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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive player (Read 19229 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #47 - 09/07/05 at 18:48:36
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I think the Latvian and its hybrids are mostly played for fun rather than to play the very best game.  It works as a surprise, as I said earlier, but I wouldn't want to rely on it.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #46 - 09/07/05 at 12:19:16
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3.exf5, 3.d4 and 3.Bc4 are hardly worse. Jeremy Silman on his site got a letter on the Latvian Gambit. The conclusion was, that it's Black's goal to prove, that White cannot win the resulting endings despite of his extra pawn. That means, that the Latvian is not fit for an aggressive player, but only for a masochist.
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #45 - 09/07/05 at 10:59:41
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I think there is some confusion here - the thread started off talking about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5?! and then a reference to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5?! (our old friend the Latvian Gambit) snuck in.

I won't comment on the "Italian-Latvian" hybrid, but I am firmly convinced that the simple 3.Nxe5 is +/- (albeit maybe not quite +-) against the Latvian.
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #44 - 09/07/05 at 10:23:05
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Well,

This particular master does indeed have an interesting sense of humour, and he did win the game but just to be clear, Markovich, I did point out that White's second move wasn't Bc4, but Nf3.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #43 - 09/06/05 at 13:38:05
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In answer to that question, I saw a master play the Black side of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 and White spent more than half an hour (of his 2 hours in 40 moves) on his response.  Is a pawn worth half an hour in standard?  It would sure be worth a minute in blitz!


A realistic chance that anyone would play this would be enough to make me play 1. e4 against them.  This system is a joke.  The bishop is already on c4, and ...f5 is played?
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #42 - 09/05/05 at 03:07:38
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In answer to that question, I saw a master play the Black side of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 and White spent more than half an hour (of his 2 hours in 40 moves) on his response.  Is a pawn worth half an hour in standard?  It would sure be worth a minute in blitz!
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #41 - 08/31/05 at 13:56:29
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Basqueknight,

The line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5!? is showing up in serious games again after an hiatus of about a century.  Maybe just playing 2...f5 will be seen as an improvement! Wink


Well, how serious can such a game be?
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #40 - 08/30/05 at 01:36:20
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Basqueknight,

The line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5!? is showing up in serious games again after an hiatus of about a century.  Maybe just playing 2...f5 will be seen as an improvement! Wink
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #39 - 08/29/05 at 23:44:34
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he could just play e5 e5 nf3 f5 with a fun game
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #38 - 08/23/05 at 16:45:02
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I think you can't identify Black play in open Sicilians and in open games: they are not the same players
It's true that I am an exclusive  correspondance player , and it may change a lot of things
As for me I am a typical e4e5 player , and I scored as much with Black as with white in open games
Yet my tries with Black in Sicilian were unsuccessful , although I score well with White eg in the Najdorf
So , if your fellow is a true Sicilian player , he ought not turn to open games
If he were an open games player , he would have discovered it by himself as I did
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #37 - 08/23/05 at 00:41:33
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Well I was clever enough to come up with the alias, not clever enough to look up how to spell it.   Grin

I learned later  it was originally it mxyztplk and in 1959 it accidently (typo) became mxyzptlk.  Isn't the internet wonderful?  Nothing is too trivial that you can't find information on it (well close).   Smiley
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #36 - 08/22/05 at 13:11:05
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No, that was Mr. Mxyzptlk.
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #35 - 08/22/05 at 08:04:05
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I agree with the general consensus that one should be cautious about changing your repertoire without an extremely good reason.  However, it seems inefficient to me to play a sharp Sicililian line if your opponents don't play the open Sicilian very often.  I would define efficiency in studying chess as rating points gained divided by time studied.  The advantage of 1...e5 is your time spent on sharper lines like the King's Gambit, the Italian, etc. tend to be used at least if your opponents are like mine I rarely play anyone higher than about 2100.


