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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Dangerous Pirc line (Read 7803 times)
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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #17 - 04/11/05 at 01:46:11
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I am resurrecting this thread, since this was a topic that I found interesting when I came across the website of analysis of Dzindzihashivili's line.  I was further intrigued by Davies' recommendation of this line in his book The Dynamic Reti.  This surprised me, since a lot of the analysis on that website seemed to be a bit amateurish with too much reliance on computers.  (The web page is not written by Dzindzihashvili himself, but is rather more of a tribute to his ideas.)

This is a look at Alumbrado's line.  On the "DIE PIRC DIE" website with analysis of Dzindzihashvili's line, his continuation is not analysed, though the plan seems very logical to me.  ...c4 reduces white's attacking options, by pushing the bishop to a more passive square at e2, where it interferes with the queen's development.  This combined with the immediate central counterattack with ...Nc6 and ...f6 seems like one of the most logical courses to meet this flank attack.  On the website, only two continuations are considered at move eleven, 11...Bg4 and 11...c4.  And after 11...c4 12.Be2, only 12...h5 is considered with the line running 13.Ng5 f6 with several nice sacrifices after 14.g4 using a computer engine.  However these plans seem illogical to me.  In the analyzed lines, black seems to either release the tension prematurely or make a unnecessarily weakening move instead of counteracting.  (Why weaken g6 with ...h5, when you intend to play ...f6 anyway?  Especially when white needs two moves to do this himself {h5 and hxg6}.)  Everything else not considered seems to be treated as a forced win!?  Take a look at the tombstone page for the Pirc with R.I.P. on it.  I am not kidding.  There used to be ominous music, but maybe the website designer decided it was a bit over the top.  

Here's a link:
http://www.alumni.plymouth.edu/~zrstephen02/Pirc_bites.html

Although it does not look like something to be taken seriously, there are a lot of interesting ideas here (well, they actually are from a grandmaster).  Probably the main weakness is not so much errors in the analysis, but rather the ideas for black that are not considered.  I am not making any great observation in saying that the presentation is a bit one-sided.

Pirc - Dzindi line [B08]

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3 a6 7.a4 d5 8.e5 Ne4 9.Bd3 Nxc3 10.bxc3 c5 11.h4 Nc6 12.h5 c4 13.Be2 f6 14.hxg6 hxg6 15.Nh4 fxe5 16.Nxg6 exd4 [16...Rf7 17.Nxe5‚] 17.cxd4 [17.Nxf8 dxe3µ] 17...Rf7

Alumbrado's analysis runs up to here.  He comments that he thinks black may be OK, but white may have a dangerous attack with a possible rook lift via a3.  I don't see a good way through for white, and I think black is well placed for a vicious counterattack.  Here is some analysis of a few possibilities, demonstrating some methods for black.  Note the defensive and offensive power of black's g7 bishop.  This piece seems to hold black's position together in spite of the denuded kingside.

I haven't used a computer to check this, so there may be some mistakes.  Even if there is an error, I don't think the ideas should be ignored.  Besides, my point is that computer analysis tends to be misleading.  For instance, the website only pays attention to computer moves, while ignoring natural human counterattacking attempts.  Computers are great, but I think people should carefully look for reasoning behind the moves.  It is very frustrating for someone to claim a forced win by Fritz with little explanation.  I think Davies was a little bit sloppy in analysis on this line, but maybe the intention was for the reader to work it out.  I haven't looked at it carefully yet, but Geof Strayer's (great contributer!) analysis looks like an interesting human approach that has been ignored.  

Anyway, I am not at all convinced that this is a refutation of the Pirc.  In fact, I don't even think this is a good practical try against the Pirc, unless you have analyzed the arising sharp positions very well and considered replies where black actually fights back.  It seems that white has to play very accurately for his attack not to backfire (if that is possible!).  I would not consider playing this line with white, unless I had deeply analyzed these positions on my own.

18.Bh5
Maybe there's a better way to continue the attack but I don't see it.

18...Qa5+ 19.Kf1

[19.Bd2 Qb6 20.Be3

(20.c3 e5 21.Nxe5 Nxe5µ)

20...Qb4+ 21.Bd2 c3 22.Be3 Nxd4µ;

19.Ke2 Qc3µ]

19...Qc3

Note the white's king isn't completely safe either, as the bishop on e3 is vulnerable due to the pin on the f-pawn.

