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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Opinions wanted on the Veresov (Read 53540 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #37 - 09/24/07 at 17:00:28
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/24/07 at 12:45:33:
Topnotch,

One anecdote does not proof make.  Still, the question of whether the Queen is badly placed on d3 in the French is at least interesting.  The more pertinent question for this conversation is whether it's better or worse than the average Veresov game, which is decidely in Black's favor.  

I don't know that answer.  I do know that the most dedicated Veresov master in my area plays Qd3 and e4 when he doesn't have the opportunity to switch to a French.  His results are good enough to keep at master level, but I 've always thought his tactics and technical skills deserved more effort in the opening.  I've always felt that the Veresov is a bit of a lazy repertoire.


On a forum such as this how many anecdotes must one give to illustrate a point?

Very well I will give another instructive fragment to illustrate why I prefer an early c6 rather than e6:

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 Nbd7 4. Qd3 h6 5. Bh4 c6 6. e4?? [Eminently playable after 5...e6 as shown in the Conquest game given earlier, but here it just loses] dxe4 7. Nxe4 Nxe4 8. Qxe4 Qa5+! [The key tactic] 9. c3 g5 10. Bg3 f5 And Black wins a piece.

I hope the above example shows how devious and effective an early c6 can be against the Veresov.

Toppy Smiley

  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #36 - 09/24/07 at 12:45:33
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Topnotch,

One anecdote does not proof make.  Still, the question of whether the Queen is badly placed on d3 in the French is at least interesting.  The more pertinent question for this conversation is whether it's better or worse than the average Veresov game, which is decidely in Black's favor. 

I don't know that answer.  I do know that the most dedicated Veresov master in my area plays Qd3 and e4 when he doesn't have the opportunity to switch to a French.  His results are good enough to keep at master level, but I 've always thought his tactics and technical skills deserved more effort in the opening.  I've always felt that the Veresov is a bit of a lazy repertoire.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #35 - 09/23/07 at 07:49:21
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realpolitik wrote on 08/21/07 at 18:45:41:
After the Qd3 suggestion of some posters, Rizzitano recommends h6 and e6. Attempts by white to play e4 just to seem to result in a bad French for white, where his queen is misplaced on d3. All in all Rizzitanos coverage of the Veresov seems fairly conclusive. I haven't played the Veresov since looking at his dismissal of it.


Is it really such a bad French for White. Witness the following instructive:

[Event "XLVIII TCh-POR"]
[Site "Evora POR"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Conquest,S"]
[Black "Sokolov,And1"]
[Round "3"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2534"]
[BlackElo "2589"]
[ECO "A45"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 Nbd7 4. Qd3 h6 5. Bh4 e6 6. e4 dxe4 7. Nxe4 Be7 8. Nxf6+ Bxf6 9. Bxf6
Qxf6 10. Nf3 O-O 11. Qe3 c5 12. O-O-O b6 13. Bb5 cxd4 14. Rxd4 Qe7 15. g4 Nf6 16. g5 hxg5 17. Qxg5 Bb7 18. Rg1 g6 19. Rd7 Qxd7 20. Bxd7 Nxd7 21. Nh4 Be4 22. Rg4 Bf5 23. Nxf5 exf5 24. Qxf5 Rad8 25. Qg5 Nc5 26. Rh4 Rfe8 27. b3 Kg7 28. Qh6+ Kf6 29. Rf4+ Ke6 30. Qg7 Rf8 31. Rf6+ Ke7 32. Rxg6 Ne6 33. Qf6+ Ke8 34. Rg4 Rd5 35. h4 1-0


See what I mean.

Much more effective in my opinion is 5...c6 [instead of 5...e6] intending moves like b5 and Qa5 in anticipation of White's intended 0-0-0.

Toppy Smiley
  

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realpolitik
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #34 - 08/21/07 at 18:45:41
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BlkSabb wrote on 08/18/07 at 04:36:54:
realpolitik wrote on 08/17/07 at 21:51:59:
what does the veresov player do against the set up recommended by Rizzitano in beating 1d4?

1d4 d5 2Nf3 Nf6 3Bg5 Nbd7 4e3 e6 5Bd3 c5
1d4 d5 2Nf3 Nf6 3Bg5 Nbd7 4f3 c6 5e4 de 6fe e5

Seems like Black has easy play in both these lines, white may be able to equalize but that seems about it.


That's the Torre Attack.  You need to throw a Nc3 in there instead of Nf3.


Yeah I meant 2Nc3, it would be kinda hard to play 4f3 with a knight on f3.
After the Qd3 suggestion of some posters, Rizzitano recommends h6 and e6. Attempts by white to play e4 just to seem to result in a bad French for white, where his queen is misplaced on d3. All in all Rizzitanos coverage of the Veresov seems fairly conclusive. I haven't played the Veresov since looking at his dismissal of it.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #33 - 08/18/07 at 05:20:55
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BlkSabb:

Good catch!  I was so wrapped up in the Veresov theme that I didn't even look at realpolitik's second move.  I just presumed he was still talking about the Veresov.  Of course, it's rather difficult to play 2.Nf3, 3.Bg5 and 4.f3. Embarrassed
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #32 - 08/18/07 at 04:36:54
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realpolitik wrote on 08/17/07 at 21:51:59:
what does the veresov player do against the set up recommended by Rizzitano in beating 1d4?