Hey, weren't you one of Superman's nemeses?
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #34 - 08/21/05 at 22:16:17
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I agree with the general consensus that one should be cautious about changing your repertoire without an extremely good reason.  However, it seems inefficient to me to play a sharp Sicililian line if your opponents don't play the open Sicilian very often.  I would define efficiency in studying chess as rating points gained divided by time studied.  The advantage of 1...e5 is your time spent on sharper lines like the King's Gambit, the Italian, etc. tend to be used at least if your opponents are like mine I rarely play anyone higher than about 2100.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #33 - 12/16/04 at 18:40:34
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<there is a lot of imitation of GMs in the opening choices of lower-level players>
I doubt it. Many lower-level players hardly study openings, so how can they imitate?
<how complicated some of them are. > This is a good reason to play 1...e5 as Black, because complicated positions generally offer more winning chances than simple ones.
<I don't think these openings are so passive> Of course they are not, Black should not be worse. But I understood that D-K's friend was looking for possibilities for aggressive play, and in the Open Games I mentioned that is quite hard to achieve.
<White that scores above 60 %>
In my favourite defense, the Iljin-Zjenevsky, there are several lines in which White scores even better and still I think they should be playable for Black. But at the other hand IZ is hardly played on top level.
Another one: on top GM-level the King's Gambit scores considerably better than the Petrov. Must this lead to the conclusion, that 2.f4 is better than 2.Nf3? I can already hear the protests of TopNotch and others!
The Sicilian is good, because it is based on sound strategy and the asymmetrical pawn structures lead to imbalanced play.
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #32 - 12/16/04 at 14:25:49
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What's so hard to understand in the scotch opening? It's all about opening lines and developping pieces as fast as possible.
Not about pawnstructures with pawns on a6,e6 and d6 or a6, d6 ,e5 as in the sicilians.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #31 - 12/16/04 at 13:39:10
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When I went with my chess collegue yesterday (due to his temporary Sveshnikov-frustration) through the different positions that can arise when playing e4 e5, I was surprised how many different positions can arise and how complicated some of them are.

If I would have the choice to better teach a 1600player a Scottish game or a Sicilian (doesnt matter whether open or closed) I really believe that the 1600player easier understands the Sicilian.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #30 - 12/16/04 at 13:25:35
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Dutch-Kalashnikov wrote : " If it is successfull among GMs it will be the same same story among clubplayers "

This is where we disagree, I don't think 1600s can understand the complex sicilian the way masters do while the play in the open games is much more straightforward and will probably be better for the results and definately for the chess development.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #29 - 12/16/04 at 13:20:00
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MNb wrote : "The Rousseau Gambit 3...f5 is more than dubious; after eg 4.d3 White has a variation of the Jänisch-Schliemann Gambit with an extra tempo. "

This is true, but the variation your talking about is pretty harmless for black in the schliemann, with a tempo more it is not so harmless anymore but definately not a clear refutation and I don't worry to play black against it. But I agree  the rousseau gambit is dubious as some lines I analysed in the d4 main line just lead to a plus for white where blacks only hope is that he maybe can draw the endgame.

Mnb wrote: ....."What will he think of the 4-knight's game, the quiet variations of the Vienna and Bishop's Game etc.?"

I don't think these openings are so passive, black can just easily devellop all his pieces to good squares and play a game of chess. Also there are still some tricky variations in these, for example in the scotch 4-knights black can play 4.Bb4!?. And also the quiet lines in the vienna almost always transpose in the bishops game.




  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #28 - 12/16/04 at 13:05:49
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Where is the problem in getting this? I imitate something because it is successfull (but not because it is played by GMs). Of course the success is proved among GMs, where else you want to prove it? If it is successfull among GMs it will be the same same story among clubplayers (maybe not among beginners).

The Sicilian is more successfull then any e5-answer ever will be because of the specific character of this move. It is a counter attack starting right from the first move on.
...e5 has a by far more defending character, following the play of the white side while with 1...c5 black creates by tendency his own play.

