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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C47: The Belgrade Gambit (Read 105752 times)
elmudo
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #230 - 01/30/11 at 11:22:32
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CraigEvans wrote on 01/17/11 at 20:41:11:
but my cojones are not that big these days...


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Sorry, but as a Spaniard I find that expression in the mouth of an English speaker extremely funny!!

Now seriously: does Monson have a new website on the Belgrade, or you're referring to his former one (long time defunct)?

Best regards,
  
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CraigEvans
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #229 - 01/17/11 at 20:41:11
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I came out of a one-year retirement from active chess this weekend to participate in the 4NCL... my first game, as blackk, and guess what is thrown at me? (Via a 1...Nf6 move order, I should say)

Anyway, suffice it to say I remembered very little of any of this, having barely looked at a board in so long. So, I did the sensible thing, and played 5...Nxe4 - backing myself and not being a coward after the strong words.

Anyway, 6.Bc4 Be7 7.Qe2 Nc5 8.Bg5 Ne6 9.Nxe7 Nxe7 was the continuation, after which my opponent deviated from the usual 10.Bxe6 and instead preferred a quieter continuation with 10.O-O d5!? 11.Bxe7 Qxe7 (I did sit there for some time trying to make 11...Kxe7 work, but my cojones are not that big these days...) 12.Bxd5 O-O 13.Kb1?! c5 and after a few complications we eventually reached a peaceful conclusion - I would say white does not have enough for his pawn in this position, though he clearly does have play with moves such as c3 and Ng5 in some lines. On the other hand, discussions a while back centered on the far more critical lines after 10.Bxe6, where the onus was on both sides to prove something - my gut feeling was that white had at least enough, whereas Markovich and others felt black was at least equal and possibly more so. Still, it's an interesting open game in a non-theoretical position with chances for both sides - at the sub-2200 level I don't think you can ask for much more as white.

It may not be of any interest to anyone, but since the thread was still active and I'm back on the scene, I thought it might interest someone to see how I handle the black side. I maintain that 5...Nxe4 is the only critical move (though in a 4NCL game a few years back I did record a 9 move win in the 5...Nb4 line  Grin)
  

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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #228 - 01/14/11 at 00:17:22
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Thank you Mark for clearing that up. Due to the "teams and countries" I thought it perhaps a fake especially since I didn't think you'd play the black side of the belgrade. I'm glad I asked and glad you took the time to clear it up.

Thanks
  

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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #227 - 01/13/11 at 22:04:26
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bump
  

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Markovich
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #226 - 01/12/11 at 14:18:27
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Sandman wrote on 01/11/11 at 17:00:36:
Hey,

I found this Belgrade game in my database and was curious if it is an actual game or an "engineered" fake by someone. I hope Bruce or Markovich can verify it's validity or if they do not see this perhaps someone else can comment.


[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Monson Bruce"]
[Black "Morss Mark F"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C47l"]
[EventDate "1998.??.??"]
[PlyCount "51"]
[Source "Everyman Chess"]
[SourceDate "2007.04.15"]
[WhiteTeam "Romania"]
[BlackTeam "Hungary"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "ROM"]
[BlackTeamCountry "HUN"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nd5 Nb4 6.Nxd4 Nbxd5 7.exd5 Bc5 8.Nb3 Bb6 9.d6 O-O 10.Qf3 Qe8+ 11.Be2 Ne4 12.Bf4 Bxf2+ 13.Kf1 Bb6 14.Re1 f5 15.Bc4+ Kh8 16.Bd5 cxd6 17.h4 Qg6 18.h5 Qf6 19.c3 Bc5 20.g4 b6 21.Nxc5 bxc5 22.gxf5 Qxf5 23.Bxa8 Qxf4 24.Qxf4 Rxf4+ 25.Kg2 Nf6 26.Re7 1-0


Thanks


I wrote about this on correspondencechess.com, back in the days when I was still active there.  The actual game began on White's 19th, ended after White's 20th, and was part of a lengthy email discussion between me and Monson in which, for the sake of argument, I upheld Black's chances after 9.d6.  From my point of view it was a purely hypothetical dispute.  The conversation was entirely polite, but I think that Monson may eventually have grown somewhat annoyed that I kept saying that Black was O.K.. 

