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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C27-C30: Vienna, is this line so bad? (Read 16725 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #30 - 06/13/08 at 10:32:23
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TopNotch, when you gave that name: "Mirumian", I was a bit curious, then I looked at chesslive, in 21 games with 1.e4 e5, it's true that he lost only one time, the first game recorded of him, when he was U16! "Incredible" score of 16,5/21 (78,57%) with a supposed ~ theorically harmless. But it's true that against players of the same level or less, there is no reason to be worse and lose with that opening.
  
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #29 - 06/08/08 at 10:38:50
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Hi,
    Busted is maybe to strong a comment  Wink I am not claiming any pluses for white and everything is relative to what level you play at ... I tend to play it as follows 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Bc5 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 0-0 5.f4 exf4 6.Bxf4 c6 7.d4 Bb4 8.e5 Ne4 [8...d5 9.exf6 dxc4 10.fxg7 Re8+ 11.Kf2] 9.Nge2

One game I have in my database is:

Rhenius,R - Unseld,Rolf [C27]
Baden-Baden op Baden-Baden (7), 1987

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 0-0 5.f4 exf4 6.Bxf4 c6 7.d4 Bb4 8.e5 Ne4 9.Nge2 Bxc3+ 10.Nxc3 Ng5 11.Qh5 Ne6 12.Be3 d5 13.exd6 Qxd6 14.0-0-0 Nf4 15.Qf3 Ng6 16.Ne4 Qb4 17.Bb3 a5 18.a3 Qb5 19.Nd6 Nh4 20.Qf2 Qh5 21.Nxc8 Rxc8 22.g4 Qxg4 23.Qxf7+ Kh8 24.Be6 Qe4 25.Bxc8 Qxe3+ 26.Kb1 h6 27.Rhg1 g5 28.Rge1 1-0

Regards
  
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MNb
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #28 - 06/07/08 at 20:07:47
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Quote:
While it's true that variations with 5.Bg5 and 5.Nf3 are not quite as much fun, they don't really look that threatening to Black either.

Still a good reason to prefer 4...c6 intending to transpose after 4...0-0.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #27 - 06/07/08 at 17:24:29
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TopNotch wrote on 11/16/04 at 20:03:25:
Yes its really me, your friendly neighbourhood Top just passing through.  Grin

I am sad to report to BigBen that this whole Vienna topic maybe moot, as the valiant attempt to enter a KGD via the Vienna Game has more or less been busted. Cry

What follows now is a copy of what I posted on the forum in another thread a few months ago that relates to the same topic. I trust it will prove enlightening.

Quote:    

I noticed a few of you making reference to the line: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 as a favorable way to transpose to the Kings Gambit Declined for white. I am afraid this is no longer the case.  

While we are still on the topic of the Bishop's Opening, it gives me an excuse to show a line for black which is not considered by GM John Emms, in his recent and popular repertoire book 'Attacking with 1.e4'. In this book GM Emms recommends the Bishop's Opening, with the idea of using it to reach certain lines of the Kings Gambit declined, however the following obscure line in my opinion puts Emms proposed system out of business. Here is the key game, in which black a GM and reknowned Bishop's opening specialist himself, demolishes his unsuspecting opponent:

[Event "Nordic Championships"]
[Site "Bergen NOR"]
[Date "2001.??.??"]
[White "Miellet Bensan,Y"]
[Black "Mitkov,N"]
[Round "7"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2243"]
[BlackElo "2547"]
[ECO "C25"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Bc5 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 O-O! [This is the first important idea, black makes ready to play a quick Re8 should white open the position too quickly]  

5. f4?! [White does not care, he will stick to his predetermined mode of development come what may. Inflexibiilty in chess can be a fatal desease]

5...exf4 6. Bxf4 c6! [This is the second important idea, and the reason why black ommitted Nc6 earlier in favor of castles. Black makes ready to open up the centre quickly while the white king still resides there]