As I told already: I am sure that in 80 % of e5-answers I find a variation for White that scores above 60 %. I will not be able to find such a variation in most Open Sicilians.

Thats why for the aggressive player the Sicilian is the first choice.

That games below 2000 are anyway decided by tactics or blunders in the middlegame, is for sure true. But this dont hinders me from taking the little advantage that grants me the right choice of openings for my opening repertoire.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #27 - 12/16/04 at 12:48:28
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[quote} This is absolutely not true! 
I - and for sure many other clubplayers with me - care not about imitation of GMs but about chances for winning with black. So when I look at an opening, I search through chess databases (Chessbase 8.0) and in nearly all e4 e5 openings I find the one or other variation that scores above 60 % for White.

In contrary the scores for Black in the Sicilian are in very much variations about something like 52/48 % (sometimes even better for Black!). ] [/quote]

This is confusing to me, on the one hand you say you aren't immitating gms but on the other you look at databases (full of gm games) to decide what opening to play. It's not because an opening is more succesful at the highest level that this is also true for us amateurs. I for one find the sicilian too complex for me and think I can get more my kind of games with e4 e5.
I believe the openings you play should mostly depend on your style, not on flawed statistics.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #26 - 12/16/04 at 12:43:57
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Quote:
Markovich wrote: "...Much of its popularity (Sicilian opening) at lower levels, I think, has to do with the inclination many of lower-level players to imitate the big boys."

This is absolutely not true!
I - and for sure many other clubplayers with me - care not about imitation of GMs but about chances for winning with black. So when I look at an opening, I search through chess databases (Chessbase 8.0) and in nearly all e4 e5 openings I find the one or other variation that scores above 60 % for White.

In contrary the scores for Black in the Sicilian are in very much variations about something like 52/48 % (sometimes even better for Black!).

This says something about counterplay and about effectivity and winning chances.

I play the Sicilian because it is successfull! No other reason.


The statistics you quote are mainly from high-level competition, so it appears that you play the Sicilian because it is successful at high levels.    

Further, I respectfully doubt that the Sicilian produces more winning chances for Black at the club level than anything else does.  Below 2000, play is so uneven that the better player will generally win no matter what the system.  I am 2200+ myself, and own play is depressingly uneven.  Like I said, I think even the Petroff is a perfectly good winning try for club-level play, and I would say the same of the Philidor.  Certainly 1...e5, 2...Nc6 is. 

In any case, I'm sure you'll agree that it really is a fool's game to base one's choice of opening system on statistics. 

Want to win with little study against the Slav at the club level?  Forget your latest theory and just play the Exchange all the time.  So what if it only scores 50.1% among 2400+ players?  One reason for that is that it's seldom played for a win.  White's ideas are straightforward and the defense requires some sophistication.  Play it well and you will win.

I've played chess for a long time, though perhaps not as well as I would have wished, and I really do believe that there is a lot of imitation of GMs in the opening choices of lower-level players.   The Tarrasch, for example, has essentially never been subject to a major theoretical reappraisal, yet it was quite unpopular until the young Kasparov made it his weapon.  I remember a local chess expert, back in the 1960s, pointing at the IQP and saying that that the Tarrasch was terribly weakening.
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #25 - 12/16/04 at 12:29:54
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@Panda
with a base of at least several hundred games in Chessbase 8.0 this is very unlikely to happen.

Why you e4/e5 guys have so big problems in accepting that the Sicilian is the most successfull opening and no black defense vs. e4 starting with ...e5 will ever reach this success?
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #24 - 12/16/04 at 12:25:43
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Blindly following the database's +60 % will most likely sometimes lead you into bad variations, refuted by theory, but repeated and won by lesser players against other lesser players.

And if you avoid that by selecting only games with +2400 average, you will in effect be following the grandmasters, like it or not!  Grin
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #23 - 12/16/04 at 11:46:37
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Markovich wrote: "...Much of its popularity (Sicilian opening) at lower levels, I think, has to do with the inclination many of lower-level players to imitate the big boys."

