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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C27-C30: Vienna, is this line so bad? (Read 18167 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #15 - 11/16/04 at 20:03:25
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Yes its really me, your friendly neighbourhood Top just passing through.  Grin

I am sad to report to BigBen that this whole Vienna topic maybe moot, as the valiant attempt to enter a KGD via the Vienna Game has more or less been busted. Cry

What follows now is a copy of what I posted on the forum in another thread a few months ago that relates to the same topic. I trust it will prove enlightening.

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I noticed a few of you making reference to the line: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 as a favorable way to transpose to the Kings Gambit Declined for white. I am afraid this is no longer the case. 

While we are still on the topic of the Bishop's Opening, it gives me an excuse to show a line for black which is not considered by GM John Emms, in his recent and popular repertoire book 'Attacking with 1.e4'. In this book GM Emms recommends the Bishop's Opening, with the idea of using it to reach certain lines of the Kings Gambit declined, however the following obscure line in my opinion puts Emms proposed system out of business. Here is the key game, in which black a GM and reknowned Bishop's opening specialist himself, demolishes his unsuspecting opponent:

[Event "Nordic Championships"]
[Site "Bergen NOR"]
[Date "2001.??.??"]
[White "Miellet Bensan,Y"]
[Black "Mitkov,N"]
[Round "7"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2243"]
[BlackElo "2547"]
[ECO "C25"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Bc5 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 O-O! [This is the first important idea, black makes ready to play a quick Re8 should white open the position too quickly] 

5. f4?! [White does not care, he will stick to his predetermined mode of development come what may. Inflexibiilty in chess can be a fatal desease]

5...exf4 6. Bxf4 c6! [This is the second important idea, and the reason why black ommitted Nc6 earlier in favor of castles. Black makes ready to open up the centre quickly while the white king still resides there]

7. Bb3 [Anticipating the central advance, but it doesn't deter black in the least] d5! [Already black is better] 8. d4 Bb4 9. e5 Ne4 10. Qf3 Qh4+ 11. g3 Qg4 12. Qxg4 Bxg4 13. h3 Be6 14. Nge2 a5 15. a3 Bxc3+ 16. Nxc3 Nxc3 17. bxc3 a4 18. Ba2 Nd7 19. Rb1 b5 20. Kd2 f6 21. exf6 Nxf6 22. Rbe1 Rae8 23. Kc1 Bf5 24. Be5 Ne4 25. g4
Bg6 26. h4 h6 0-1 

White decided to call it a day and perhaps some would say prematurely, but I think resignation is probably the strongest move in this position  considering that white is virtually a piece down as that bishop buried on a2 will never again see the light of day.

I must confess that I used to play this system for white, but the above move order means that he has to change plans. The KGD transpositional idea of f4 in the above line simply rebounds on white. I showed the above idea to GM Larry Chritiansen on WCN and he too was unable to find a solution for white if he goes 5.f4.

So it would seem that I have now armed forum users with a lethal weapon against practitioners of GM John Emms recommended and popular repertoire.

Happy hunting

Top  Grin

Postscript: Before I go, the discerning readers among you would have noticed that the exact line in question maybe reached via the Vienna or Bishop's Opening move order and in this particular case these moves canbe interchanged.      

I really do spoil you guys don't I, well I guess I'm just bad at keeping secrets. Wink
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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MNb
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #14 - 11/13/04 at 21:44:18
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8.fxg6 fxg6 / 18.o-o Bxc6 19.Nxc7+ Kd7 20.Nxa8 Nh3+ 21.gxh3 Qxa8 is only relatively better, I still prefer White after 22.Ng5 eg d5 23.exd5 Bxd5 24.Be3 Rf8 25.Rxf8+ Qxf8 26.a3 (prevents Qb4) and 27.Rf1.
Usually a queen is stronger than a knight and a bishop, but here White's pieces are far more active than Black's.
For the same reason 18...o-o-o is an improvement indeed: 19.Bxd7+ Rxd7 20.Rxf2 Rf7 21.Be3 a6 22.Raf1 and I still like White, but maybe not for objective reasons.
If the result of our little discussion is that you know what is going on here, I am convinced you can net some points in these lines! I mean, White has several options and against each of them Black has to defend very carefully just to avoid an immediate onslaught ...
The same holds hopefully true for me.
  

