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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5 (Read 7359 times)
Markovich
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #14 - 03/01/05 at 17:06:27
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Many Thanks Markovich, the 5. dxe5 line is a problem for me too.

But what about the simple 9. Qd4( instead of Qb3 or Bg5?



Well I am just looking at it in my head, but doesn't 9. Qd4 Bxf3  10. Bxf3 c6 just transpose into my first line (where 7. Qd4 was played)?  White's e-pawn is weak.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #13 - 02/15/05 at 13:02:44
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What about the following attempt for white: 5...Bg4 6.c4!? Nb4 7.Qb3! Bxf3   

[7...N8c6 8.Be3 a5 (8...Bf5 9.Na3 e6 10.Rd1 is unpleasant for Black but deserves a second look; 8...Qd7 9.a3 Bxf3 10.gxf3 transposes to 7...Bxf3) 9.a3 a4 (9...Nxe5 10.axb4 Nxf3+ 11.gxf3 Bxf3 12.Rg1 axb4 13.Rxa8 Qxa8 and White looks much better) 10.Qc3 Nxe5 11.Nbd2 Nbd3+ 12.Bxd3 Nxd3+ 13.Ke2 Bf5 14.Nh4! Bg4 15.f3 +/-]

8.gxf3 N8c6 (8...a5 9.a3 N4c6 10.Qxb7 Ra6 11.Be3 Nxe5 12.Nc3) 9.Be3 (protects d4) 9...Qd7 (9...e6 10.a3 Nxe5 11.axb4 Nxf3+ 12.Ke2) 10.a3 Nxe5 11.axb4 Nxf3+ 12.Ke2 Qg4 13.Qa4+ c6 14.Nd2 is complex and interesting, but I believe Black's compensation is far from sufficient +/-.

Now I don't know how Black could equalize with the active 5...Bg4. Do you see an improvement for Black? I still think I missed something easy.
  
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Roy Bean
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #12 - 02/11/05 at 18:24:30
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Many Thanks Markovich, the 5. dxe5 line is a problem for me too.

But what about the simple 9. Qd4( instead of Qb3 or Bg5?

  
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Markovich
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #11 - 01/17/05 at 12:39:25
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Returning to this thread, and inspired by the thread on underrated Alekhine lines - after 5. dxe5 Bg4 6 Be2 Nc6 (as given by SDO apparently and also as in Pinter-Palliser). Both SDO and Pinter went for c4 ideas, but 7 c3 is the position in the Kupreichik game from the other thread, arising from the 4 Be2 line. This is - IMHO - quite annoying for Black. I must say that it's not so clear to me at all how Black ought to meet 5 dxe5. I do wonder if it's really a bad move after all, although it looks as though it ought to be, somehow.


Well, it is fairly clear to me how Black should meet 5. dxe5.  He must play on the basis that White's e5 pawn is weak:  5...Bg4  6. Be2 and now, in my view, 6...e6 is significantly more flexible than 6...Nc6.   

A key theme for Black is to bring his d5 knight to g6 via e7, for example, 7. Qd4 Bxf3  8. Bxf3 c6  9. O-O (9. Nd2 Qb6) 9...Nd7  10. c4 Ne7! =+.   This is analogous to 5...Bg4  6. Be2 c6, a line discussed at some length in Burgess's "The Complete Alekhine."

For another example, 7. O-O Nd7 (Black wants to be able to play ...c6 so that his queen can attack White's e-pawn) 8. c4 Ne7! and Black meets both 9. Bg5 and 9. Qb3 with 9...Qb8!.  It may be equal, but Black has play for a win.

7. c4 Nb4 is fine for Black.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #10 - 01/14/05 at 23:08:56
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Returning to this thread, and inspired by the thread on underrated Alekhine lines - after 5. dxe5 Bg4 6 Be2 Nc6 (as given by SDO apparently and also as in Pinter-Palliser). Both SDO and Pinter went for c4 ideas, but 7 c3 is the position in the Kupreichik game from the other thread, arising from the 4 Be2 line. This is - IMHO - quite annoying for Black. I must say that it's not so clear to me at all how Black ought to meet 5 dxe5. I do wonder if it's really a bad move after all, although it looks as though it ought to be, somehow.


Yes I agree! The e5 pawn is terribly annoying in the c3 line, it seems to split Black's army into two. White can simply follow Nimzowitsch's dictum and over-protect that pawn many times over.   