This is absolutely not true!
I - and for sure many other clubplayers with me - care not about imitation of GMs but about chances for winning with black. So when I look at an opening, I search through chess databases (Chessbase 8.0) and in nearly all e4 e5 openings I find the one or other variation that scores above 60 % for White.

In contrary the scores for Black in the Sicilian are in very much variations about something like 52/48 % (sometimes even better for Black!).

This says something about counterplay and about effectivity and winning chances.

I play the Sicilian because it is successfull! No other reason.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #22 - 12/16/04 at 09:41:56
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You write way too fast for me! Smiley  I better get in the habit of quoting part of the messge I'm replying to.
Quote:
In most forms of the Siciilian, White need not play all that precisely to get a reasonable game.  But after 1...e5, White and Black typically change roles after just one imprecise move by the first player.


Not sure I agree. White has to play pretty precisely in most of the open Sicilians, it seems to me.  Although the non-open Sicilian lines are much more forgiving of inaccuracy, so are many lines after 1.e4 e5 -- quiet lines of the Vienna/Bishop's opening, many lines of the Four Knights and the Scotch Four Knights, the Gioucuo Pianissimo, the Exchange Lopez.

  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #21 - 12/16/04 at 09:28:30
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I seem to have taken too long to edit my last message.  It was meant as a reply to D-K's last, rather than to Markovich.  (Who I basicall agree with as well, anyway.)
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #20 - 12/16/04 at 09:27:56
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No, it's a _triumph_.  50 games as Black, and only seven times did White even _try_ for an advantage?  As Black, I'll take 7 in my favored main lines and 43 games games out of 50 with easy equality--because that's what that motley collection of anti-Sicilians gives White--any time. 

You can't get the exact kind of position you want every game, especially as Black.  Chess simply does not work like that.

If your friend starts playing 1.e4 e5, he'll wind up complaining about facing King's Gambits, Danishes, Vienna Games, and so on.

There is really no subsitute for learning to play against sidelines and less popular lines, no matter what opening you play.


I agree with most of what you say, particularly, "You can't get the exact kind of position you want every game, especially as Black. "

But it is fair to point out that 1...c5 does allow White much more lattitude than 1...e5 does. 

In most forms of the Siciilian, White need not play all that precisely to get a reasonable game.  But after 1...e5, White and Black typically change roles after just one imprecise move by the first player.   The popularity of the Sicilian at high levels has to do, of course, with Black's need to produce wins against strong opposition.  Much of its popularity at lower levels, I think, has to do with the inclination many of lower-level players to imitate the big boys.
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #19 - 12/16/04 at 09:25:48
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A-men. Wink

The big difference between the Sicilian, and defences where Black is only aiming at equality is this:  in the Petroff, say, by the time Black establishes equality usually a lot of pieces have been traded and the position is kind of dry.  In most anti-Sicilians, White gives Black equality immediately without a struggle, and so the board is still full of pieces--there's plenty of time to  just play chess and look for an opportunity to tear it up.

If your friend doesn't already have Rogozenko's book on anti-Sicilians, he should get it.  Rogozenko is often happy with equalizing lines, but almost always offers more unclear stuff as well.  (Sometimes just in the notes, like in some Rossillimo lines.)  In any case, it's a good starting place.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #18 - 12/16/04 at 09:17:53
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Quote:
So D-K's friend thinks the Alapin etc. dull for Black. What will he think of the 4-knight's game, the quiet variations of the Vienna and Bishop's Game etc.?
But OK, as I have already proved in another thread 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 d5? almost loses by force (thanks to Harding in his book on the Bishop's Game of 1973). If Black strives for d7-d5, he should try 4...Be7 5.o-o o-o 6.c3 d5 or 6.Bb3 d5, but alas White has also 6.Re1 when d5 is bad again.
Also possible is 4...Bc5 as both in the Canal Variation and the Giuoco Pianissimo there are some sharp variations for Black, directed against f2.
The Rousseau Gambit 3...f5 is more than dubious; after eg 4.d3 White has a variation of the Jänisch-Schliemann Gambit with an extra tempo.
Wa-aleikum salam.