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BigBen
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #13 - 11/12/04 at 18:47:33
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Hi MNb,
       I to play this line for white and discussing it with you is certainly helping

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.fxg6 fxg6 9.Qh6 c6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qxh7 Qf6 12.Nf3 Rh8 13.Qc7 Na6 14.Ba6 Bb6! 15.Bb7! Bc7 16.Bc6+ Bd7 17.Nd5! Qf8 18.o-o!?  what about 18...O-O-O 19.Bd7+ Rd7 20.Rf2 Rf7  or as an alternative  18...Bc6!? 19.Nc7+ Kd7 20.Na8 Nh3+ 21.gh3 Qa8 ....

I have been looking at these lines tonight with a friend and we also put Shredder 8 and Deep Fritz 8 on ... what was interesting is thar Fritz gives white a + and Shredder thinks its about equal but I think we have found that white has no instant knock out.

I guess depending at what level you play black may just play Ng4 not knowing what is to come, at least I have some idea now  Grin

Regards

  
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MNb
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #12 - 11/12/04 at 18:18:46
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1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6

What about 8.fxg6 fxg6 9.Qh6 c6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qxh7 Qf6 12.Nf3 Rh8 13.Qc7 Na6 14.Ba6 Bb6! 15.Bb7! Bc7 16.Bc6+ Bd7 17.Nd5! Qf8 18.o-o!? eg Nh3+ 19.gxh3 Bb6+ 20.Nxb6 Bxc6 21.Nxa8 Qe7 22.Ng5 and the attack continues? I do not see even a glimpse of a defense.
As I play this system only as White, I really have no objection if 8.Qh6 c6 9.Bg5! wins too, but in the final position after 13.Be7 gxf5 I do not see more than a draw with 14.Bxf8 Nxf8 15.Nf6+ Ke7 16.Qg5 Ne6 as White has not enough pieces in the attack.
It is hard to imagine a Black player entering this complications voluntarily though.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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BigBen
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #11 - 11/11/04 at 12:28:25
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Hi MNb,
           in the line  1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.fxg6 fxg6 9.Qh6 c6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qxh7 Qf6 12.Nf3 d5? your line above does look very good against 12...d5?

so it looks like black has to rely on  12...Rh8 13.Qc7 Na6 14.Ba6 Bb6! 15.Bb7! I missed this at first ...Bc7 16.Bc6+ Bd7 17.Nd5! Qf8 18.Nc7+ Kd8 19.Kf2 Kc7 20.Ba8 Qa8 and black is not dead

I am still not sure yet that black can survive in the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.Qh6 c6?!  9.Bg5!  Qc7 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Bb5!!  (11.Bh6 d5 looks totally unclear, well at least to me) ... Nd7 12.Nd5! Qb8 13.Be7! gf5

Regards
  
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MNb
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #10 - 11/10/04 at 20:11:50
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8...c6 9.fxg6 fxg6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qxh7 Qf6 12.Nf3 d5 13.exd5 Rf7 14.Qh6 (14.Qg8+ draws) Bf8? 15.Qe3 Nxh1 18.dx6 Nxc6 19.Bxf7+ with a big plus. But 14...b5 15.Nxb5 is less clear.
8...Kd7 9.Bxf7+ Nxh1 10.Nf3 Qf8 11.Be6+ Kc6 12.Bd5+ Kd7 (Kb6!?) and White can hardly play on with 13.Ke2 Qxh6 14.Bxh6 gxf5 15.Na4 fxe4 16.Nxc5+ dxc5 17.dxe4 Ng3+ .
So I still prefer 8.fxg6 fxg6 9.Qh6 and after Nxh1 10.Nd5 c6 11.Bg5 looks best indeed.
Well, it is clear again that silicon analysis is not too reliable even in these tactical positions!
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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TalJechin
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #9 - 11/10/04 at 01:21:36
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Interesting discovery, but it's mainly a headache(?) for people who want to transpose to a KG Declined via the Vienna or Bishop's Opening, since the KG proper: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nc3! d6 allows white to play 4.Nf3! as keeping the option of a possible Bb5 is one of the advantages of a KG move order, and with Nf3 in, 5/6...Ng4 is no longer a threat, as far as I can see at least.
  