1d4 d5 2Nf3 Nf6 3Bg5 Nbd7 4e3 e6 5Bd3 c5
1d4 d5 2Nf3 Nf6 3Bg5 Nbd7 4f3 c6 5e4 de 6fe e5

Seems like Black has easy play in both these lines, white may be able to equalize but that seems about it.


That's the Torre Attack.  You need to throw a Nc3 in there instead of Nf3.
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #31 - 08/18/07 at 03:20:26
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It seems that 3...Nbd7 has always (well, for the last quarter-century or so at least) been considered the main line, but not clearly better than some other moves.

I know of a GM and an IM (Jonny Hector and Jakob Vang Glud) who sometimes play (3...Nbd7) 4. Qd3.  Rizzitano gives a few bits on it (he likes 4...h6 5. Bh4 e6).  It seems a bit surprising that ECO (from 2004) doesn't mention it (NCO, which came out 5 years earlier, does; its main line is 4...c5!?).
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #30 - 08/18/07 at 03:17:43
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I just ran a databae check of all Veresov games played between players over 2300 since 1976.  I guessed the stats would show White having about an even score.  I was way off!

White scores only about 45% to Black's 55% after 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5.

I don't know for sure whether Bg5 or Nc3 is the bigger mistake, but Black should be very happy to see the Veresov!
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #29 - 08/18/07 at 02:29:57
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I have an old book on the Veresov by Chess Digest (1984) which calls 3.Nbd7 the main line.  (Pls bear with me, I have to translate it from descriptive notation.)  One old game, Smyslov-Geller (USSR 1977) continued:

1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Nbd7 4.Qd3!? (my mark) e6 5.e4 de4 (Suetin recommends Bb4!?) 6.Nxe4 Be7 7.Nf6 Bf6 (Nf6 is probably slightly better) 8.Bf6 Nf6 9.Nf3 0-0 10.Be2 b6 11.0-0 (Chess Digest suggests 11.0-0-0!) Bb7 12.Rfd1 Be4 13.Qb3 with an edge to White.


Realpolitik's second line (4.f3 with 6...e5) had already been played by several strong players.  In 1984, the state of the art line was:

7.de5 Qa5 8.Bf6 gf6 9.e6 fe6 10.Bc4 Bb4 11.Nge2 Ne5 12.Bb3 and then Black has a choice between 12...Rg8 and Bd7.  Both moves give Black reasonable play according to Chess Digest (1984).  Some of the analysis is from Gufeld who drew as Black against Rosetto in Camaguey, 1974.

There's no verbal description of the moves and I distrust dusty lines like these.  However, White would have to work hard to find serious improvements.  I'll check my database later if anyone is still interested.


Personally, I like the dangerous Qd3 maneuver for White in a practical game.  I've seen a local master rack up win after win against experts by playing this way.  He supposedly trained with Spassky and Krogius before being sent off for being criminally insane.  (He is a Doctor of Psychology.)
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #28 - 08/17/07 at 21:51:59
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what does the veresov player do against the set up recommended by Rizzitano in beating 1d4?

1d4 d5 2Nf3 Nf6 3Bg5 Nbd7 4e3 e6 5Bd3 c5
1d4 d5 2Nf3 Nf6 3Bg5 Nbd7 4f3 c6 5e4 de 6fe e5

Seems like Black has easy play in both these lines, white may be able to equalize but that seems about it.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #27 - 08/17/07 at 15:05:18
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My biggest problem with 3...c6 is not that it's bad, but it seems to play into White's plan.  Maybe Black can play 3...Bf5 and only then c6.  The idea behind this move order is that it stops both e4 (after ...e6) and Qd3 (immediately).  I used to have success with it, but I currently just go into French lines and do well enough. (1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.e4 Be7 is a Classical French.)
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #26 - 08/17/07 at 09:20:39
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I just watched Martin's section on the Veresov in his new Queen's Pawn Chessbase DVD.  He recommends 3...c6 which he says he's recommended in previous work.  He presents some very interesting and entertaining games but he mostly has White playing terrible moves and falling flat on his face.  Even if he did cover critical tries, his three small videos can't possibly be enough to prepare a Black player to face the Veresov.  Still, it inspired me to take a closer look at the 3...c6 lines.
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #25 - 05/30/05 at 03:00:31
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Yeah right. They must be joking, if they don't seem to agree with mine opinion, mustn't they.
On the other hand, there are quite some examples around of players choosing some non-standard opening line and getting away with it. But perhaps we can also attribute this to the superior sense of humor of their adversaries, not resenting to lose a game in the least if there's such a good laugh in it.
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #24 - 05/26/05 at 07:07:05
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Well, AFTER that game Kasparov was obviously in the right mood for joking.
And he gave to the masses what they wanted to hear ...

1.Nc3: "A clever choice ..."  Grin Grin Grin

tracke Smiley
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #23 - 05/26/05 at 04:17:23
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Well, I just saw this game Morozevitch-Kasparov : 1. Nc3, ... to which Kasparov replied ... c5.
The commentator writes : As pointed out by Kasparov after the game, "It's a clever choice as I cannot play 1 ..d5 as Alexander can play 2 d4 with a reversed Chigorin his favourite - and extra move!"
Not exactly a condemnation of the Veresov/reversed Chigorin, quite on the contrary, and coming from someone who knows something about these things.
  
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