7. Bb3 [Anticipating the central advance, but it doesn't deter black in the least] d5! [Already black is better] 8. d4 Bb4 9. e5 Ne4 10. Qf3 Qh4+ 11. g3 Qg4 12. Qxg4 Bxg4 13. h3 Be6 14. Nge2 a5 15. a3 Bxc3+ 16. Nxc3 Nxc3 17. bxc3 a4 18. Ba2 Nd7 19. Rb1 b5 20. Kd2 f6 21. exf6 Nxf6 22. Rbe1 Rae8 23. Kc1 Bf5 24. Be5 Ne4 25. g4
Bg6 26. h4 h6 0-1  

White decided to call it a day and perhaps some would say prematurely, but I think resignation is probably the strongest move in this position  considering that white is virtually a piece down as that bishop buried on a2 will never again see the light of day.

I must confess that I used to play this system for white, but the above move order means that he has to change plans. The KGD transpositional idea of f4 in the above line simply rebounds on white. I showed the above idea to GM Larry Chritiansen on WCN and he too was unable to find a solution for white if he goes 5.f4.

So it would seem that I have now armed forum users with a lethal weapon against practitioners of GM John Emms recommended and popular repertoire.

Happy hunting

Top  Grin

Postscript: Before I go, the discerning readers among you would have noticed that the exact line in question maybe reached via the Vienna or Bishop's Opening move order and in this particular case these moves canbe interchanged.      

I really do spoil you guys don't I, well I guess I'm just bad at keeping secrets. Wink


I wrote the above almost four years ago, which was not too well received by some in this thread, nevertheless I'm am quite pleased to report that John Emms in his 2008 1.e4 e5 Dangerous Weapons book acknowledges the effectiveness of this line for Black in a chapter entitled: Fighting the Pseudo King's Gambiteers

Here is Emms conclusion at the end of that chapter:

" It seems to me that 3...Bc5 followed by 4...0-0 is a promising way for Black to play, especially from a practical viewpoint, given that 5.f4 has been White's most popular response. In that case I think the plan of exf4 followed by a quick ...c6 and ...d5 assures Black of good counterplay. While it's true that variations with 5.Bg5 and 5.Nf3 are not quite as much fun, they don't really look that threatening to Black either.

Earlier f2-f4 ideas are rare and some of the variations are very interesting, but this also looks okay for Black. And finally, answering [I suspect that should have been 'following' - Toppy]   3...Bc5 with 4...c6 is a worth-while alternative which in practice has discouraged White from playing f2-f4." End quote.

Talk about deja vu, and I must say that its most satisfying to be vindicated in print by none other than the author of Attacking with 1.e4 himself, John Emms.

Peace and Love,

Toppy Smiley



  

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BigBen
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #26 - 02/14/05 at 13:41:11
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Hi, I noticed Gary Lane in his latest column over at www.chesscafe.com mentions the line we were looking at ...