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dearlv
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #8 - 11/09/04 at 21:59:02
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"Every KG-eer will sell his soul to reach the position after 6...Bg4 7.Na4 o-o 8.Nxc5 dxc5 9.f5. Dearlv, Thomas Johansson in The King's Gambit for the creative aggressor investivates 7...o-o on page 61. "

funny. this is very comfortable for black but I'm really not going to get into it. good luck.
  
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MNb
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #7 - 11/09/04 at 21:34:37
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Every KG-eer will sell his soul to reach the position after 6...Bg4 7.Na4 o-o 8.Nxc5 dxc5 9.f5. Dearlv, Thomas Johansson in The King's Gambit for the creative aggressor investivates 7...o-o on page 61.
I will take a closer look at the various 6.f5 analyses. Thanks Dragonslayer for pointing out the transposition.
1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nc3! d6 4.Bc4 and now Nc6 5.Nf3?! (5.d3) Bg4! is better for Black, Zukertort-Schallopp, Frankfurt 1887.
TJ in his book has dealt pretty well with the 5...Ng4 and 6...Ng4 deviations. White should not fear them.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #6 - 11/09/04 at 16:57:06
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Quote:
It has always amazed me, that this position can not be reached via the KG.


Yes, it is true that after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 we cannot reach that line, but there is a very similar line in the KG after 3...d6 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.d3 Ng4 or even 5...Ng4. These lines are seriously underrated/underexposed in KG books.
And in fact the Vienna line in question CAN be reached from the KG, viz: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nc3! d6 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.d3 transposes directly to the line in question. This way White avoids the line 3.Nf3 d5, but has to be prepared for 3.Nc3 Bxg1 and of course he has the option to choose when to play Nf3.
  
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #5 - 11/09/04 at 10:59:47
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Hi,
   I think it has been said before but never trust the stats in the databases

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.Qh6 Kd7 9.Bxf7!? Nxh1  10.Nd5 Qf8  (10...Kc6!? 11.Bg5 Qf8 12.Ne7+ Kb6 draw?)

11.Be6+ Kc6 12.Qxf8 Rxf8 13.Ne7+ Kb5? this is a bad computer move I think  13...Kb6! and white only has a draw by  repition as taking on c8 is much worse .. black placing his King on b5 and a5 is just asking for trouble ...

I think this 8.Qh6 Kd7 9.Bxf7!? Nxh1  10.Nd5 line is less of a problem for black as it seems to be a quick draw.  Still no easy white win  Grin

Instead of 10.Nd5 maybe 10.Nf3 is a better try? although 10...Qf8 may lead to lines similar  to above

Regards
  
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #4 - 11/09/04 at 09:32:33
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As to why g6 isn't mentioned, it's easy, black has 1½ points in eleven games with g6.

Kd7 is an improvement only played once, but perhaps white should follow that game as 9.Bxf7 looks interesting, for example:

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.Qh6 Kd7 9.Bxf7!?

9...Nxh1

[ 9...c6?! 10.Qg7 Kc7 11.Bg8+ Bd7 ( 11...Nd7 12.Qxh8 Nxh1 13.Nf3+-) 12.Qxh8 Lo Presti,R - Jimenez,J Villa Ballester 2002 Nxh1  13.Qxh7 ( 13.Nf3 Na6) 13...Bxg1 14.Bd2 and white probably has more than enough for the piece.]

10.Nd5 Bxg1

[ 10...Qf8 11.Be6+ Kc6 12.Qxf8 Rxf8 13.Ne7+ Kb5 14.a4+ Ka6 15.Bc4+ b5 16.axb5+ Kb6 17.Bd2! Bd7 18.Bh6 Rd8 19.f6 Bxg1 20.Kd2 Bc5 21.Rxh1 a6 22.Nd5+! Kb7 23.b4!‚ axb5? 24.bxc5 bxc4 25.Rb1+]

11.Be6+ Kc6 12.Bxc8 with nice compensation.

It's not easy to refute ...Kd7 without giving a lot of variations and a lot of moves in each variation as seen after 10...Qf8, but white should probably be happy with the resulting mess imo.
  
