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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy (Read 12154 times)
MNb
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #25 - 12/01/04 at 20:08:06
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This seems a fair conclusion. Naughty knight (and others) must have enough information by now to decide which move to play - 3...Nf6 or 3...Bc5.
  

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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #24 - 11/30/04 at 21:56:06
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4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Ne4 7.Qe2 d5 8.exd6 9.dxc7
A) 9...Qe7!? 10.o-o (Fritz likes 10.cxd4 Bb4+ 11.Kd1, I don't) dxc3 and Black's play is reasonable, eg 11.bxc3 Re8 12.Bf4 Bg4 Syska-Sutterer, Zell 1977.
B) 9...Qd5 10.o-o dxc3 11.Bc4 Fediasjin-Kajumov, Tasjkent 1971. This might be even stronger than 10.Bc4 immediately because of Qd7 (ugly) 11.o-o Re8 Judasin-Arsenjev, Jaroslavl 1986.
How big is White's advantage after 7.cxd4 Bb4+ 8.Nbd2 o-o 9.o-o Bxd2 10.Bxd2 Nxd2 11.Qxd2 Ne7 12.Bd3 d5!?


In line A, 10...Qe7, White has 10. Bxc6 bxc6  11. cxd4 Bb4+  12. Nc3 with harmonious development and a material advantage.  After 9...Qd5  10. Bxc6 doesn't work because of 10...Qxc6  11. cxd4 Bxd4!

In line B, 10...Qd5  11. Bc4 Qd7  11. O-O Re8! does seem strong; I analyzed 12. cxd4 Nxd4! (not 12...Bxd4 13. Qc2)  13. Nxd4 Nd6  (13...Nxf2!?) 14. Ne6! Qc6! and Black seems O.K.  I agree, White maybe should play 11. O-O but after 11...bxc3 I like simply 12. Nxc3.  For example, 12...Nxc3  13. bxc3 Qd6  14. Qe4 (threatens Bf4) 14...Qxc7  15. Ng5 g6  16. Qh4 h5  17. Ne4 and to me, Black's exposed kingside looks more important than White's weak c-pawn.   

I am not sure of the answer to the question that you pose at the last, but I like White's game well.  He will probably play 12. Rac1 and then explore how to run his f-pawn.  Black's main hope would seem to be to seek simplification.  Maybe somebody else here has a different idea.

It's a matter of judgement whether White has more in some of these liines than he does in the initial position, and unfortunately, I can't claim to be a great judge of chess positions.  But so far I am happy here with White.
  

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MNb
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #23 - 11/29/04 at 21:29:41
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I had not noticed the similarity between
A)1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Ne4 7.o-o d5 8.Nxd4 and
B)3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Bc5 8.o-o. The extra move c3 is possibly not very useful, but not totally useless either. At the other hand, 8.o-o in line B is a bit dubious.
To expand this a little further: in line B 8.o-o o-o! 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10.c3 f6 is already better for Black. So it is not clear, how important the extra move in line A really is. For instance, in line A 8...o-o 9.Bxc6 (9.Nxc6 is hardly playable, just like the Two Knights) bxc6 10.f3 Ng5 11.Be3 f6 and Black has more or less saved a tempo by not playing Bd7.
At one hand I would not be surprised if 8.Nxd4 gives White a plus. At the other hand, I have line B already played with succes in the past.

Another similarity is
A)1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.c3 f5 5.d4 fxe4 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.Nxe5 Bd6 and
B)3.Bb5 f5 4.d4 fxe4 5.Bxc6 dxc6 6.Nxe5 Nf6 7.o-o Bd6
and now I think White's extra tempo in line A counts: 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Qe2 Qh4 10.Nd2!
  

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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #22 - 11/29/04 at 08:10:41
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Hi to all !
IMHO 4 c3 f5 is perfectly playable , following a rule of thumb : " in open games , when White play c3 without being developed enough , Black would be well advised to play either d5 , or f5 according to the position"
30 years ago , I played it with success Roll Eyes
Friendly Yours
Photophore 8)
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #21 - 11/29/04 at 08:09:01
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Thanks, Markovich, now I have something to work on. In a previous post I already mentioned 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6  5.d4 exd4  6.e5 Ne4  7.0-0 d5, the choice of Beyen.
.


As White I would play 8. Nxd4.  It seems that White is a tempo up on the "Modern" system vs. the Two Knights, right?  Is c3 somehow unconstructive?

