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Normal Topic C16: Strange line in the Winawer (Read 3707 times)
HgMan
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Re: Strange line in the Winawer
Reply #5 - 11/10/04 at 09:54:26
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This is something of a pet line of mine in correspondence chess, though I prefer 4...b6 to 4...Qd7.  After 5 a3 or 5 Qg4, the bishop races back to f8, but the ensuing position is more flexible than it appears.  The idea is to trade off Black's bad bishop with Ba6, and there are some interesting variations here.  M. Gurevich has played some interesting games in this line.  The queen does go to d7, and Black can generally manage a c7-c6-c5 advance to good effect, with the knight coming to c6.

In terms of move orders, I don't like 4...Qd7 at all, though.  It seems to force trading off Black's dark-squared bishop, which is typical in the Winawer, but maybe not best in these alternative lines...
  

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Tzanidakis_Michael
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Re: Strange line in the Winawer
Reply #4 - 10/31/04 at 08:16:50
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I didn't get the german part of your post but I got your point. Well in the Qd3 variation, which we are talking about, here is my opinion:
-the 10..f5 is not good. 10..f6 looks more logical in order to preserve the tention in the center. Now hite can attack on both flanks having a strong center.
-After 12..Nc6 and 13..O-O-O white can follow the theory by 14.a5 Nxa5 15.Rxa5 or to follow my plan with 14.Ba3 15.Bb4 16.a5. If black responds with Kb7 and axb6 then we can double on the b or c file preparing for a sacrificial attack and at the same time exploiting the absence of black pieces on the king side to gain some pawns. There are some variations I found out (especially if we exchange rooks on the a8 ) with Nxe6 and after Qxe6, Qxg7 and gaining either the c7 or g7 pawn. Anyway, my point here is that if black plays perfectly he can only hope to a draw, and what is the point of playing for just a draw if you play perfectly?  ???
  
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Re: Strange line in the Winawer
Reply #3 - 10/30/04 at 18:20:06
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Pachman, Moderne Schachtheorie, II Halboffene Spiele, 1983, page 39:
"Der Sinn des Damenzugs (4...Qd7) ist, nach 5.Qg4 den Punkt g7 mit f5 zu verteidigen. Neben c5 ist dies gegenwärtig die beliebteste Verteidigungsvariante im Nimzowitsch-System!"
Then Pachman gives games with Bronstein, Planinc, Keene, Forintos, Taimanov, Petrosjan and himself playing Black - not exactly ELO 1500 guys.

I have played it a few times myself, as timid play by White leads to a favourable endgame for Black. But indeed, with active play White can show that his lead in development counts.
9.Qd3 is more or less new to me; 9.Qg4 f5 10.Qh5+ 11.Qe2 Nb8 (here he is again) 12.a5 is also better for White according to my very old notes.
  

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Tzanidakis_Michael
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Re: Strange line in the Winawer
Reply #2 - 10/30/04 at 17:17:04
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Well even though I didn't know the variation with the Qd7, I do know the b6-plan and it's ideas. The strange about this variation is first on 9..Nb8 but mostly on 10..f5? and the plan with 11..Nc6 and 12..O-O-O. What is your opinion? I'm very interested in seeing if I'm the only one who is so pessimistic about black's chances even for a draw in this line.

Also something irrelevant: I remember when I wanted to find which variation to play in the French defense, I had thought of a system with a return Bf8 but I dismissed it as if white plays anyway Qg4 black will have to play either g6, Bg7 or Ne7, Ng6 which both are a bit passive. What do you believe?
  
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AmateurDragoneer
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Re: Strange line in the Winawer
Reply #1 - 10/30/04 at 16:25:21
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4. e5 Qd7 or 4...b6 (the two are interchangeable) is not an entirely unknown line in the Winawer. I have a clubmate who plays correspondence chess who used to specialize in this line before adopting the Gurgenidze Variation of the Caro-Kann. Anyway, the basic idea of the line is to simply play a quick ...Ba6 in order to exchange off the bad bishop. While it is a fairly simple line to play (thus the appeal for either weaker players or players who do not want to learn 15-20 moves of mian line French theory), the problem is that it takes a lot of time and white gets a serious lead in development. In addition, the kingside can also become very weak and white often plays an early Qg4 in order to force black to waste a move on something like either ...g6 or ...Bf8 (if I remember correctly, most players meet 5. a3 with 5...Bf8 to avoid having to play a weakening move such as ...f6 or ...g6 in response to an early Qg4). Overall, black basically ends up pushing pawns on both sides of the board (as in your game) which leaves his position full of holes and all he gets in return is the exchange of his light-squared bishop.
  
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Tzanidakis_Michael
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C16: Strange line in the Winawer
10/30/04 at 14:27:11
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In my last game (second game as white through the last 2,5 years!  Tongue ) I came across a very strange line in the winaver variation. As I said, I play white. The game went:

The symbols !, ?, !?, ?! are placed following my analysis and understanding.

1.e4 e6
2.d4 d5
3.Nc3 Bb4
4.e5 Qd7!? (Here I entered unknown territorry,as I usually learn the main variations and ideas of an opening and leave the rest up to my understanding to being figured out Smiley )
5.a3 Bxc3
6.bxc3 b6
7.a4!
(Very strong, positional move certainly deserves an "!" as it provokes queen from coming on the a4 and also clears a3 for the bishop.Finally guards b5)
7..Ba6
8.Bxa6 Nxa6
9.Qd3!? Nb8
(I expected 9..Qc8 in order to follow c5 and Nc7. Not sure though if it is better than Nb8 in the long run)
10.Qg3 f5? 
(The worse move in the game in my mind. Weakens permanently e6 and forfeits of every pressure on the white center.I expected 10..f6.I hadn't checked if it was playable but if it was not even 10..g6??! would be better)
11.Ne2 h6?
(after this move every single black move deserves a question mark)
12.h4 Nc6
13.Nf4 o-o-o
14.Ba3 Qf7
15.Qg6 Qxg6
16.Nxg6 Rh7
17.Nf8 Rh8
18.Nxe6 Re8 1-0 Black resigns

My opponent was obviously very weak and I crushed him in only 10 mins. Anyway, I opened Fritz 8 to check some variations I had in mind, like 15.Bb4 going for 16.a5 or 15.a5 immediately, and also to check how correct were my evaluations. I was once again surpised from discovering that some crazy looking moves in a game were actually opening theory! Actually the game was pure opening theory until 11.Ne2 where instead of 11..h6? the theory suggested 11..Nc6 following, 12..O-O-O as it was the continuation of our game. Anyway, I could not believe my eyes and I played this variation against Fritz 8 going for the attack I had in my mind (Bb4, a5) and it gave a +/- 1.15 on move 14 (two moves off his opening book). 
Does anybody know this variation? By whom was played and if there is any point of playing it as black? Literally, I think that the one that played those moves as black should be around 1500 at most!
« Last Edit: 08/03/11 at 20:21:37 by dom »  
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