Exchanging the entire Dutch family for a Sicilian one (1.Nf3 d6 2.e4 c5) and a French one (1.Nf3 e6 2.e4 d5) and a Jugoslav one (1.Nf3 d6 2.e4 Nf6) has its disadvantages for White. Are you that scared for Dutch(wo)men?

Is 1. Nf3, f5 2. d3, d5 not an option?

Quote:


Stefan Kindermann's useful articles are still available at

http://chessgate.de/training/training_kindermann/training_kindermann.html

Didn't TalJechin post some analysis regarding:
1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4 e6 4.c4 Qe7!?
last week?

Where did this interesting post go? Have I been dreaming? Is it in another thread?

Finally when I had some time to check his analysis the post was gone.... 

Quote:

I seem to recall that Kindermann actually published the analysis of a game that convinced him that it's not good on the training pages of the (German) chessgate website or so I seem to recall (I could be confusing that with some of his other interesting analysed games), but I cannot find Kindermann's training section there at the moment (I think they migrated to a new website, maybe that content got lost?).

I received the english edition of Kindermann's book today. Although I haven't analysed the position after 9.Bf4 extensively, my feeling is that Kindermann and Geof has a good point. Black is uncomfortable in this position. Since I  plan to play the Najdorf Sicilian, I can use the 1...d6 move order. Still, can a move like 2.d3 really be that good?

This is a very interesting thread.  While I agree in principle that after 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Black should have a satisfactory response, it's rather hard to find a specific  line for Black.  A few comments on MNb's suggested lines for Black after 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 d6 3.e4 e5 4.Nc3:

(A) If 4...Nf6 5.exf5 Bxf5 6.d4 e4 7.Nh4 Bg4, then 8.Be2 Bxe2 9.Qxe2 d5 10.Qb5+ Nc6 11.Bg5 Bb4  12.Qxb7 Nxd4 has occured in several games, including a game that GM Kindermann lost with Black.  After 13.Bxf6! gxf6 14.0-0 (I don't think 14.0-0-0 is so convincing because of 14...Bxc3 15.bxc3 Rb8 16.Qxa7 Ne2+ 17.Kd2 Nf4 and the position is a mess) 14...Bxb4 (what else? The Pd5 is hanging.)  15.bxc3 Ne2+ 16.Kh1 0-0 17.Rae1 Nf4 (17...Nxc3 is very risky because of 18.Qb3!, and after the apparently forced 18...f5 19.g3 Qf6 20.Re3 White seems to be winning) and after either 18.c4 or 18.g3 Black's position seems too loose, and I would think that White must be much better.  I would go so far as to say that after 9.Qxe2 Black may already be significantly worse.

(B) After 4...Nc6 5.exf5 Bxf5 6.d4 Nxd4 7.Nxd4 exd4 8.Qxd4 c6 9.Bf4, I agree with MNb that both 9...Bxc2 (risky, but hard to refute, particularly if the B retreats to f5 after it is attacked by Kd2 or Rc1) and 9...Qf6 are potentially satisfactory for Black.  However, after 9...Qf6 10.Qd2 0-0-0 11.0-0-0 my gut feeling is that Black, with his somewhat loose queenside and his difficulty in developing his pieces to effective squares, is probably going to be struggling to survive against correct play.  (Be3, Ne2 and Qa5 ideas for White look strong in many lines, for example.) And after 9...Bxc2 Black may be objectively okay, but it would probably take the defensive skills of a computer to demonstrate it over the board.  So I don't think either of these lines are entirely satisfactory from the perspective of an aggressive Dutch player.

Notwithstanding the above, and after spending some time looking at the various alternatives to MNb's suggested lines, I have not been able to improve on MNb 's line B above.  Also, I agree with the posts above that the 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 idea is probably just simply bad after 3.d4!.  So is line B above the best Black can hope for after 2.d3!?  I find it a little hard to believe that this could be true, although I'm not sure why.  If it is Black's best line, then it may be a reason to avoid 1...f5 against 1.Nf3, which would be somewhat problematic for many Dutch players.

I am wondering if anyone has any suggested improvements for Black, or any disagreements with my somewhat conclusory analysis above?  This seems to be a critical line for Dutch players.

       - Geof Strayer

Another problem with playing like a Stonewall is the misplaced Knight on c6 and White's abibility to develop his queen-bishop to f4 or g5.  Something like 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4 d5 4.Bf4 perhaps followed by e3, and c4 or maybe Bb5 looks uncormfortable for Black to me.