Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 17
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C47: The Belgrade Gambit (Read 149549 times)
bamonson
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 31
Location: Colorado
Joined: 07/25/04
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #125 - 12/16/04 at 16:28:48
Post Tools
Quote:
Is there a new version?  I have the original, red book.


"Red" book?  Er, well my book has a white cover with black lettering and a black pen and ink illustration.  If you have something other than that then you do not have my book.

Bruce Monson

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #124 - 12/16/04 at 15:23:30
Post Tools
Quote:
Evidently Markovich doesn't have a copy of my book. 


Is there a new version?  I have the original, red book.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bamonson
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 31
Location: Colorado
Joined: 07/25/04
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #123 - 12/16/04 at 14:24:13
Post Tools
Quote:
I have only looked at it recently; I haven't studied it.  Provisionally, I am fairly happy with Black's game.  It seems that Black has quite good winning chances.  I don't have a board in front of me at the moment, but I'll try to get back soon with some specific ideas, both in this and in Polovodin-Hazai.


Evidently Markovich doesn't have a copy of my book.  If he did, he could answer a lot of the variations he is having difficulty understanding, such as in this 14...Qxh4 and 15...Kf7 line; and particularly the line 5...Nxe4 6.Bc4 Ne7 7.Ne5!, in which it would be an understatement to say that black has serious problems that persist to a white edge even if he manages to feel his way through the tactical mindfield.

One example (from my book) is a game between two of my good friends, Tim McGrew and FM Marcel Milat, in which Tim (as white) employs an original idea from GM Lev Gutman after: 5.Nd5 Nxe4 6.Bc4 Ne7 7.Ne5 Nd6 8.Qf3! Nxd5 9.Bxd5 Qf6 (9...Qe7? 10.Kd1! c6 11.Re1 [11.Bb3 is also possible] 11...cxd5 12.Qxd5 Qe6 13.Nf3 Be7 14.Rxe6 dxe6 15.Qxd4 +/-) 10.Qe2 Be7 11.h4! (threatening the deadly 12.Bg5) 11...h6 12.Rh3! (the crux of Gutman's idea, renewing the threat of Bg5 since the rook cannot be captured with check on h1 by the Rh8, along with the additional threat of Rf3) 12...O-O (castles into it, but then 12...c6?, 12...Nf5 and 12...Rf8 fail to either 13.Bg5 or 13.g4) 13.g4! c6 14.g5 Qf5 15.Rf3 Qh7 (black could hold out longer with 15...cxd5 16.Rxf5 Nxf5, but after 17.gxh6 Bxh4 18.Nf3! Bf6 19.hxg7 Bxg7 20.Bf4 d6 21.Ng5 and white can soon take his chips to the cashier.) 16.g6! 1-0

I should also remind people that in the Main Line with 5...Nxe4 6.Qe2, white has a choice of continuations after 6...f5, to include my revitalized idea of 7.Bg5!? which has brought me great success, as well as 7.Nd2!? d3 8.Qf3!, which has been almost completely ignored by theory, wrongly in my view.  There is also 7.Bf4, which is fully playable. 

Moreover, while both 6.Qe2 and 6.Bc4 are strong options after 5...Nxe4, white does have a couple of interesting options in 6.Bd3!? and 6.Nxd4!?, neither of which were covered in my 1997 book, but will be in the 2nd edition.

Finally, in the Main Line 5...Nxe4 6.Qe2 f5 7.Ng5 d3 8.cxd3 Nd4 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qh4 c6 11.dxe4 cxd5, it appears that white can play 12.exf5!? (instead of the usual 12.exd5) if he likes.

Bruce Monson
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #122 - 12/16/04 at 13:15:34
Post Tools
Quote:
Last time I played 6.Qe2 was in 1998. 
But you haven't answered to my question about your preference (as Black) for 5...Nxe4 6.Bc4 Ne7


I have only looked at it recently; I haven't studied it.  Provisionally, I am fairly happy with Black's game.  It seems that Black has quite good winning chances.  I don't have a board in front of me at the moment, but I'll try to get back soon with some specific ideas, both in this and in Polovodin-Hazai.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ygramul
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Roma
Joined: 11/18/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #121 - 12/15/04 at 09:51:37
Post Tools
Last time I played 6.Qe2 was in 1998. 
The variation you mention was played against me in 1996 but my opponent continued with 14....Nxf3 and the game at the end was a draw.