20.Ne5

[20.Nf4 Rxf4 21.Bxf4 Qxd4 22.Qxd4 Bxd4 23.Rd1 e5ł]

20...Nxe5 21.dxe5 [21.Bxf7+ Nxf7µ] 21...Qxe5 22.Bxf7+ Kxf7µ

« Last Edit: 04/11/05 at 03:40:27 by X »  

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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #16 - 08/27/04 at 15:52:04
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Alumbrado:

  I don't play the Pirc myself, but unlike GM Dzindzi I do think that it's a perfectly respectable opening and has a right to live.  Smiley  Perhaps in your main line (i.e., after 1.Nf3 d6 2.e4 Bg7 3. d4 d6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3 a6 7.a4 b6 8.e5 Nfd7 9.e6!? fxe6 10.Bd3) 10...c5 is worth looking at more closely, as it seems  thematic for Black to react to White's flank attack with some central action if it can be made to work tactically.

I don't think that the line GM Davies gives in "The Dynamic Reti" following 10...c5 is entirely convincing (although I don't see anything that is necessarily much of an improvement for White):  After 10...c5 he gives 11.h4 Bb7 12. Ng5 cxd4 13.Nxe6 Qc8 14.Nxd4 (the alternatives are worse, e.g., 14.Nxf8 Nxf8! -+; 14.Nxg7  dxe3 -+; 14.Bxd4 Bxd4 14.Nxd4 Qc5! (Fritz) 15.Nf3 Ne5! 16.Be2 and Black has a choice between taking twice on f3 and playing Qe5+, or playing for an attack with Nbd7; in both cases he seems to be better) and here he gives 14...Bxd4? (my question mark) 15.Bxd4 e5 16.Be3, saying Black's position looks very exposed, which it does.  However, 14...Bxd4 looks somewhat suicidal to me, and Black seems to have various more promising ideas.  For example, 14...Ne5 looks interesting, with possibilities of Nxd3 or Bxg2 followed by Nf3+, both trying to defuse White's attack.  Some sample lines after 14...Ne5:

  (A) If White continues in the same caveman vein as Dzindzi's other lines with 15.h4, Black seems okay after 15....Bxg2 16.Rg1 (16.Rh2?! Nf3+ 17.Nxf3 Bxf3 18.Qd2 Qg4! 19.Bf1 Nc6, and Black seems significantly better with White's King stuck in the center and ideas like Be5 or Rac8, Ne5 and Nc4...) 16...Nf3+ 17.Nxf3 Bxf3 18.Qd2 (18.Be2 Bxc3+ 19.bxc3 Qxc3+ 20.Kf1 Bxe2+ 21.Kxe2 Qc4+ 22.Qd3 [If 22.Ke1, then 22...Nc6 with the idea of Nc6-e5-f3 probably forces an improved version of the Q exchange in a few moves anyway] 22...Qxd3 23.cxd3 Nbd7 24.hxg6 hxg6 25.Rg1 and after something like 25...Rf6 White may have enough compensation for one pawn, but I doubt he has enough for two) 18...Bxh5 and Black looks somewhat better, e.g. 19.Nd5 Ra7! 20. Nxb6 Qh3 (Fritz) and Black is a pawn up and White's King probably is not going to be any safer than Black's, and possibly will be less safe.

  (B) After the safer 15.f3, Black could try 15...Nbc6 (among other moves) when he seems to have a very playable position, e.g. 16.Nd5 (16.h5? seems to just lose to 16...Nxd4 17.Bxd4 Nxf3+ 18.gxf3 Bxd4, when Black must be winning; White must do something to meet Black's threat of taking on d4 and then f3) 16..Nxd3+ 17.Qxd3 Bxd4! 18.Bxd4 Qe6+ 19.Ne3 Rf4!? (19...Rac8 20.0-0 Rf4 21.Bxb6 Rxh4 also looks okay for Black, and Black has other possibilities here as well) 20.Bxb6 (20.Bc3 Nb4 21.Bxb4 Rxb4 22.h5 Rc8 [22...Rxb2!?] seems fine for Black) 20...Ne5 21.Qb3 (21.Qd2?? Nc4-+, and 21.Qe2 looks quite risky after 21...a5! with the idea of Ba6, when Black seems to get a strong attack) 21...Qxb3 22.cxb3 and after either 21...Rb4 22.Ba5 Rxb3 23.Bc3 Nd3+ (23...Rc8!?) or 21...Rc8!?, I suspect that Black is at least not worse and may have some chances to play for an advantage in this ending.