Yes, I think in general that you will have a troubled life in chess if you MUST play some certain kind of game, particularly if you insist on gambit-style play.
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #17 - 12/16/04 at 09:12:32
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Quote:
after
1)e4 e5 2)Nf3 Nc6 3)Bc4 Nf6 4)d3

Black can play 4...d5 . Maybe Black is slightly worse here but I think  that move is playable on 2000 ELO level and it does not  lead to dull and symetrical position.



I agree entirely.  Further I question that 4. d3 Bc5 is "dull with no counterplay for Black."  Black has just as much play as White does, and he has a number of quite interesting ways to go, depending on how White plays. 

In any case, not always in chess is it possible to insist on gambit-like play.  Sometimes you just have to say, "Well, it's a chess game," and find a way to win.

I think a lot of talk about this or that line being drawish applies only at relatively high levels.  For example, I think that below 2000 (and probably even higher) 1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nf6 can be played without reduced expectation of taking the full point, and the same is true of Black's side of the Guioco Piano.

  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #16 - 12/16/04 at 04:09:14
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My chess collegue is already back to our Sveshnikov/Kalashnikov-family! Was a short try to leave our sect. Wink

First reason: he was shocked how many openings he would have been prepared for, when answering with 1...e5, he counted about 10!

Secondly there was several openings in the e4/e5 family where in his subjective like/dislike the black position were even worse then at a closed Sicilian, for example the kings gambit declined if White plays 4. c3 or the Scotch Game.

True seems also, that if White goes for a positional setup without much tactics, he can reach this not only in the Sicilian but also in the e4/e5-family (as Mnb wrote before: 4knights, positional variation of Vienna etc.).

Like I always say: there is nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing in this (chess) world, that offers black better scores then 1... c5. Where else you find so many variations where black scores even better then White? Grin

  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #15 - 12/16/04 at 03:35:13
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Quote:
as I have already proved in another thread 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 d5? almost loses by force (thanks to Harding in his book on the Bishop's Game of 1973)



Loses by force? no, no ,no

5.e:d5 S:d5 6.O-O Bg4 7.Re1 Qd6

and Black is slightly worse maybe, but no more.

  
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Dutch-Kalashnikov
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #14 - 12/16/04 at 02:33:20
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Mnb wrote: ....."What will he think of the 4-knight's game, the quiet variations of the Vienna and Bishop's Game etc.?"

Good argument!
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #13 - 12/15/04 at 18:55:58
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It seems like a petite over-reaction to give up the Sicilian Sveshnikov and all the work learning it, simply because of some internet blitz games.

Does your friend not play serious tournaments? In tournament play, white usually play the open main lines or 2.c3 and 2.Nc3 but little else.

But in 3+0 on the net, it's more important to play fast than correct. Besides, stronger player tend to avoid their own repertoire on the net. I recently saw a 3+0 game between two +2500 Russian GMs at playchess.com, it began: 1.h4 h5 2.a4 a5 3.e4 Nc6 4.Nf3 e5, reminiscent of the Ströbecker starting position and very convenient when you have 20-50 spectactors watching every game!  Lips Sealed Cheesy
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #12 - 12/15/04 at 18:26:44
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So D-K's friend thinks the Alapin etc. dull for Black. What will he think of the 4-knight's game, the quiet variations of the Vienna and Bishop's Game etc.?
But OK, as I have already proved in another thread 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 d5? almost loses by force (thanks to Harding in his book on the Bishop's Game of 1973). If Black strives for d7-d5, he should try 4...Be7 5.o-o o-o 6.c3 d5 or 6.Bb3 d5, but alas White has also 6.Re1 when d5 is bad again.
Also possible is 4...Bc5 as both in the Canal Variation and the Giuoco Pianissimo there are some sharp variations for Black, directed against f2.
The Rousseau Gambit 3...f5 is more than dubious; after eg 4.d3 White has a variation of the Jänisch-Schliemann Gambit with an extra tempo.
Wa-aleikum salam.
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #11 - 12/15/04 at 17:38:53
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A-men  Wink
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #10 - 12/15/04 at 15:57:20
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Against the italian 3. ... f5 (rousseau gambit) is also what I play, although it is dangerous if white has prepared for you cause it is not very sound, but I have played it several times in serious games above 2000 level without ever getting big troubles. There are 2 extensive articles on it in the archives of the skittles room on www.chesscafe.com by tim mcgrew. There is also a very nice trick in it that works everytime in blitz, even won with it several times against gmsand other masters : 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5 4.d4! fxe4 5.Nxe5 d5 6.Qh5+? g6 7.Nxg6? and white loses by force.