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BigBen
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #3 - 11/09/04 at 08:23:47
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Hi,
    dearlv I know all about the line you suggest and thanks but when I find what I think looks an obvious move like 7...g6 not mentioned in a book in a line that is supposed to be just bad for black I just want to know why  Smiley and as for the Ruy Lopez I might return to it one day Wink

MNb  thanks for your comments ... in the line  1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.Qh6 c6?! 9.fg6 fg6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qh7 Qd7 12.Qg6+ Kd8 you suggest 13.Bh6 Re8 (13...Qe8 14.Qg5+ Kc7 15.Bf8 Qf8 16.Ke2! Nh1 17.Rf1 Qh8 18.Nf3 is also good) 14.Nh3 Nxh1 15.o-o-o does look very bad for black ...

so backing up a bit instead of 11...Qd7? what about 11...Qf6!? 12.Nf3 d5  (12...Rh8 13.Qc7 Na6 14.Ba6 Bb6! 15.Bb7! I missed this at first ...Bc7 16.Bc6+ Bd7 17.Nd5! Qf8 18.Nc7+ Kd8 19.Kf2 Kc7 20.Ba8 Qa8 and black is not dead) 13.Qc7 (13.Bg5 Qf7) ...Nd7 14.Bg5 Bb6 15.Bf6 Bc7 16.Kf2 dc4 17.Bh4 cd3 18.cd3 Nc5 and although a pawn down black has plenty of play

1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 (you suggest) 8.fg6 fg6 9.Qh6

9...c6 10.Qg7 Rf8 11.Qh7 Qf6 transposes to the above

9...Nh1 10.Nd5 c6 11.Qg7 cxd5 12.Qxh8 Kd7 13.Qxh7+ Qe7 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 15.Bg5+ Ke8 16.Bd5  and black seems fine after 16...Nc6 (or even 16...Bg1 17.Kd2 Bb6 maybe 16...Nf2 is playable) 17.Nf3 Nb4 (Nf2!? or Bg4!?) 18.Ke2 Nd5 19.ed5 e4 20.de4 (20.Rh1!? ef3 21.Kf3) Nf2 and black seems far from lost in these lines

Maybe white can try 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5! Nf2 7.Qh5 g6 8.fg6 fg6 9.Qh6 Nh1 10.Nd5 c6 11.Bg5 Qg5 12.Qg5 cd5 13.Bd5 Nc6 14.Nf3 white does have an active Queen although after 14...Rf8 15.c3 or Qh6 it is unclear

Maybe the next Vienna book will have to devote a little extra space to this line  Grin

Regards
  
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dearlv
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #2 - 11/08/04 at 21:41:57
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1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Nf6 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Na4 0-0! is good for black as far as I'm concerned. This line is recommended for white in many books on the Vienna, King's Gambit, and Bishop's Opening, and no one mentions 7...0-0 (except for ChessPublishing!) 7.h3 is pretty harmless too.

Try the Ruy Lopez...
  
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MNb
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Re: Vienna, is this line so bad?
Reply #1 - 11/08/04 at 21:31:11
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It has always amazed me, that this position can not be reached via the KG.
In line b) 9.fxg6 etc. the final position is good for White: 13.Bh6 Re8 14.Nh3 Nxh1 15.o-o-o with a strong, probably winning attack.
But line a is nothing special for White. So my improvement is 8.fxg6 fxg6 9.Qh6
a) 9...Kd7? 10.Qg7+ Kc6 11.a4 with a mating attack.
b) 9...c6 transposes.
c) 9...Nxh1 is critical, when my quick analysis runs 10.Nd5 c6 11.Qg7 (11.Bg5? Qxg5) cxd5
(Qh4+!?) 12.Qxh8 Kd7 13.Qxh7+ Qe7 14.Qxe7+ Kxe7 15.Bg5+ and 16.Bxd5 when Black's problems are not over yet. But I guess, that there are improvements in abundance.

It seems wiser for Black, to play 4...c6 (in stead of d6) with the idea 5.f4 exf4 6.Bxf4 d5 7.exd5 o-o as TopNotch once pointed out.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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