Flear's book is deficient in SO many ways, not just in this variation, but in others.  He ONLY considers 8. Nxd4, for example.

Look, it happens that for 3...Bc5 to be any good, he must be O.K. in ALL of the lines arising from 4. c3 Nf6  5. d4.  The reason is that if White wants to play against the Berlin Classical instead, he just plays 4. c3 Nf6  5. 0-0 -- Black has no choice in the matter.  Black MUST prepare the main lines of the Berlin Classical if he wants to play play 3...Bc5.  But one can't play the Berlin Classical without having to prepare against 3...Bc5  4. c3 Nf6  5. d4 (unless he plays suboptimally at move 4).

When Black plays 3...Bc5 White gains the option of playing 4. c3 Nf6  5. d4 and loses the option of playing Spanish Center Game.   Personally as Black, I would rather face the latter than the former. 


  

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MNb
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #20 - 11/28/04 at 21:31:56
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Thanks, Markovich, now I have something to work on. In a previous post I already mentioned 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6  5.d4 exd4  6.e5 Ne4  7.0-0 d5, the choice of Beyen.
4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Ne4 7.Qe2 d5 8.exd6 9.dxc7
A) 9...Qe7!? 10.o-o (Fritz likes 10.cxd4 Bb4+ 11.Kd1, I don't) dxc3 and Black's play is reasonable, eg 11.bxc3 Re8 12.Bf4 Bg4 Syska-Sutterer, Zell 1977.
B) 9...Qd5 10.o-o dxc3 11.Bc4 Fediasjin-Kajumov, Tasjkent 1971. This might be even stronger than 10.Bc4 immediately because of Qd7 (ugly) 11.o-o Re8 Judasin-Arsenjev, Jaroslavl 1986.
How big is White's advantage after 7.cxd4 Bb4+ 8.Nbd2 o-o 9.o-o Bxd2 10.Bxd2 Nxd2 11.Qxd2 Ne7 12.Bd3 d5!?
  

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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #19 - 11/28/04 at 13:55:18
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Statement 4 is the one I dispute.

For one thing, I opine that White can improve significantly on Wemmers-Sokolov, Amsterdam 2000, where 4. c3 Nf6  5. d4 exd4  6. e5 Ne4  7. 0-0 a6  8. Ba4 dxc3  9. Qd5 cxb2  10. Bxb2 Bxf2+  11. Kh1 Nc5 was played.  Now instead of Wemmers' 11. e6, it seems to me that 11. Bxc6 dxc6  12. Qxd8+ Kxd8  13. Rxf2 is rather good for White.  Technically Black has enough for his piece, and the queens are off, but White has a big lead in activity. 

[Somebody might say, "Black could improve before that with 9...Bxf2  10. Rxf2 (10. Kh1 Be3) 10...Nxf2  11. Kxf2, when the material imbalance is Black's rook and three pawns versus White's two minor pieces."  But although my computer does not agree with me, I think that Black has probably bitten off more than he can chew.  That Sokolov chose not to play this way is perhaps worthy of note.]

For another thing, 7. Qe2 looks very good.  For the benefit of those who lack Flear's "Offbeat Spanish," the book line is 7...d5  8. exd6 0-0  9. dxc7 Qd5  10. Bc4 Qd7  11. 0-0 Nd6  12. Bd3 dxc3  13. Nxc3 Qxc7  14. Bf4 (Haberditz) when White's prospects for the point look good.

I am a little less certain of 7. cxd5 Bb5+  8. Nbd2 0-0  9. 0-0 d5  10. Bxc6 bxc6  11. Qc2.  Flear attributes 11...Ba6  12. Re1 c5 "with counterplay" to Ftacnik.  This overlooks 12. Nxe4 Bxe8  13. Nxc5 (or 13. Neg5) and Black, who must surrender a second minor piece, is much worse.  Instead of 12...c5? or 12...Bc8 13. Nxe4 dxe4  14. Bd2, Black should probably play 12...Bxd2.  White must reply 12. Bxd2, since 12. Nxd2? is very strongly met by 12...Nxf2.  So 12. Bxd2 and White not only has play against Black's debilitated queenside, but he has prospects of kicking Black's knight out of e4 and then, after due preparation, running his f-pawn.

In reply to 11.Qc2, Black should probably play not 11...Ba6 but 11...Bf5.  I have contributed enough for now, so for the time being, I will leave the exploration of that to others.
  