And unlike the 2 c3 Nf6 line of the sicilian, here Black does not even have an open c file to play with!  Undecided
  
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John Cox
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #9 - 01/14/05 at 13:12:23
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Returning to this thread, and inspired by the thread on underrated Alekhine lines - after 5. dxe5 Bg4 6 Be2 Nc6 (as given by SDO apparently and also as in Pinter-Palliser). Both SDO and Pinter went for c4 ideas, but 7 c3 is the position in the Kupreichik game from the other thread, arising from the 4 Be2 line. This is - IMHO - quite annoying for Black. I must say that it's not so clear to me at all how Black ought to meet 5 dxe5. I do wonder if it's really a bad move after all, although it looks as though it ought to be, somehow.
  
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #8 - 11/12/04 at 02:48:09
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5 dxe5 isn't anything to worry about, but deserves a bit of coverage! That event for me was just a nightmare - two round a day international events should not be allowed!
In the Jackova game, she played very creatively, but Black was definitely much better until I ridiculously went in for a long forcing line, returning the extra rook only not to have a mate! The Pinter fiasco was just as embarrassing; Black quickly gains an edge, rejects a draw and then plays like a man so tired he should be asleep!


Hello Richard. I really liked your book! I hope you'll write more often.

I agree the Pinter game is a fiasco. But in the Jackova game where could you have improved from 10.0-0 onwards? It didn't appear from a superficial glance that Black was "definitely much better". 

And also what if White simply goes 10. Na3 defending c2 pawn? You still have problems castling no? Or would you head for the queenside instead?

  
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #7 - 11/11/04 at 10:17:10
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Best not to worry about it.  I blew a chance at British Ch qualification this year because I lost a stupid last round game after being ground down in a long game by a GM in the morning (having foolishly got into the position of being in the joint lead going into the last day ...).  I sulked for a bit after that but have started the new season with a couple of good wins Smiley
  
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #6 - 11/11/04 at 08:55:00
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5 dxe5 isn't anything to worry about, but deserves a bit of coverage! That event for me was just a nightmare - two round a day international events should not be allowed!
In the Jackova game, she played very creatively, but Black was definitely much better until I ridiculously went in for a long forcing line, returning the extra rook only not to have a mate! The Pinter fiasco was just as embarrassing; Black quickly gains an edge, rejects a draw and then plays like a man so tired he should be asleep!
  
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John Cox
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #5 - 11/10/04 at 14:40:06
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Richard tells me he was winning in the first game as well, so perhaps I owe him an apology!
  
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #4 - 11/08/04 at 05:19:39
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oh well, i suppose such harmless but boring lines exist in every opening. I look forward to your new book anyway! (have already placed reservations at my local book store for it)  Smiley

After looking at this game Black seems to have gotten abit of a pull. But White didn't play very well imho. The opening doesn't look like one to write home about! For both sides!

[Event "Giessen op"]
[Site "Giessen"]
[Date "1994.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Chandler,Patrick"]
[Black "Bagirov,Vladimir"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B04"]
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 dxe5 5.dxe5 Bg4 6.c4 Nb4 7.Qxd8+ Kxd8 8.Na3 e6 
9.Ng5 Ke8 10.Be2 Bf5 11.0-0 N8c6 12.Nf3 a6 13.Bd2 Rd8 14.Bc3 Bc5 15.Bd1 Ke7 16.Ba4 h6 
17.h3 g5 18.Nb1 Bd3 19.Rc1 Be2 20.Ne1 Nd4 21.a3 Nd3 22.Nxd3 Bxd3 23.Bd1 Ne2+ 24.Bxe2 Bxe2 
25.b4 Bd4 26.c5 Rd5 27.Bxd4 Rxd4 28.Nc3 Bd3 29.Re1 Rhd8 30.Re3 a5 31.Rd1 axb4 32.axb4 Bg6 
33.Ra1 Rxb4 34.Ra7 Kd7 35.Re1 Kc6 36.Na4 Rd2 0-1

  
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #3 - 11/07/04 at 18:44:16
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I tend to agree that 5.dxe5 is under-represented in theoretical works - including mine, IIRC - and will probably be quite common at club level.

In Richard's two games, in the first one the usual plan is ...Nd7..c6...Qc7 and perhaps ...Ne7-f5 (and/or ...h5...h4...Rh5 at some convenient moment). It looks to me (on a very superficial glance) as though 8...Nc6 allowing 9 Bb5 was already questionable. As MnB says, this is an old variation of the 4...Bg4 line. In the second game evidently Black was doing very well out of the opening with his ...Bf5 instead of SDO's...Bxf3, but seems to have lost the exchange randomly in the middlegame for no discernible reason.

I would have thought Black was fine after 6 c4 Nb4 7 Qxd8+ Kxd8. I'm not saying this position-type is terribly thrilling, but aren't the twin threats of ...Nc2+ and Bxf3 quite annoying for White?
  
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #2 - 11/07/04 at 06:11:35
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I faced a number of players who play 6. c4 (after 5... Bg4) and after the queen swap Black is solid but not completely comfortable... am i missing something here?