Thomas Aberlenc-Bjaarne Winkel Internet 2004
1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Bc5 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 d3 d6 5 f4 Ng4 6 f5 Nf2
A casual spectator might think White is in trouble, but it has all been seen before and Black must suffer in the long-term. 7 Qh5 It is always good news to threaten checkmate in the opening. 7...g6 Black is obliged to go on the defensive. Other moves have been tested to avoid mate: a) 7...Qd7 8 Be6! (the Englishman is happy to attack and this key move demonstrates that the black queen is not a good defender) 8...Qe7 9 Nd5 g6 (9...Qf8 is met by 10 Bxc8 which is hopeless for Black) 10 Qh6 Qf8 11 Bxc8 Nxh1 12 Bxb7 Bxg1 13 Bxa8 Kd7 14 Qxf8 Rxf8 15 Bh6 intending Kd2 to attack the pieces on the first rank, 1–0 J.Emms-A.Jackson, Port Erin 1999. b) 7...0–0 8 Bg5 Qe8 9 Nd5 Qc6 (9...Nxh1 runs into 10 Nf6+ gxf6 11 Bxf6 with a forced mate) 10 Ne7+ wins easily, D.Leo-S.Rahman, Asian Junior Championships, Singapore 2004. 8 Qh6 Nxh1 Well, the capture of the rook must be the ultimate test of this variation. Other moves:  a) 8...Nd7 9 Qg7 (9 Bg5! looks like an instant knockout in view of 9...f6 10 fxg6 fxg5 11 Bf7+ Ke7 12 Nd5 mate) 9...Qf6 10 Bxf7+ Qxf7 11 Qxh8+ Nf8 12 Nf3 Nxh1 13 Ng5 led to a winning advantage, V.Kastner-V.Pekar, Lilie Litomysl 2003. b) 8...Kd7 9 Qg7 Nxh1 10 Qxf7+ Qe7 11 Be6+ Kd8 12 Qxe7+ Kxe7 13 Nd5+ Ke8 (13...Kd8 14 Bg5+ Ke8 15 Nxc7+ is great) 14 Bxc8 is better for White. c) 8...d5 9 Nxd5 (9 Bg5 also looks strong in view of 9...f6 10 Nxd5 fxg5 11 Qg7 Rf8 12 Nxc7+ and Black can resign) 9...Bf8 10 Qg5 Qxg5 11 Bxg5 Nxh1 12 Nxc7+ Kd7 13 Nxa8 h6 14 Bf6 Rh7 15 Bxe5 (or 15 fxg6 fxg6 16 Nf3 wins) 15...Nc6 16 Bb5 (16 Nf3 to activate the pieces is White’s best choice to speed up victory) 16...Bc5 17 Nh3 a6 18 Bxc6+ Kxc6 19 Nc7 gxf5 20 d4 Bb6 21 Nd5 fxe4 22 Ne7+ Kd7 23 Nxc8 Kxc8 24 Ke2 1–0 K.Kurylonek-P.Kaminska, Augustow 1996.

I dont agree with what Gary said after the moves 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.Qh6 Kd7 9.Qg7 he now gives 9... Nh1?? but I think we already looked at what I think is a much better move 9 ... Qf8!   

Maybe Gary will pop in shoot the line down in flames  which is highly likely lol  Grin

Regards

  
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BigBen
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #25 - 11/19/04 at 12:42:37
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Come on chaps keep the fighting clean  Grin chess is only a game and no one died from it ... I think ... Yet  Wink

Regards
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #24 - 11/19/04 at 10:54:38
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To TopNotch,

No, like your's I presume, English is not my first langauge.  Wink
Your incessant proliferation of your English proficiency is getting a bit tiresome. I guess that's why you've taken to putting down other people's language skills. I would suggest you flaunt your vocabulary elsewhere.
Still, I shall try to reply in English, if you prefer another language, let me know:
1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Bc5 Yes it is english, but in my mother tongue (and indeed in German and a few other languages) it would be 1.e4 e5 2.Sc3 Lc5. Not much to misunderstand or comprehend here. Unless Bc5 suddenly means "knight to f6" or Nc3 means "bishop to c4". Perhaps TopNotch should revert to descriptive notation so he avoids any embarrasing scenes of being misinterpreted in the future.
I do try to be careful with move-orders when I put forward certain games as refuting lines that come form entirely different move-orders. So I reserve the right to question move-orders given in games which are put forward as absolute proof of the playability of positions reached later in the game (i.e. if Mitkov is such an expert in this line, how come he chose the inaccurate move-order 2...Bc5 ?).
As for the King's Gambit, I (again) shall make it as succinct as possible: I would advice you to read the conclusion given in New In Chess Yearbook 72, regarding the viability of the line 5...Nf6 6.Bc4.
The main problem in the Kieseritzky is not 5...Nf6 but the drawing lines after 5...d6.
How sad that you, of all people, in desperate need of a cheap shot should resort to implying a deliberate attempt to conceal the connection between Dragonslayer (at least you can check MY record and verify that my handle is not pulled from thin air) and M.Jensen. I am sure everone else here has no problem remembering that they are the same person.
Anyway if you were to read what I have writtten perhaps you could appreciate that from a theoretical point of view I prefer the bishop's gambit with 3.Bc4 or the Quaade gambit with 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3. From a practical perspective I am still making a killing off the Kieseritzky.
See, I too can manage to produce a very long, polemical reply without any moves or concrete variations whatsoever, sure feels nice  Grin
Now I just need to learn how to include scores of database games to confuse and dilute the issue.
Here is one: 1.e4 e5 2.f4! Qh4+ 3.g3 d6 4.gxh4 1-0 q.e.d.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #23 - 11/17/04 at 23:54:34
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For Mnb's sake 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3  Bb4 5.Nge2! the exclam is primarily because I think this is the only way to fight for advantage here.  Grin