In my notes to the game I reported the game Polovodin Hazai 1-0 which continued 14..Qxh4 15.Nxh4 Kf7 16.Be3 f4 17. Bxd4 Bxd4 18.Bd3 d6 19.Nxg6

Perhaps 18...Rg8 is better

But you haven't answered to my question about your preference (as Black) for 5...Nxe4 6.Bc4 Ne7
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #120 - 12/14/04 at 11:52:17
Post Tools
Quote:
Besides if Black wants to play for a win he should take into account that after 5...Nxe4 the old classical line:

6.Qe2 f5 7.Ng5 d3 8.cxd3 Nd4 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qh4 c6 11.dxe4 cxd5 12.exd5

is going to probably end in a draw both after 12..Bg7



I have my doubts.  As I said earlier, 12...Bg7  13. Kd1! h6  14. Nf3 Qxh4  15. Nxh4 Kf7 looks quite good for Black.  Maybe White has play for a draw, but Black's game looks better to me. 
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ygramul
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Roma
Joined: 11/18/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #119 - 12/14/04 at 04:33:38
Post Tools
Besides if Black wants to play for a win he should take into account that after 5...Nxe4 the old classical line:

6.Qe2 f5 7.Ng5 d3 8.cxd3 Nd4 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qh4 c6 11.dxe4 cxd5 12.exd5

is going to probably end in a draw both after 12..Bg7 and 12..Qa5+.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ygramul
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Roma
Joined: 11/18/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #118 - 12/14/04 at 04:14:47
Post Tools

Of course I don't think that any forced variation exists which automatically gives White the advantage after 5...Nxe4.

However what I have experienced is that after 5..Nxe4 6.Bc4 the play goes in the direction desired by White:
1) very open position
2) at any time White can look for sacrifices and tactical opportunities that can suddenly change the assessment of the variation
3) computers programs often fail in assesting the position ( and that is a plus for a correspondance player like I am)

In practice:

After 6...Be7 7.Qe2 is very interesting as already mentioned by Bruce Monson in this forum (he also presented some games with this variation).  By the way if Black replies with 7...f5 (maybe for similarity to the 6.Qe2 variation) that gives the advantage to White after 8.Bf4

After 6...Bb4+ 7.c3 dxc3 8.00 00 9.Qb3 (Monson's idea) White has good attacking chances.  Personally I faced  this variation twice with 2 wins

Among the other moves I happened to face 6...Nc5 and here White has excellent winning chances after 7.Bg5 f6 8.Nh4 d6 9.Bxf6 Ne7 10.b4

On the other hand I've never met 6...Ne7 that you mention as Black's best try.  Honestly I'm not in the position to comment this move but after 7.Ne5 in my database I have 16 games with this variation with an excellent score for White: + 69% =38% -12%
Maybe you know something I don't.  If so I would appreciate to share your view about this variation.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #117 - 12/13/04 at 16:30:45
Post Tools
Quote:
I don't agree that 5...Nxe4 is the best choice if Black is looking for a win.  I would rather play 5...Nb4.
As a matter of fact when I play the Belgrade Gambit with White I'm happy if my opponent plays 5...Nxe4 accepting the gambit!



Well, it would be very helpful if you would supply some of your thoughts in the specific variations being discussed here.  For example, if you think White is O.K. after 6. Qe2, why?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ygramul
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Roma
Joined: 11/18/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #116 - 12/11/04 at 15:42:17
Post Tools
I don't agree that 5...Nxe4 is the best choice if Black is looking for a win.  I would rather play 5...Nb4.
As a matter of fact when I play the Belgrade Gambit with White I'm happy if my opponent plays 5...Nxe4 accepting the gambit!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEGutman
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Psychological draw offers
are the key to success.