  
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Re: Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
Reply #1 - 11/02/04 at 20:57:09
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In such cases I rely on that fat, heavy encyclopedia of this opening, written by Siebenhaar, Delnef and Ottstadt. They have everything up to March 1989. In part II (670 pages) they give 5.dxe5 Bg4
A) 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 e6 with a transposition to the so called Panov Attack 4...Bg4 5.h3 Bxf3 6.Qxf3 dxe5 7.dxe5 e6 when 8.Qg3 Nd7 9.Be2 (9.a3 h5 10.Nbd2 h4) c6 10.Na3 is the game Boleslavsky-Mikenas, Moscow 1940 and SDO give the improvement Qa5+ 11.Bd2 Bb4.
B) 6.Be2 Nc6 transposes to 3.d4 d6 4.Be2 dxe5 5.dxe5 Nc6 6.Nf3 Bg4 when 7.o-o e6 8.c4 Nb6 9.Nbd2 Be7 10.h3 Bxf3 11.Nxf3 o-o is equal according to SDO.
I am certainly not an Alekhine expert, but still hope that these quotations offer a little help.
  
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Alekhine 4. Nf3 dxe5 5. dxe5
11/02/04 at 09:49:25
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I've been so inspired recently by the recent discusssions on the Alekhine here that I've decided to take it up myself. (I am a 2000-2100 rated Caro diehard who regularly faces 2000-2200 opposition)

I went to buy Davies' book which seems to be the only widely available one (at least until John Cox's book hits the market). 

Many opponents of mine play 5. dxe5 after 4. Nf3 dxe5. 5. Nxe5 is the theoretical 'best' move. I think my opponents don't know any theory on the Alekhine at all (which is good i suppose).

But right now I don't know much myself either. So what does Black play after 5. dxe5? It seems not so easy to equalise from the few blitz games I tried on the internet and I wonder why Davies doesn't even give this move a mention! It certainly looks obvious enough to be very common at club level.

What's the prescribed antidotE?

I look up the database... only to see Palliser losing TWICE recently after 5. dxe5. Clearly 5. dxe5 isn't stupid??

[Event "Specsavers YM 14th"]
[Site "Millfield School"]
[Date "2004.07.19"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Jackova,Jana"]
[Black "Palliser,Richard"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B05"]
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 dxe5 5.dxe5 Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 e6 8.Qg3 Nc6 
9.Bb5 Ndb4 10.0-0 Nxc2 11.Bg5 Be7 12.Bxc6+ bxc6 13.Bxe7 Kxe7 14.Nc3 Nxa1 15.Qxg7 Rg8 16.Qf6+ Ke8 
17.Qf3 Nc2 18.Qxc6+ Kf8 19.Rd1 Qb8 20.Rd7 Rg7 21.a3 Ne1 22.g3 Rg6 23.Nb5 Kg7 24.Nxc7 Qxb2 
25.Qxa8 Qe2 26.Ne8+ Kh6 27.Rxf7 Qd1 28.Kh2  1-0

[Event "Specsavers YM 14th"]
[Site "Millfield School"]
[Date "2004.07.19"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Pinter,Gabor"]
[Black "Palliser,Richard"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B04"]
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 dxe5 5.dxe5 Bg4 6.Be2 Nc6 7.0-0 e6 8.c4 Nb6 
9.Nbd2 Be7 10.h3 Bf5 11.a3 Nd7 12.Qb3 Nc5 13.Qc3 Bd3 14.Re1 Bxe2 15.Rxe2 Qd3 16.Qxd3 Nxd3 
17.b4 0-0-0 18.Nf1 Nd4 19.Nxd4 Rxd4 20.c5 Rhd8 21.Bd2 R8d5 22.g3 Rc4 23.Ne3 Rxe5 24.Kf1 Rxe3 
25.Bxe3 Bf6 26.Rd1 Nb2 27.Rb1 Na4 28.Rc1 Rxc1+ 29.Bxc1 Kd7 30.Re4 a6 31.g4 h6 32.Rf4 Ke7 
33.Ke2 e5 34.Rc4 Ke6 35.Kd3 Kd5 36.f3 Bh4 37.Rc2 Be1 38.Bd2 Bg3 39.Be3 Be1 40.Bd2 Bg3 
41.Be3 Be1 42.Bf2 Bxf2 43.Rxf2 g6 44.Rd2 b6 45.Kc2+ Kc4 46.Rd7 bxc5 47.Rxc7 f5 48.Rc6 e4 
49.fxe4 fxg4 50.hxg4 h5 51.g5  1-0


Some opinions from the experts here are welcome!

Thanks in advance.
  
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