So we're up to, as I recall, 18...Qf6 in our disputations, I say "Black is O.K." and Monson says, "How would you like to play a game from this position?"  I agree, and he sends 19.c3, I reply 19...Bc5, and he uncorks 20.g4!.  I then resign, since not having seen this strong move earlier, it's clear that I've underestimated White's chances.  I don't think much about it, except that it's a strange way for Monson to show me 20.g4!. 

So I was suprised to see later that Monson had published the game, such as it was, on his website, larded with lengthy analysis after 20.g4!.  Reading it would've been a little like sitting in post-mortem with the guy who spends several minutes showing you exactly how brilliant his winning idea was.  But having already understood the strength of Monsons' move, I didn't read further.  Monson did report my resignation on the correct move.  I don't recall whether he bothered to say that the actual game had begun on move 19. Someone has evidently copied some of his analysis into the quoted pgn, but the score as quoted is false. 

On one hand it was a little amusing, but on the other a little unkindly, that Monson took what was essentially an offhand training exercise between chessfriends and presented it as him removing my scalp in an serious CC game.  In discussing my resignation at move 20, Monson said something like "Early resignations are common in CC, where players often carry the burden of many games."  True enough, but it fostered the false impression that this was a formal CC game. In such game, I almost certainly would not have adopted this way of replying to the Belgrade, and if I had, I would like to think that I'd have applied myself a little harder around moves 15-18 and not fallen into Monson's 20.g4! idea.  But I did agree to a game, and Monson won, so there it is.

Having made a favorable impression on many people with Hard Chess, I later discovered that my defeats tended to show up in print with rather rather suprising regularity.  I suppose that people thought that it was neat to have the scalp of a celebrity, albeit a very minor one, though in fact I am a rather middling player whether of CC or OTB.  

Monson is a strong player, and he might well beat me if we ever played a proper CC or OTB game. Or perhaps I might beat him.

On correspondencechess.com I said that if you and your honey are strolling along the carnival midway some evening, munching on popcorn and listening to the calliope, and you see Monson in a booth, grinning demonically over a chess position and offering you a chance to play Black's side of it, walk on.

Here is a corrected score if anyone's interested:

[Event "Training game"]
[Site "email"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Monson Bruce"]
[Black "Morss Mark F"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C47l"]
[EventDate "1998.??.??"]
[Source "Morss, Mark F."]
[SourceDate "2011.01.11"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[FEN "r1b2r1k/pp1p2pp/1b1p1q2/3B1p1P/4nB2/1N3Q2/PPP3P1/4RK1R w - - 1 19"]

{The game commenced at the position arising from 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nd5 Nb4 6.Nxd4 Nbxd5 7.exd5 Bc5 8.Nb3 Bb6 9.d6 O-O 10.Qf3 Qe8+ 11.Be2 Ne4 12.Bf4 Bxf2+ 13.Kf1 Bb6 14.Re1 f5 15.Bc4+ Kh8 16.Bd5 cxd6 17.h4 Qg6 18.h5 Qf6 - Morss} 19.c3 Bc5 20.g4 {20...b6 21.Nxc5 bxc5 22.gxf5 Qxf5 23.Bxa8 Qxf4 24.Qxf4 Rxf4+ 25.Kg2 Nf6 26.Re7 - Monson} 1-0
« Last Edit: 01/12/11 at 15:30:53 by Markovich »  

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Sandman
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #225 - 01/11/11 at 20:41:03
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Me too, MNb.  It really struck me as rather odd so I thought I'd ask.
  

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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #224 - 01/11/11 at 20:35:59
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As Monson and Morkovich both are American I am a bit suspicious.
  

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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #223 - 01/11/11 at 17:00:36
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Hey,

I found this Belgrade game in my database and was curious if it is an actual game or an "engineered" fake by someone. I hope Bruce or Markovich can verify it's validity or if they do not see this perhaps someone else can comment.