In general I would recommend one study Mitkov's games because until recently he played this Bishop/Vienna Complex almost exclusively, and all in all very successfully. However in the exact position given above after 5.Nge2, I would suggest you play over Mirumian's games as he has close to a 100% score from that position with White. Mirumian's interpretation of the line is quite interesting and at the same time very dangerous for black, I highly recommend it.

Top  Grin  
  

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MNb
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #22 - 11/17/04 at 22:47:46
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After 5.Nge2 Mitkov won 2 games, lost 2 and drew 4. The KG - disapproved by TopNotch - scores better on that level. OK, statistics do not say too much, but to claim 5.Nge2! is a bit premature.
For the sake of clarity: DragonSlayer, TopNotch and I all three agree, that Black the Bishop's game 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #21 - 11/17/04 at 22:28:01
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In my opinion white can still fight for an Opening advantage against: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3  Bb4 5.Nge2! (not 5.Bg5) The position after 5.Nge2 is quite interesting, the games of V. Mirumian and in particular N. Mitkov being particularly noteworthy for White. Mitkov without a doubt is one of the World's foremost specialist in these Bishops/Vienna complexes and his games in these lines are well worth careful study.

The other line 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 Na5! is an efficient equaliser for black, and I have not found a convincing way to fight for an Opening advantage against it. Having said that, the resulting positions while balanced if black plays well, still contain enough fight to allow adequate winning chances for the enterprising player.

Top  Grin
  

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MNb
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #20 - 11/17/04 at 22:13:54
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<Don't shoot the messenger if u don't like the message.>
Only if the messenger twists the message.

<some high level games>
After 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 o-o 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bg5 I have found only two games with one player rated ELO 2300+. Both were won by White.
More or less related games were played and won by Beljavsky and Chmelniker (both with an early Re8) - against White players who were at least 200 ELO points down.
So far TopNotch's proof from high level practice.
  

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MNb
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #19 - 11/17/04 at 22:08:16
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It is even worse. After 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nc3 both Na5 and Bb4 are stronger than Bc5.
Only 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 d6?! 5.f4 remains as a transposition and we are exactly at BigBen's initial post.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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TopNotch
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #18 - 11/17/04 at 22:07:56
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The problem is that when I post stuff, some of u jump to conclusions rather than reading carefully and trying to understand and digest what was said.  Grin

Firstly it is MNB who thinks the following move order is the more precise: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 c6.
I on the otherhand am not sure I share this belief, nor do I wish to re-state the pros and cons of the two move orders at this time, namely 4...c6 vs 4....0-0. Those interested can check my source post for that.

Regarding DragonSlayer, I wonder if English is his first language as he seems unable to comprehend it very well, so let me break it down further.

The Vienna line u cite: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Bc5? 3.f4 does not rearm Vienna practitioners as DS claims since this is not the most critical or popular line. The line that Vienna players need concern themselves with is 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 and only now 3...Bc5! 4.d3 (4.f4?! is well met by 4..Nxe4!) 0-0! now if 4.f4 is well met by 4...exf4 and c6 as stated in my previous post. MNB claims and advantage with the alternative plan of 4.Nf3 and Bg5, I don't neccessarily agree with this assertion either, as some high level games have already shown that black is more than fine here as well.