  (C) After 15.0-0, White's Ph4 seems slightly misplaced, Black's bishops are nice on the long diagonals, and Black may even be somewhat better after something like 15...Nxd3 (15...Nc4!?) 16.cxd3 (16.Qxd3?! e5! 17.Nde2 [17.Nf3? Rxf3! is winning] Qc6 18.f3 d5 and Black looks much better) and now after something like 16...Kh8 (White was threatening Qb3+) both sides have their chances but I would prefer to be Black.

  Of course, White may have other tries as well or improvements in the lines I have given (long analysis, wrong analysis!), but my general impression is that the 10...c5 idea is probably the critical test of White's rather crude attacking approach.  Sometimes the old rules ("respond to an attack on the flank with an attack in the center") still apply.   Smiley

   On a somewhat related topic, and notwithstanding my disagreement with him on this particular line, I like GM Davies' book "The Dynamic Reti" quite a bit.  Although I am more of a d4 player, I often use a 1.Nf3 move order and sometimes play Reti lines for variety, and I think Davies has done an excellent job of demonstrating how White can try for an edge/initiative in a number of critical Reti lines. (I note that Randy Bauer's review of the book on Jeremy Silman's website is also very positive.)  I recommend this book to anyone interested in developing a Reti repertoire.

  - Geof

   



  
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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #15 - 07/22/04 at 02:44:31
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Hmm ... I had not considered 12...Qa5  Embarrassed - it looks strange to go chasing pawns on the queenside when the king is about to come under fire, but I will certainly try to find some time to look at that.

My initial thought is that  I don't think 13.Qd2 can be critical - White must be prepared to lob some material onto the fire here in order to advance his kingside attack, and keeping the queen on d1 (whence it can go straight to h5, of course) is part of that.

I'll come back with variations, if I can work some out at any stage!
  

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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #14 - 07/21/04 at 21:51:56
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Alumbrado:

I looked some with Fritz, and this is what I get.

11. ...h5 12. Ng5 Qa5 13. Qd2 f6 14. exf6 exf6 15. Nh3 Bxh3 16. Rxh3 Nd7, and Fritz rates the position as about equal. It's weird, because black's King position looks unsafe, but on the other hand, white can't castle, and has some pawn weaknesses that black maybe can exploit.

I look forward to your improvements on the analysis.

Kevin
  
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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #13 - 07/21/04 at 03:38:26
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In reply to kevinludwig, the point is that White doesn't play [1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Be3 0-0 6. h3 c6 7. a4 d5 8. e5 Ne4 9. Bd3 Nxc3 10. bxc3 c5] 11.Qd2?! at all, but instead gets on with it with 11.h4! as in my initial post.

Then if Black blocks with 11...h5?, White simply plays 12.Ng5! when Black seems to me to be in all sorts of bother, as e5-e6 is a real problem.

For example (I am doing this rather quickly and without Fritz or any of his buddies, so forgive me if there are huge holes in this!):

[1] 12...e6 13.g4! and the attack is surely winning.

[2] 12...c4 13.Be2 f6 14.exf6 [I can't make 14.Bxh5 work but it is a possibility] 14...exf6 15.Nh3! with ideas of Nh3-f4 and/or g2-g4, and White is obviously much better.

[3] 13...Nc6 14.e6 cxd4 (14...Bxe6 15.Nxe6 fxe6 16.Bxg6 cxd4 17.Qxh5 Rf6 18.cxd4 and White is a pawn up, quite apart from anything else) 15.exf7† Rxf7 (15...Kh8 16.Bxg6) 16.Bxg6 Rf6 17.Qxh5 dxe3 18.Bf7† Rxf7 19.Qxf7† Kh8 20.fxe3 and Black is completely defenceless.
  

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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #12 - 07/20/04 at 03:19:56
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I perhaps didn't make clear enough in my original post - Davies cites Dzindzi as his source.
  

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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #11 - 07/19/04 at 18:52:05
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This e6 pawn sac is Roman Dzinzichashvili's idea, not Nigel Davies.

Initially Davies thought this was a good line for black against the h3, Be3 System until he became aware of Dzindzi's antidote. Still, I have analysed this line and I'm not completely convinced that black is worse.

Dzinzi tends to be over optimistic about anything he plays. He is a very entertaining speaker and player, though, and I recommend his DVD series for players between the 1500 - 2000 range.

Top  Grin
  

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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #10 - 07/19/04 at 00:05:41
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I looked at the link provided by Glenn Snow. I was wondering about a variation that was not analyzed.

