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Normal Topic QGD Exchange - pig ignorant question (Read 3003 times)
Paddy
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Re: QGD Exchange - pig ignorant question
Reply #6 - 06/22/05 at 17:24:52
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What are the downsides of 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 and then 3.cxd at once?


I used to play this myself as White, because it avoids having to learn how to play against the sharp VHS Gambit 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 cxd4!?

However, I eventually realised that a clued-up Black will play 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.cxd5 exd5 4.Nc3 c6!, when we reach the same position as in the Triangle after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6, in which 4.cxd5 exd5 IS occasionally used by strong players, but I think it tends to be mainly when they've nothing prepared against the Noteboom, i.e. to avoid sharp lines and force a Carlsbad structure whatever, even in a sub-optimal version in which the chances are fairly equal from an early stage.

Now 5.Bg5 is impossible. If 5.Bf4 Bd6 or Bf5=. If 5.Nf3 Bf5=. If 5.Qc2 Bd6 followed by Nge7, or 5...Na6 or just 5...g6 with the idea of ...Bf5.

Of course White is also fine - think of it as a Caro Exchange with an extra move. In addition, since the pawn structure is unbalanced,  both sides still have plenty of scope to play for a win.

The main point though is that  Black is under far less pressure than in the main lines of the Exchange Variation; it really helps Black to have the Carlsbad pawn structure defined BEFORE he has developed his king's knight.
  
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Klick
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Re: QGD Exchange - pig ignorant question
Reply #5 - 06/22/05 at 11:34:56
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What are the downsides of 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 and then 3.cxd at once?
  

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lnn2
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Re: QGD Exchange - pig ignorant question
Reply #4 - 11/13/04 at 07:31:24
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I think I've got it now!

In reply to Inn2, I don't think 8 Bxf6 in the Excahnge move order can really be a good move, because if it was then after 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 Be7 5 Nf3 00 6 e3 h6 in the main line Othodox, presumably people would play 7 Bxf6 Bxf6 8 cxd5 exd5 9 Bd3, and I don't think they (well, GMs, anyway) ever do this. I know 7 Bxf6 is a move but they usually make a queen move next, I think.


Ah yes. You're right. but again I'm hardly familiar with these mainline Nf3 systems. I've almost never put my knight on f3 as White. Sadler's book needs alot of patience. And the details and wrinkles he goes at great lengths about are NOT relevant sub-master level!

i'm curious but why would a daredevil Alekhine player like yourself defend the QGD? And if you are playing 1. d4 as White the "classical" mainlines are boring no? 5. Bf4 and exchange Nge2 seems more interesting...
  
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John Cox
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Re: QGD Exchange - pig ignorant question
Reply #3 - 11/12/04 at 15:26:44
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I think I've got it now!

In the Exchange order, 7 ....h6 8 Bh4 b6 9 Nf3 Bb7 is not a position White can ever get from the Tartakover because if he doesn't put Bxf6 in first (ie 7....b6 8 Bd3 Bb7 9 cxd5) then Black can play 9...Nxd5 as demonstrated to be equal in various Geller games in the 1980s. The position after 9...Bb7 was tested in the Kasparov-Belyavsky Candidates match in 1983 (a memory stirs....), and 10 00 Ne4 was thought to be only slightly better for White, but it hasn't caught on. Just as I thought, in fact - this was all worked out years ago and is nowadays thought too obvious to mention, so one has to work it out oneself. 9...Be6 has been played a bit but seems to have done rather badly.

Basically the point is that if White wants to fix the d-pawn in the Tartakover he has to make a concession, either Bxf6 or allowing the exchange of a couple of pieces.

In reply to Inn2, I don't think 8 Bxf6 in the Excahnge move order can really be a good move, because if it was then after 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 Be7 5 Nf3 00 6 e3 h6 in the main line Othodox, presumably people would play 7 Bxf6 Bxf6 8 cxd5 exd5 9 Bd3, and I don't think they (well, GMs, anyway) ever do this. I know 7 Bxf6 is a move but they usually make a queen move next, I think.
  
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lnn2
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Re: QGD Exchange - pig ignorant question
Reply #2 - 11/12/04 at 01:57:17
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White actually plays Bxf6 himself in some of the main QGD exchange lines (without any h6 provocation), just so as to drag the e7 bishop to f6 so that he can play b4 immediately (minority attack).

My impression is therefore that h6 is a waste of time. White gets to play b4 for free now without spending time on preparatory moves like Bxf6 or Rb1 or a3.

I am not so sure of exact theory though...to me ideas are always more important in the QGD. Hope this helps Smiley
  
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Re: QGD Exchange - pig ignorant question
Reply #1 - 11/11/04 at 21:39:39
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Probably yes. As I am as ignorant as you, I usually play 1.e4. So I looked in the good old Damengambit bis Holländisch by Taimanov, 1980 and found:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 o-o 6.Nf3 h6 7.Bh4 b6 8.cxd5 exd5 9.Bd3 Be6 10.o-o Nbd7 11.Rc1 c5 12.Bb1 Rc8 13.Ne5 Nxe5 14.dxe5 Ng4 15.Bg3 Bh4 16.Qd3 with advantage to White, Sanguineti-Michel, Buenos Aires, 1945.
  

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John Cox
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QGD Exchange - pig ignorant question
11/11/04 at 19:57:55
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So the game starts 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Bg5 Be7 6 e3 00 7 Bd3. Now Black plays 7...h6. Am I meant to take that knight? Well, say I don't, and the game goes on 8 Bh4 b6. Now 9 Nf3 Bb7 would - I think - be a position from the Tartakower where I'm meant to play 10 Bxf6. But say Black instead tried 9...Be6? I have an idea that the point of cxd5 in the Tartakower is that you wait until the bishop is on d5 before doing it, because otherwise the bishop comes to e6 like this. Is that right?

And if it is right and I ought to play 8 Bxf6, how come no-one ever tells you this? Or do all 1 d4 players learn this stuff in the cradle, and it's so obvious Sadler et al don't bother to explain it?
  
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