The babble that DragonSlayer was so quick to accuse me of was simply to emphasise that even though the main game I gave arose from the Bishops opening, the critical position reached was in fact the same. Both move orders have their pros and cons but whether u choose a Vienna or Bishop's Opening move order the fact remains that the line I gave cannot be avoided. Attempting to reach the ideal posotion via 1e4 e5 2.f4? has a plethora of other problems as well when one considers that the Kings Gambit is to put it mildly under a very thick cloud as DragonSlayer himself reported in NIC Yearbook#72 (At least I think it was him.  Undecided) . Funnily enough, if memory serves correctly, the same DragonSlayer sung a completely different tune on the KingsGambit thread. Glad to see that you have come to your senses and admitted the error of your ways. Wink

Well I think I said pretty much all I wanted to for now.....ohhh yeah, one last thing. Don't shoot the messenger if u don't like the message.

Over n Out.

Top  Grin

PostScript: Just so there is no confusion, this particular Vienna/Bishops Opening/KGD line is very pleasant for black if met by the line I gave. If one must play the Vienna then I would recommend the 3.g3 line, as this is somewhat underrated by theory, easy to play, and contrary to what the books say complete equality is not so easy to achieve.
  

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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #17 - 11/17/04 at 09:39:40
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Quote:
I am sad to report to BigBen that this whole Vienna topic maybe moot, as the valiant attempt to enter a KGD via the Vienna Game has more or less been busted. Cry

snipped

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Bc5 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 O-O! [This is the first important idea, black makes ready to play a quick Re8 should white open the position too quickly]  




Ok let's rearm the Vienna practitioners.
1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Bc5 3.f4! transposes directly to the KG declined. This move-order is given is just about any good book on the Vienna, e.g. "The Complete Vienna" by Tseitling & Glazkov, Batsford 1995.

The question of how to arrive in the tabiya position: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 d6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.d3 without actually allowing ...exf4 is one of the great opening conundrums. The late Weaver W. Adams was a big expert on this position but never found the straight road to this "won" position.
One really has to be careful with move-orders here, something TopNotch failed to do, giving two different openings and some babble about interchanging moves.

From the Vienna, the position can be reached via 2.Nc3 Nf6 (or 2...Bc5?! 3.f4! shows why the moves cannot always be interchanged) 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 Nc6 5.f4 d6 6.Nf3
But Black can frustrate us with 2...Nf6 3.Bc4 3...Nxe4; 2....Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 or indeed 2...Nf6! (clearlt the correct move here) 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 c6 as pointed out by MNb.

From the Bishop's opening the position can be reached via: 2.Bc4 Nf6 (likewise, here 2...Bc5 is not the precise move-order) 3.d3 (3.Nc3 is the Vienna) Nc6 4.Nc3 Bc5 5.f4 d6 6.Nf3.
Again Black can deny us this with 3...c6! or 3...Bc5 4.Nc3 c6 (transposing to the Vienna line mentioned by MNb)

Sadly, I think the reason Weaver Adams never found the road is because there is none! In fact the only good road to the position is 2.f4! and crossing your fingers that Black will play 2...Bc5?!
  
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MNb
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #16 - 11/16/04 at 21:01:57
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As all too often our dear TopNotch is imprecise and incomplete. In that very same thread we already came to the conclusion that 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 o-o?! is answered with 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bg5! with good attacking chances for White. Therefore the correct move order is 4...c6! with the same idea - and the credit for this indeed goes to TN - 5.f4?! exf4 6.Bxf4 o-o! The difference is that the setup 5.Nf3 and 6.Bg5 is less strong.

And if I may quote myself:
< It seems wiser for Black, to play 4...c6 (in stead of d6) with the idea 5.f4 exf4 6.Bxf4 d5 7.exd5 o-o as TopNotch once pointed out>
Posted on: 11/08/04 at 21:31:11 in this thread.
I have no comment on TN's reading abilities.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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