[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Monson Bruce"]
[Black "Morss Mark F"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C47l"]
[EventDate "1998.??.??"]
[PlyCount "51"]
[Source "Everyman Chess"]
[SourceDate "2007.04.15"]
[WhiteTeam "Romania"]
[BlackTeam "Hungary"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "ROM"]
[BlackTeamCountry "HUN"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nd5 Nb4 6.Nxd4 Nbxd5 7.exd5 Bc5 8.Nb3 Bb6 9.d6 O-O 10.Qf3 Qe8+ 11.Be2 Ne4 12.Bf4 Bxf2+ 13.Kf1 Bb6 14.Re1 f5 15.Bc4+ Kh8 16.Bd5 cxd6 17.h4 Qg6 18.h5 Qf6 19.c3 Bc5 20.g4 b6 21.Nxc5 bxc5 22.gxf5 Qxf5 23.Bxa8 Qxf4 24.Qxf4 Rxf4+ 25.Kg2 Nf6 26.Re7 1-0


Thanks
  

“All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy.
That's how far the world is from where I am.
Just one bad day.”
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ghenghisclown
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #222 - 06/28/09 at 20:54:26
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I'm not usually proud of ignorance. What makes this an exception though is the same factor that allows people to sometimes pass standardized tests without knowing a particular subject to be tested. I would rather maximize my performance on the other 99 games (where I am sure to suffer some loses against openings that come up with some frequency) by studying those lines, middlegames, and so forth. Now, I've been to nearly every chess hangout in town, watched or played nearly every high expert or master (Cuz it's not Berlin here, it's L.A., much less players/clubs) and I have yet to see even one Belgrade Gambit played in tournament or even Blitz. Even the Serbians I've seen don't play it!

I like 1...e5 a lot. To me, the discussion on this particular thread must be based on whatever pleasure the opening produces rather than on practical results. In anycase, I'm unlikely even to face it at all, even in 400 games. But playing e5, I'll get the Spanish, Scotch, and Italian for sure. Don't want to be so negative, but after these pages and digital ink spilt on this topic...
  

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CraigEvans
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #221 - 06/28/09 at 16:30:45
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The point is I assume you intend to play more than 100 games in your career. Therefore, if you meet the Belgrade one in every hundred, then you will likely meet it more than once. With a little bit of work, you might actually get yourself some easy draws or even wins. With your proudly-exclaimed wholesale ignorance, you most likely will lose that game when it comes around... and those types of losses do start to add up, given I assume you treat other "lesser" systems such as the Ponziani, various Scotch/Italian Gambits etc with equal ignorance. That 1 defeat in a hundred quickly becomes 5 or 6, and over a career those results make a difference.

The choice is yours, I suppose. The saddest thing is that by deliberately choosing to be ignorant of the opening, you're actually missing out on some wonderful games, and some very interesting lines, both positional and wildly tactical as you prefer. Still, your loss is your opponent's gain. Wink

Still, I'm not sure why you even felt the need to comment on the thread, if your only opinion was such a dismissive one. It seems more sensible to just post on things you're actually interested in, and leave those of us who are actually interested in the opening to discuss it.  Cool
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #220 - 06/27/09 at 15:18:10
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How do you lose a lost one in a hundred game more often than not? Wouldn't it then be a two in a hundred? Anyway, I'm looking forward to wholesale ignorance on this gambit...
  

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CraigEvans
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #219 - 06/27/09 at 10:32:47
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ghenghisclown wrote on 06/27/09 at 08:35:13:
I'd rather lose that one in a hundred Belgrade game as Black than spend more than 10 minutes total studying it.


And with this attitude, my chessfriend, you will lose that one-in-a hundred Belgrade game more often than not. Wink

Kafka - no problem, I'll either bring it down this Monday if I can make it, or else next Monday for the 3rd round.
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #218 - 06/27/09 at 08:35:13
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I'd rather lose that one in a hundred Belgrade game as Black than spend more than 10 minutes total studying it.
  

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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #217 - 06/26/09 at 17:23:39
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I thought that I might pick one up at that price as well! Monson seems like a good guy who knows a little too much about the Belgrade...might be worth a looksy.  Grin
  
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Re: The Belgrade Gambit
Reply #216 - 06/26/09 at 16:37:44
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TonyRo wrote on 06/26/09 at 14:43:28:


That's a bargain, for ten bucks.
  

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