Here goes:

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. Be3 0-0 6. h3 c6 7. a4 d5 8. e5 Ne4 9. Bd3 Nxc3 10. bxc3 c5 11. Qd2 Nc6 12. h4 c4

is given on the link provided by G.S. The author of the website states, "This move is advocated in Chernin's book." In my opinion, 12. ...h5 looks much better...black keeps pressure on d4, can continue with 13. ...Bg4, and by playing h5 has made it significantly more difficult for white to open the h-file on the K-side. Also, since the position looks vaguely familiar to a Sicilian dragon (at least in terms of white's K-side attack), 12. ...h5 seems worth considering, as that is how black defends in the dragon against similar attacking ideas. Fritz also gives the move an initial seal of approval.

What do you guys think?
  
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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #9 - 07/13/04 at 18:02:12
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I haven't had time to analyze any variations yet but I did use a portion of Alumbrado's initial post to indicate (in the Tigerchess group) that some thought went into Nigel Davies new book.  This led Keith Hayword to giving out the following link from Roman D's website which features a lot of analysis on this variation.  However some improvements for White are only in the Davies book.

Go to http://www.alumni.plymouth.edu/~zrstephen02/DIEPIRCDIE.html
« Last Edit: 10/12/04 at 22:29:13 by Glenn Snow »  
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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #8 - 07/13/04 at 08:13:46
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<his king looks decidedly shaky>
Exactly this is, why I prefer to avoid this line! Sorry if I was not clear enough, I wanted to state that Black does not need to defend against the vicious attacks Alumbrado/Davies showed without giving up the Pirc at all. Again: I do not really have an opinion.
  

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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #7 - 07/13/04 at 07:21:10
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This thread is going way off track!  I intended it to be a discussion of the line I posted initially, not of various methods to try to avoid it!  It looks dangerous, but I am nto ready to give up on it with Black just yet, still less abandon the opening I have played since I was a kid!  Can we get back to business?!  Grin

I actually think I made a small mistake in that initial post, as at the end I give [1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.e4 Bg7 5.Be3 a6 6.a4 0-0 7.h3 d5 8.e5 Ne4 9.Bd3 Nxc3 10.bxc3 c5 11.h4 Nc6 12.h5 c4 13.Be2 f6 14.hxg6 hxg6 15.Nh4 fxe5 16.Ng6] 16...Rf7, but I now think that the straightforward 17.Nxe5 there gives White a clear plus.  So Black should play instead 16...exd4 17.cxd4 and only now 17...Rf7.

The drawback to this, of course, is that the rook lift Ra1-a3(-g3) is now very much on if White can get his bishop out of the way.  Undecided

I actually think Black is hanging on here with his central play, but his king looks decidedly shaky and I worry that a better analyst than me will find a way for White to make that rook lift - or some other attacking device - work.  Shocked
  

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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #6 - 07/13/04 at 07:08:39
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Sure, but Black has a fair choice. If you dislike all possibilities, you should not play the Pirc at all!
  

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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #5 - 07/13/04 at 07:08:19
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White could still play ŕ la Davies, but then Black has the option 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 c6 5.a4 Nf6 6.h3 0-0 7.Be3 Nbd7 8.a5 Rb8!? which is pretty solid for him.

Glenn's first point is the real issue though - White can just play 5.Be3 with a standard 150 Attack.  I don't like this when Black is committed to ...c6 as I like to play the defence [1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be3] 5...a6 6.Qd2 b5 and follow up with ...Nc6(!)
  

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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #4 - 07/13/04 at 06:19:37
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After 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 c6, White could also try 5.Be3 or after the given 5.a4 Nf6 couldn't he still play the system recommeded by Davies with 6.h3 and Be3?
  
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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #3 - 07/13/04 at 05:08:19
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<1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 and if 4...c6, White simply plays 5.a4 when I don't see how Black can do better than 5...Nf6.>
<150 Attack style i.e. does without a4 >
Haven't you got something here? So 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 c6 5.a4 Nf6 is a Pirc when Black has avoided the 150-attack.
  

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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #2 - 07/12/04 at 08:33:46
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In my view 5...c6 would be ideal against this system, but not if White continues to play in 150 Attack style (i.e. does without a4 and plays Bd3 in response to ...b5)

In answer to your questions:

(1) It may well be that 6...b6 7.e5 is strong.  Since (after 7...Nfd7 8.e6) White is likely to use his h-pawn as a battering ram in any case, he has effectively saved a tempo by not playing h2-h3.  I suppose you could argue that the tempo Black has lost is castling, and that the king is safer on e8 than on g8.  I doubt this, though.  It is not as if it is going to escape to the queenside any time soon!  Undecided

(2) It doesn't really make any difference as far as White is concerned: 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Nc3 and if 4...c6 or 4...a6, he simply plays 5.a4 when I don't see how Black can do better than 5...Nf6.

