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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) beating the philidor defense (Read 12034 times)
MNb
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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #15 - 01/05/05 at 19:33:53
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I recall having read that 3.Bc4 Be6 is playable for Black.
  

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Peter Kitchen
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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #14 - 01/05/05 at 10:07:23
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I like to play 3.Bc4 against the Philidor, with threats to transpose into favourable lines of the Two Knights, or at least lines that black wants to avoid.
  
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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #13 - 12/31/04 at 16:18:04
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Maybe Black should just accept a minor disadvantage coming out of the open and challenge White to attack his/her solid defense...   Undecided
  

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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #12 - 12/31/04 at 09:51:39
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The Mestel Variation: 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5!? is extremely risky for black.   

A simple and effective antidote for white is 4.Nc3! with one of the key ideas being 4...fe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Neg5 h6 7. Nf7!! (The second exclam is for the shock value of the move) 7....Kxf7 8.Nxe5+ with a very strong, probably winning attack.  Topnotch

I've seen 5...Nf6, after 4.Nc3 fe4 5.Nxe4, recommended as an improvement by Bücker.  I think the idea was 6.Nxf6 gxf6, or 6.Bg5 Be7 7.Nxf6 gxf6.  I believe IM Welling has played this way as Black.  I don't think this changes the original assertation that the Mestel variation is extremely risky for Black however.
  
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HgMan
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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #11 - 12/29/04 at 11:21:36
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I very much like the g3/Bg2 kingside fianchetto setup against the Philidor (as recommended by nigel davies in his reti book). Sooner or later Black will run out of moves to play and will try something stupid or weakening  Grin


Sounds like my chess style in general, though I don't have to be playing the Philidor to try something stupid or weakening!   Wink

Can't Black just sit patiently against these kinds of lines and maneuver and strengthen peacefully?
  

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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #10 - 12/29/04 at 10:20:01
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I very much like the g3/Bg2 kingside fianchetto setup against the Philidor (as recommended by nigel davies in his reti book). Sooner or later Black will run out of moves to play and will try something stupid or weakening  Grin

  
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HgMan
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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #9 - 12/29/04 at 09:08:00
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Thanks!  I'm not sure if I'll ever actually play this, but it would be nice to have something a little different in the tool bag.  Are there variations, though that transpose to the Guioco Piano?  It seems as though standard development takes you that way.  Am I missing something?  I presume that after an early Nc6, play could also transpose into lines of the Ruy Lopez.  Apart from being committed to locking in the bishop on f8 at move 2, is there anything that distinguishes the Philidor from these other king-pawn defenses?  Does the b8 knight gravitate toward d7 instead?
  

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Mike Thomas
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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #8 - 12/26/04 at 21:14:10
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Assuming, with your Caro-Kann & French preferences, that you want a super-solid line, try playing the Hanham via a Pirc move order; 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5.
  
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HgMan
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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #7 - 12/26/04 at 20:15:36
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I'll keep looking then!   Wink

I'm not sure f5 is the solution, but 5 ... d5 looks horrible.  Why not 5 ... Nf6 or even 5 ... Bg4?

I've been looking for a secondary opening against 1 e4 (I tend toward the French and the Caro), and find the Philidor quite interesting.  Can anyone recommend any lines worth pursuing?
  

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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #6 - 12/26/04 at 18:16:20
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The Mestel Variation: 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5!? is extremely risky for black.  Grin

A simple and effective antidote for white is 4.Nc3! with one of the key ideas being 4...fe4 5.Nxe4 d5 6.Neg5 h6 7. Nf7!! (The second exclam is for the shock value of the move) 7....Kxf7 8.Nxe5+ with a very strong, probably winning attack.

Long story short, I wouldn't touch The Mestel Variation with a ten foot pole, its bad for Black's health.