about the comment of Ed Gaillard:
" No, it's a _triumph_.  50 games as Black, and only seven times did White even _try_ for an advantage?  "

If your ambition is to equalise with black then this is a succes, if your ambition is to get exciting, tactical  positions with black then this is depressing. As most of the anti-sicilians don't exactly lead to wild positions.

"If your friend starts playing 1.e4 e5, he'll wind up complaining about facing King's Gambits, Danishes, Vienna Games, and so on.  "

Kings gambits, danishes and vienna games all lead to exciting, tactical and open positions. Compare this to alapin, rossolimo and closed sicilians and I would think there is a difference.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #9 - 12/15/04 at 11:58:47
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A-men
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #8 - 12/15/04 at 11:14:14
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Quote:
But the relation of playing 50 games Sicilian and 7 times meeting an Open Sicilian is a desaster!


No, it's a _triumph_.  50 games as Black, and only seven times did White even _try_ for an advantage?  As Black, I'll take 7 in my favored main lines and 43 games games out of 50 with easy equality--because that's what that motley collection of anti-Sicilians gives White--any time. 

You can't get the exact kind of position you want every game, especially as Black.  Chess simply does not work like that.

If your friend starts playing 1.e4 e5, he'll wind up complaining about facing King's Gambits, Danishes, Vienna Games, and so on.

There is really no subsitute for learning to play against sidelines and less popular lines, no matter what opening you play.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #7 - 12/15/04 at 10:59:23
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True, that some Anti-Sic. are really bullshit (2. Bc4 for example).
But other Anti-Sic. (closed, SM, Rossolimo) take away from White the opening advantage and lead to an equal game - but with positions that are exactly the opposite of what a Sveshnikov/Kalashnikov-player is looking for.
I suppose, a Sveshnikov-player better plays a Sveshnikov that is considered slightly better for White then a closed Sicilian with equal scores.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #6 - 12/15/04 at 10:36:21
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giving up the sicilian because the anti-sicilians is ... ridiculous .
There is no good anti-sicilian!
Plus giving it up for the spanish 3.....f5 is very weird. At master level it does not gonna work very well.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #5 - 12/15/04 at 10:08:05
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After some closer look at ...., 4. d3 d5, 5. exd5 Nxd5 I would say it is too unsound. This tells me at least my database who says that there are impressing 67 % for white compared with 33 % for black (55 % white wins, 25 % draws, 20 % black wins, counting only games>2000).

@alumbrado I understand what you mean and you are for sure in some way right. But the relation of playing 50 games Sicilian and 7 times meeting an Open Sicilian is a desaster!
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #4 - 12/15/04 at 09:53:03
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well, 3... f5 might be a good idea in the Spanish but I am not anymore sure whether it is a good idea in the Italian (f7-threat).

@Dzambus: thanks, will have a look on it, maybe thats the solution.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #3 - 12/15/04 at 09:32:56
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If we all changed our openings every time we got a position we just didn't happen to like, then most of us would be trying out 1...a5 and 1...h5 by now ...