To my mind, the fact that White has committed to Nf3 is a good reason to play a Pirc move order rather than a Modern, as it rules ut his two most dangerous options against the Pirc, namely 4.Bg5!? and the Austrian Attack.

(3) You know very well my feelings about the Dutch Defence!

(4) Davies does indeed recommend 1.Nf3 g6 2.e4.  Besides, 1...g6 does not fit in with my repertoire after 2.c4

There are of course various ways to avoid all the nastiness in my initial post - I have already indicated that a favourable transposition to the Czech System is possible at move three, and Black can also play 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.e4 Bg7 5.Be3 a6 6.a4 0-0 7.h3 Nc6!? which does not lead to quite such sharp play.

But the two variations I outlined above have I think  been Black's main responses to this Be3/h3 system so I wanted to highlight potential pitfalls to fellow Pirc players.  The variation has fallen out of favour with White players and has been seen as fairly safe for Black, so it is as well to know if White players are going to be coming at it from a new (and dangerous) angle.
  

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Re: Dangerous Pirc line
Reply #1 - 07/12/04 at 07:13:20
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Well, I do not really have an opinion, as I like 5...c6 better. But I do have a few questions.
1. What about 6...b6 or is 7.e5 strong again?
2. With this move order, what about 2...g6 as White has committed himself to Nf3 already?
3. I guess asking about 2...f5 and 1...f5 is superfluous.
4. What about 1...g6 or does Davies recommend 2.e4 ?
What I want to make clear, is that White is not the only one who can try to trick the opponent out of repertoire.
  

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Dangerous Pirc line
07/12/04 at 02:27:52
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A word of warning to fellow Pirc players out there - Nigel Davies' new repertoire book on the Réti recommends a transposition to a dangerous-looking attacking line against the Pirc when Black plays 1...d6.

1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 (interestingly, Davies gives lines against 3...Nbd7 and 3...Bf5 here, but I can't find anything about 3...c6!? with the idea 4.e4 Bg4 and a Czech System in which White can't play the dangerous 4.f4 line - perhaps this is a way to circumvent the whole issue - although of course it can come up via the 'normal' 1.e4 move order too) 4.e4 Bg7 5.Be3 a6 (as recommended by Pirc Alert and other sources as a good way to meet the 150 Attack, but now ...) 6.a4 0-0 7.h3 and we are into a different system which was really popular back in the late 80s, if memory serves me correctly.

Now Alburt and Chernin give 7...b6 and if 8.Bc4 e6! but Davies does a good job of showing that instead of 8.Bc4, 8.e5 Nfd7 9.e6!? fxe6 10.Bd3! is extremely dangerous for Black.  I haven't analysed this in depth, but I felt compelled to look again at the supposedly quieter waters offered by the standard antidote to this system, namely 7...d5 8.e5 Ne4.

Now Davies gives the sharp 9.Bd3!? Nxc3 10.bxc3 c5 11.h4! when White undoubtedly has a strong attack.
I spent a good chunk of time chewing this over with the help of Fritz 8 and Hiarcs 9 yesterday but without coming to a firm conclusion.

One thing is for sure: 11...Bg4?! is wrong, as after 12.h5! Bxh5? 13.Rxh5 gxh5 14.Bxh7+! Kxh7 15.Ng5+ Kg6 16.g4! White is more or less winning by force.  Davies gives this (citing Dzindzihashvili as his source), and all my defensive tries (including 16...Bxe5, which I think is the best try) met with comprehensive refutations by my silicon chums.

The best I could come up with for Black was 11...Nc6 12.h5 c4 13.Be2 f6 14.hxg6 hxg6 15.Nh4 fxe5! (15...g5 16.Ng6 Rf7 18.Bxc4! dxc4 19.Qh5 is incredibly dangerous and well worth spending some time analysing as there are some very pretty variations, but definitely to be avoided by Black, as a lot of those pretty lines end up with him being mated in mid-board!) 16.Nxg6 Rf7 when Black's king is obviously a source of some concern, but he does have some counterplay in the centre.

One important point is that after an eventual ...exd4, cxd4 White can try to get a rook lift in via Ra1-a3, with potentially devastating effect.  In some lines, Fritz doesn't like this at first as it usually means that d4 falls, but once the rook gets over to g3, Black falls apart.

It may be that Black's central play is sufficient, but it is certainly a line to be aware of - and more than a little bit wary, too, in my view.

Any thoughts?
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
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