, for example: 4...Nxe4 5.Qd5 Nc5 6.Bg5 Qd7 7.Nc3 c6 8.Qd2 dxe5 9.Nxe5 Qxd2+ 10.Bxd2 Nbd7 11.Nxd7 Bxd7 12.0-0-0 0-0-0 13.Bc4 Be6 14.Bxe6+ Nxe6 15.Be3 Bc5 ½-½ Cabrera,A-Vescovi,G/I American Continental, Cali COL 2001 (15)]

[b]4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Bf4 0-0 7.Qd2 d5!? [/b] the latest trend, though I'm personally still sceptical, still a few weeks of analysis might convince me.

[ Personally, I find the following pawn attacks very appealing:

[u]7...a6!?[/u] 8.0-0-0 b5 9.f3 c5 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 Nc6 12.g4 ( 12.Bxd6 Qa5!) 12...b4 13.Nd5 Nxd5 14.Qxd5 Bg5= 15.Bxg5 Qxg5+ 16.Qd2 Qxd2+ 17.Rxd2 Nd4 18.c3 bxc3 19.bxc3 Nb5 20.Bxb5 axb5 21.Kb1 Rfd8 22.Rhd1 Ra6 23.Rd5 Rc6 24.g5 f6 25.g6 Luther,T-Sedlak,N/Reykjavik ISL 2004 (1-0 41) 25...hxg6= (instead of Kf8??);

[u]7...c6!?[/u] 8.0-0-0 b5 9.f3 b4 10.Nb1! c5 White can win Pd6 but I still like black here, here's a recent game: 11.Nb5 Be6 12.Bxd6 Ne8 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 14.Nd6 Nc6 15.Nxe8 Rfxe8 16.Qd6 Qb7! 17.Nd2 Al Modiahki,M-Belkhodja,S/ch-Arab, Casablanca MAR 2002 (1-0 38) ( 17.Qxc5 Rac8) 17...Red8 18.Qxc5 Rac8 with a lot of play for black, though Fritz says it 0.00 after 19.Nc4.]


[b]8.e5[/b] That Svidler is prepared to play the exchange sacrifice and Leko avoids it, could be an indication that the exchange sac below is at least equal.

8.exd5 Nxd5 9.Nxd5 Qxd5 10.Nb5 Qe4+ ( 10...Re8! is probably an improvement, e.g 11.Kd1 Qh5+ 12.Be2 Qg6! 13.Nxc7 Rd8 14.Bd3 Bf5 with good play for black.) 11.Be2 Na6 12.0-0 += Van den Doel,E-Kovacevic,A/EuTCh, Leon ESP 2001 (1-0 54)]


[ 8.Ndb5 c6!?

( 8...Bb4 9.0-0-0 ( 9.Nxc7!? Nxe4 10.Qxd5) 9...Ba5 10.exd5 a6 11.Nd4 Bxc3 12.Qxc3 Nxd5 13.Qg3 Nxf4 14.Qxf4 Qd5 15.Nb3 += Istratescu,A-Gelashvili,T/Patras 2001 (1-0 50);

9.Nc7 d4 10.Ne2

( 10.0-0-0 Nh5 11.Be5 Bg5 12.f4 Nxf4!?
( 12...dxc3 13.Qxd8 cxb2+ 14.Kb1 Bxd8 15.Nxa8 Bg4 16.Rd3 Na6 17.h3 +/- Pavasovic,D-Nisipeanu,L/90th LSK Metalka Trgovina, Ljubljana SL 2002 (½-½ 23))

13.Bxf4 Qxc7 14.Bxc7 Bxd2+ 15.Kxd2 dxc3+ 16.Kxc3 should favour white's bishop pair but Pe4 is weak, so it's probably just an academic advantage.;

10...g5 11.Be5 Nbd7 12.Bxf6 Nxf6 13.Qxg5+ Kh8 14.Nxa8 Re8 15.f3? White must have something better than this, which is why I'm not yet convinced about black's sacrifice. 15...Nxe4 16.Qe5+ Kg8 17.Qxd4 Bc5 18.Qxe4 Rxe4 19.fxe4 Be3 20.Rd1 Bf2+ 21.Kxf2 Qxd1 22.c3 Qd2  -/+ since Na8 won't get any further than c7 black was much better in Brodsky,M-Nisipeanu,L Varsity Match, London ENG 2001 (0-1 40); ]


8...Nh5 9.Nf3 Nxf4 10.Qxf4 c6 11.Bd3 Nd7 [ 11...f6!?] 12.0-0 Nc5 13.Bf5 g5 14.Qg4 h5 15.Qh3 g4 16.Qxh5 Bxf5 17.Qxf5 gxf3 18.Qg4+ Kh7 and white has a draw at best. (½-½ in 36)

  
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