You can't always get a particular type of position - no miracle opening, no clever move order, can deliver this.  The thing is to look for openings where the *main lines* lead to positions you are comfortable with, but where the sidelines, even if you are less happy, are less likely to be played and also less threatening.  Frankly, it can't do any harm to study different position types anyway.

For example, I am going to be taking up the French in the New Year (I really am unhappy with some of the positions I have been getting in the *main lines* of my usual opening, the Pirc).  Now, there is no point playing the French if you don't like blocked pawn centres, *but* you also need to be prepared to play the Exchange Variation ...
  

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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #2 - 12/15/04 at 09:14:33
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Quote:
The first, he did today, is to ask me for a change in this opening repertoire. He dont trusts the Scandi, would never play the Alekhine, not to mention French or Caro or Pirc or Modern, so his choice should be e4 e5.

His style is generally aggressive, he played so far the Sveshnikov (and the Dutch vs. d4), he likes very much to attack kingside.

At first he started with some quick look on the Spanish and was very glad that he liked both 3... f5 (e4 e5, Nf3 Nc6, Bb5) and also 3...a6, 4. Ba4 f5.

But then the big problem occured. Thats why he asked me. What to play against 3. Bc4?
I have no idea what to tell him.
Both 3. ... Nf6 (if met with 4. d3) and 3. Bc5 seems to end in dull, symmetrical positions with no counterplay for Black.

Is this the end for his wish to change his opening repertoire?

after
1)e4 e5 2)Nf3 Nc6 3)Bc4 Nf6 4)d3

Black can play 4...d5 . Maybe Black is slightly worse here but I think  that move is playable on 2000 ELO level and it does not  lead to dull and symetrical position.
  
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Re: Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive pla
Reply #1 - 12/15/04 at 09:13:42
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When looking at the ECO-codes for 3. Bc4 I probably found something interesting for him: why not play the Italian game with 3... f5 ? (if he likes Spanish with 3... f5).
Possible would be maybe also 4... f5 in the Italian but this works only after 4. c3 not after 4. Nc3 and 4. 0-0.
  
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Opening repertoire e4 e5 for an aggressive player
12/15/04 at 08:50:10
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One of my chess collegues (a Sicilian Sveshnikov player, but only so far) intends to change his opening repertoire with black vs. e4 as he is completely distroyed after one day of internet chess when trying to get a Sveshnikov on the board to try a new variation, as he in over 40 games nearly never had the possibility to meet an Open Sicilian. He sent me now his list from his yesterdays experience on playchess.com. It is really unbelievable! He got
3 times 3. Nc3
3 times closed Sicilian
5 times Alapin-setup
1 time 2. d3
5 times Smith-Morra
2 times 2. c4
2 times Grandprix-Attack with 2. f4
3 times 3. g3
3 times 3. d3
3 times 2. Bc4
3 times 3. Bc4
2 times 3. Lc4
9 times deviations in the 6th move like Nb3, Nf3 etc.
and finally 7 Sveshnikovs Grin

From 50 games intended to play the Sveshni he suceeded in less then 15 % !!!

He is really disturbed!

The first, he did today, is to ask me for a change in this opening repertoire. He dont trusts the Scandi, would never play the Alekhine, not to mention French or Caro or Pirc or Modern, so his choice should be e4 e5.

His style is generally aggressive, he played so far the Sveshnikov (and the Dutch vs. d4), he likes very much to attack kingside.

At first he started with some quick look on the Spanish and was very glad that he liked both 3... f5 (e4 e5, Nf3 Nc6, Bb5) and also 3...a6, 4. Ba4 f5.

But then the big problem occured. Thats why he asked me. What to play against 3. Bc4?
I have no idea what to tell him.
Both 3. ... Nf6 (if met with 4. d3) and 3. Bc5 seems to end in dull, symmetrical positions with no counterplay for Black.

Is this the end for his wish to change his opening repertoire?
  
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