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MNb
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #18 - 11/28/04 at 01:48:40
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No, it is just a matter of choice/taste. And now I do hear some dogmatism.
Logic can be difficult.
Statement 1: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.o-o Bc5 5.c3 and 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.o-o just transpose; this line is critical.
Statement 2: Then Black's choice depends on White's second best options.
Statement 3: So Black must compare 3...Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 a6 6.Ba4 (Centre Gambit) with 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4.
Statement 4: In neither variation White can prove an advantage.
Statement 5: So there is no objective reason to prefer 3...Nf6 or 3...Bc5.
Statement 6: So the choice is a matter of taste.
« Last Edit: 11/28/04 at 04:23:46 by MNb »  

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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #17 - 11/27/04 at 21:08:51
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<I do not fear 3...Nf6  4. d4 one little bit.  Isn't this widely held to be equal?>
In the end most lines are equal. But the transposition to the Spanish Centre Gambit 4...exd4 5.e5 a6 6.Ba4 will not be to the taste of all Black players.
IMHO 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 is sligthly more risky, but also more interesting than 3...Nf6 4.d4.


If someone is afraid of the Spanish Center Gambit, why play 1...e5?   

Oh, now I see!  To avoid that terribly frightening Spanish Center Gambit, one MUST play 3...Bc5 (or 3...g6 or 3...f5 or 3...Nge7 or 3...d6 or 3...Nd4 or 3...Bb4) right?   That sounds like good chess, all right!
  

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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #16 - 11/27/04 at 20:45:18
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"4.0-0 should be met with 4...Nf6 and not 4...Nd4"

Do I hear some dogmatism ?? -



Oh sorry, and here I thought the subject was "Opinions wanted."
  

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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #15 - 11/24/04 at 05:13:05
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<I do not fear 3...Nf6  4. d4 one little bit.  Isn't this widely held to be equal?>
In the end most lines are equal. But the transposition to the Spanish Centre Gambit 4...exd4 5.e5 a6 6.Ba4 will not be to the taste of all Black players.
IMHO 3...Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 is sligthly more risky, but also more interesting than 3...Nf6 4.d4.
  

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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #14 - 11/24/04 at 03:55:49
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"4.0-0 should be met with 4...Nf6 and not 4...Nd4"

Do I hear some dogmatism ?? -
Looking at my TWIC 1-524 database and searching for topical 2500+ games I found an astonishing 60% score for Black (!) after 4.0-0 Nd4 . Maybe it´s a draw weapon (used by Adams in FIDE-KO!) but it seems to be a very good one, obviously as good as the Berlin Wall and much easier to play.
In his MyGreatPredecessors-Chapter about Spassky (game57) even Garry himself gives "5.Nxd4 Bxd4 6.c3 Bb6 7.d4 c6 8.Ba4(c4) d6 with equality".
Maybe it´s a "dreary task" to defend this endgame but it´s the same to play this for a win as white! In fact this endgame may be the reason for the decline of popularity of 4.0-0. Of course White should have a microscopical advantage but you can say the same about 4.d3.
I forgot to mention 4.0-0 d6 which is also very solid and scores well. And at the end I want to draw your attention to the high class encounter Bacrot-Morozevich (Biel 2004) where by transposition from a real Bird 4.0-0 Nd4 5.Nxd4 exd4 was reached. 5...exd4 might be experimental but even if you are Moro you cannot beat Bacrot with every minor variation. It´s worth a try!

Summary: 4.0-0 cannot be recognized as a critical reply to 3...Bc5 . 4...Nf6 is a principal and active way to transpose to the main line but 4...d6 and 4.Nd4 are good enough for a somewhat dull equality. That leaves 3...Bc5 4.c3!

(continues)
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #13 - 11/23/04 at 20:38:58
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3...Nf6 may scare soem into thinking you intend the real Berlin, and play 4.d3 too. that article on the Classical Berlin just dismisses d2-d3 lines, but they are not that simple...
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #12 - 11/23/04 at 20:30:55
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So far I have not studied theory very deep as I play the Classical Defence only sometimes in blitz but I strongly prefer the 3...Bc5 move order!

After 3...Bc5 4.0-0 Black not only has 4...Nf6 with transposition or 4...Nd4 5.Nxd4 Bxd4 with a "dull endgame" (I like to defend this), but also 4...Nd4 5.Nxd4 exd4!? with a Bird.

Regarding 3...Bc5 4.c3 Black has even more possibilities which White must be prepared for:
- 4...Nf6 with transposition as mentioned
- 4...f5!? is very sharp, maybe += but for sure playable
- 4...Qf6!? is not easy to counter, should be += but still playable
- 4...d5?! (Konikowski) can´t be sound but also White can go wrong
- 4...Bb6?! 5.d4 exd4 6.cxd4 Nce7! was played in Sanakoev-Oim ,  14th CC World Championship final 1994 (and Black won to become champion!)


4. 0-0 should be met with 4...Nf6 and not 4...Nd4.  Black perhaps may may be able to draw in the latter, but the task is dreary.  I remember a game of Spassky's where he played ...Ke7, but that's been refuted, right?

4...f5 is a "bad boy" move that I used to play.  My opponents were often very intimidated (rapid breathing was heard across the table) but I think that with best play, White is much better than he is against the "Berlin Classical." You cannot play chess above elo 2000 expecting that your opponents don't know theory.

4...d5 is a crappy move.  About such a move, you have to ask, if this is right, how can 1. e4 be correct?

4...Qf6 looks like Steinitz at his stubborn worst.  OK, call me opinionated, but it just smells bad.  Maybe some super-GM will use it to draw some other super-GM someday, and prove me wrong, but that would surprise me.

I do not fear 3...Nf6  4. d4 one little bit.  Isn't this widely held to be equal?

I am impatient with rationalizations like "After 3...Bc5, White has to worry about so many different moves."  Why worry about somebody offering you more winning chances than you had in the initial position?
  

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MNb
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Classical Ruy
Reply #11 - 11/23/04 at 20:14:14
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As not everybody will know the spectacular corr game Hesse-Beyen, 1975, here it is.

Hesse,P - Beyen,R [C64]
corr, 1975

1.e4 e5 2.Pf3 Pc6 3.Lb5 Lc5 4.c3 Pf6 5.d4 exd4 6.e5 Pe4 7.0-0
[7.De2 d5 8.exd6 0-0]

7...d5 8.exd6
[8.Pxd4 0-0]

8...0-0! 9.dxc7 Dxc7 10.cxd4 Pxd4! 11.Pxd4 Db6 12.Ld3
[12.Le3 Td8 13.Ld3 Lxd4 14.Lxe4 Lxe3 15.Dc2 Ld4 16.Pc3 Lxc3 (16...Dh6 Plunge-Beyen, corr 1972) 17.bxc3 g6 18.Tfd1 Le6!? 19.Tdb1 Da5 20.Txb7 Tac8„ ½-½ Becerra Rivero,J-Armas,J/CUB 1994/CBM 43/[Wedberg] (34);
12.Pc3 Pxc3 (12...Pxf2 13.Txf2 Lxd4 14.Df1) 13.bxc3 Lxd4 14.Dxd4 Dxb5 1-0 Kochetkova,J-Sjidkich,D/ Serpuchov 2003/PG030310 (70)]

12...Pxf2! 13.Txf2 Lxd4 14.Df3?
[14.Dc2 Td8 15.Lf1 (15.Lxh7+?? Kh8 16.Le4 Lxf2+ 17.Dxf2 Td1#) 15...Td5 16.Pc3 Tf5 17.Pd1 Ld7 18.Ld3 Te8 19.Kf1 Tfe5 Erdeljan-Beyen, corr 1966;
14.Df1 Td8 15.Le2 Te8 16.Pc3 Lg4 17.Lb5 Te5÷]

14...Lg4! 15.Dxg4 Lxf2+ 16.Kf1 Tfe8 17.Ld2
[17.Lxh7+ Kxh7 18.Df5+ Kg8 19.Dxf2 Da6+ 20.Kg1 Te2 21.Df1 Tae8-+;
17.Le2 Lg1 (17...Le3) 18.Dg3 Te6 19.Pc3 Tae8 20.Lf4 Ld4 (20...Le3) 21.Lc4 Dxb2 22.Tb1
Dxc3 23.Lxe6 fxe6 24.Dxc3 Lxc3 25.Txb7 Tf8 26.Tb8 Ld4 ½-½ Johannessen,S-Sande,O/NORch 1975/MCL (52)]

17...Tad8 18.Df5
[18.Lc3 Ld4]

18...Txd3 19.Dxd3 Lg1 20.Df3 Lxh2 0-1

It seems to me, that this variation perfectly fits in Markovich's description of the Classical
Defense.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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