Regards,

Top  Grin
  

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HgMan
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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #5 - 12/24/04 at 17:28:55
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It seems as though Black also has sharp ideas after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5!?  Does anyone have ideas for White or Black after this?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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MNb
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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #4 - 09/30/04 at 21:00:34
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The line 1.e4 d6 2.d4 e5!? also occurs in the Danish Gambit. White is a little better after 3.dxe5 dxe5 4.Qxd8+ Kxd8 5.Bc4!? with a smooth development.
But hey, Black Lion, if you already have to combat the Philidor, than 3.Nf3 is logical.
An improved version for Black is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 and now the exchange is not so great anymore. 4.Nf3 is a standard Philidor again, but if you want to avoid this, 4.Nge2 with 5.Be3 to follow is a decent idea.
  

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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #3 - 09/30/04 at 15:47:05
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ok thanks alot that helps...but what about when this line occurs...
1.e4 d6 2.d4 e5!? 3. dxe5 dxe5 4. QxQ KxQ etc...what is whites best reply to this line? should white actually avoid the queen trade? i dont really want to play 2.Nf3..id rather stick with 2.d4 for white.
  
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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #2 - 09/30/04 at 04:50:00
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For a serious study I highly recommend Alexander Khalifman´s
"Opening for White according to Anand"
Volume One deals with the Latvian gambit, Philidor, Petrov, Ruy Lopez without 3...a6.

Khalifman does not only give many variations but also explanations how the variations were developed and how to play these structures!
  
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tracke
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Re: beating the philidor defense
Reply #1 - 09/30/04 at 04:33:33
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hello derek,

the best way to encounter the philidor is to avoid it: play the king´s gambit  Wink

My second choice (and admittedly a practical one) is to play 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Nc3 with 4.g3/5.Bg2/6.0-0/7.h3 to follow. Then later you can open the game with d2-d4 or attack on the kingside with d2-d3/Nf3-h4/f2-f4 . It´s a kind of KingsIndianAttack or Fianchetto Pirc or Four Knights Glek Variation (however you want to call it). Many Philidor players are unfimiliar with this as they cannot exchange quickly on d4 and attack the pawn on e4.
After 3.Nc3 f5!? there is 4.d4 fxe4 5.Nxe5?! Nf6 6.Bg5 dxe5 7.dxe5 Qxd1+ 8.Rxd1 with compensation for the piece. This is in fact a sideline of the latvian gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.d4 fxe4 4.Nxe5 Nf6 5.Nc3 ...) and I don´t know if it is refuted, in blitz games it works fantasticly!

If you really want to improve you should play the principal and main line with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4! though it´s some theory to learn and black players usually know their stuff. But white should get a slight advantage in an open game.
It´s not easy to continue in variations as black now has a wide choice:
(a) 3...Nd7
(b) 3...exd4 4.Nxd4 g6
(c) 3...exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7
(d) 3...exd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Bb5 ->Ruy Lopez Steinitz
(e) 3...exd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6
(f) 3...Nf6
(g) 3...Qe7?!
(h) 3...Bg4 4.dxe5 Nd7?!

I suppose your friend plays an Hanham like (a) with c6/Qc7/Be7/Nf6/0-0 to follow. But after 4.Bc4! you have real threats against f7, for example 4...Be7? 5.dxe5 Nxe5 6.Nxe5 dxe5 7.Qh5 +- . I cannot give the whole variations here but in every line white should keep advantage. (f) is a try to improve with 3...Nf6 4.Nc3 Nbd7 as Nf6 is more important for black´s development than Nc3 for white. But 3...Nf6 4.dxe5 is a little better for white. (g) should not bother you, what do you play against 2...Qe7?. (h) is an unsound but dangerous gambit.
I don´t know the 3...exd4 lines very well (as I play 3.Nc3 , see above), maybe someone else can help you!?
(c) seems to be the modern main line and is played by GM Bacrot.

Against 1.e4 e5 2.d3 a natural development with Nf6/Nc6/d5/Bc5/a5/0-0/Re8 is good for black, a sharper try is 2...Nc6 and 3...f5 .

I hope this was a helpfully first introduction!?

tracke


  
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