Posts: 41
Location: Pasadena
Joined: 12/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #115 - 12/09/04 at 18:33:35
Post Tools
I will quote my friend's former coach "first I will find draw, then I will find win".  The best way to try to refute a line is to first prove that you can equalize easily and then find a refuting plan.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #114 - 11/29/04 at 07:52:34
Post Tools
Quote:
As a matter of fact this is exactly one of the comments in the Barnsley,T - Reijnen,M reported in Bruce's last post with equality judice. Therefore that can't be consired the last word on the variation.


I was not trying to propose the last word, just that an intermediate conclusion must be that Black is no worse than equal.  Barnsley  gave the line after 13. Qh4 Ng6; I observed that Black could also get the same outcome from 13. Qe5 Ng6 -- there is nowhere to go but g3.  So Black must be at least equal.

Yeah, I agree this line is more relevant after 5...Be7.  But I am arguing that Black can play to win against this system, and that the way to do that is to play 5...Nxe4.   White has a number of ways to equalize after 5...Be7; according to my understanding, he doesn't need to offer this gambit.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ygramul
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Roma
Joined: 11/18/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #113 - 11/29/04 at 03:19:52
Post Tools
Quote:
Well nobody is answering; is it because of American Thanksgiving?  

Having looked some more, it appears that 11...b6 is at least good enough for full equality.  After 12. Bg5 c5  13. Qh4 Ng6  14. Qg3 Nh5  15. Bxd8 Nxg3  16. Bxb6 axb6  17. hxg3 Bd7 is no better than equal for White, am I wrong?  That leaves aside all Black's tries other than 14...Nh5.  And if 13. Qf4 then just 13...Ng6  14. Qg3 is the same -- leaving aside any prospects Black may have from playing 13...Nc6.


As a matter of fact this is exactly one of the comments in the Barnsley,T - Reijnen,M reported in Bruce's last post with equality judice. Therefore that can't be consired the last word on the variation.

Quote:
In any case, is this the critical line?  Isn't it rather, 5. Nd5 Nxe4  6. Bc4 Ne7!?


Well in my opinion the importance of the line is related to the following move order which may happen when White decides to reply with 6.Bc4 to 5..Be7:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nd5 Be7 6.Bc4 OO 7.OO Nxe4
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #112 - 11/27/04 at 20:59:24
Post Tools
Well nobody is answering; is it because of American Thanksgiving? 

Having looked some more, it appears that 11...b6 is at least good enough for full equality.  After 12. Bg5 c5  13. Qh4 Ng6  14. Qg3 Nh5  15. Bxd8 Nxg3  16. Bxb6 axb6  17. hxg3 Bd7 is no better than equal for White, am I wrong?  That leaves aside all Black's tries other than 14...Nh5.  And if 13. Qf4 then just 13...Ng6  14. Qg3 is the same -- leaving aside any prospects Black may have from playing 13...Nc6.

I confess to some puzzlement concerning 12. Bg5 c5  13. Bxf6?! cxd4  14. Bxe7, but my belief is that Black can't possibly be worse there.

In any case, is this the critical line?  Isn't it rather, 5. Nd5 Nxe4  6. Bc4 Ne7!?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ygramul
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Roma
Joined: 11/18/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #111 - 11/26/04 at 03:25:23
Post Tools
I agree in thanking Bruce.  My feeling is that the success of this forum on Belgrade Gambit is due mainly to his posts which are always very interesting! (Also his site, which unfortunately went down, was very interesting)

By the way, Bruce, it would be interesting to know your scores with BG both with White and Black.

I put this question because, though I'm a supporter of BG, looking only at my games I must admit that the score is better as Black:

with White: +6 =5 -3 which is fine (equal or better than in other openings)

with Black: +3  =2 -0 which is even better

Finally a curiosity: I met Efendeyev by e-mail in 2001 but he didn't allow me to play the Belgrade Gambit and played 4...Bb4 instead

Francesco Costa


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 17
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo