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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Opinions wanted on the Veresov (Read 37820 times)
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #67 - 05/01/20 at 19:22:45
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LeeRoth wrote on 05/01/20 at 16:40:32:
TopNotch wrote on 05/01/20 at 14:55:11:
I just got an email from a friend alerting me that Hammer also gives 3...h6 in his Black Repertoire course on chess24. Looks like the virtues of this line against the Veresov is better known and appreciated than I thought.


Hammer's recommendations are fairly aggressive (for a video that recommends the Lasker as the main 1.d4 defense).  For example, after 4.Bh4 Nbd7 5.Nf3 he opts for e6 6.e4 g5 7.Bg3 Nxe4 8.Nxe4 dxe4 9.Nd2 f5 10.Qh5+ Ke7.

The Lasker is very sharp and aggressive, for all of one move. Smiley

Looking at 3...h6 with fresh eyes, it seems to be a decent move order into some of the same things I am aiming for with 3...Nbd7. Thanks for posting Hammer's line.
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #66 - 05/01/20 at 19:19:32
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LeeRoth wrote on 05/01/20 at 16:40:32:
TopNotch wrote on 05/01/20 at 14:55:11:
I just got an email from a friend alerting me that Hammer also gives 3...h6 in his Black Repertoire course on chess24. Looks like the virtues of this line against the Veresov is better known and appreciated than I thought.


Hammer's recommendations are fairly aggressive (for a video that recommends the Lasker as the main 1.d4 defense).  For example, after 4.Bh4 Nbd7 5.Nf3 he opts for e6 6.e4 g5 7.Bg3 Nxe4 8.Nxe4 dxe4 9.Nd2 f5 10.Qh5+ Ke7.


Indeed, in general he is aggressive against rare sidelines but more solid and respectful against main ones. It's a good approach, one should seek to punish rare sidelines when and wherever possible. There should be a cost for laziness.
  

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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #65 - 05/01/20 at 16:40:32
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TopNotch wrote on 05/01/20 at 14:55:11:
I just got an email from a friend alerting me that Hammer also gives 3...h6 in his Black Repertoire course on chess24. Looks like the virtues of this line against the Veresov is better known and appreciated than I thought.


Hammer's recommendations are fairly aggressive (for a video that recommends the Lasker as the main 1.d4 defense).  For example, after 4.Bh4 Nbd7 5.Nf3 he opts for e6 6.e4 g5 7.Bg3 Nxe4 8.Nxe4 dxe4 9.Nd2 f5 10.Qh5+ Ke7.






  
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TopNotch
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #64 - 05/01/20 at 14:55:11
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I just got an email from a friend alerting me that Hammer also gives 3...h6 in his Black Repertoire course on chess24. Looks like the virtues of this line against the Veresov is better known and appreciated than I thought.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Stigma
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #63 - 04/30/20 at 22:55:15
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Seeley wrote on 04/30/20 at 22:26:28:
Stigma wrote on 04/30/20 at 20:13:26:
I knew i should have picked up that Eljanov database when it was on a discount last month!

You can almost certainly still get a big discount. In my experience, it's always been possible to save at least 25 per cent, and usually 30 per cent, on the published prices of the databases. Try Googling 'coupon code Modern Chess' or some such.

Thanks for the tip!

I have picked up several of their databases on discounts and even "double discounts" (both discounted "Database of the Month" and promo code) lately. But even with that I try to avoid going completely overboard. I don't have time to study all of it anyway.  Smiley

Still, an unusually high number of their recent databases have been of interest to me. So Eljanov lost out, mainly because I rarely play 1...Nf6/2...e6. I'm more of a ...g6 guy, at least for now.
  

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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #62 - 04/30/20 at 22:26:28
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Stigma wrote on 04/30/20 at 20:13:26:
I knew i should have picked up that Eljanov database when it was on a discount last month!

You can almost certainly still get a big discount. In my experience, it's always been possible to save at least 25 per cent, and usually 30 per cent, on the published prices of the databases. Try Googling 'coupon code Modern Chess' or some such.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #61 - 04/30/20 at 21:20:07
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Stigma wrote on 04/30/20 at 20:13:26:
TopNotch wrote on 04/30/20 at 19:03:42:
Yes I was aware of both, but Kaufman's analysis is superficial. Eljanov's analysis is much better, but he puts the black knight on b6 while my analysis indicates that the f6 square is even more promising. In any case 3...h6 looks like a very simple and attractive antidote to the Veresov, unless I'm missing something.

Hmm, yes, there is something a bit weird about Kaufman using these top-flight engines to produce lots of superficial analysis. What's the point of all that engine power if you're not going in depth?

I knew i should have picked up that Eljanov database when it was on a discount last month! Oh well, I will get it eventually when countering the Veresov becomes a top priority. I have plenty of more urgent holes to patch in my repertoire...


I have gotten the impression, especially with Kaufman's latest book that he often quotes engine evaluations without a clear understanding of what's really going on himself. The other thing is that I think he bit off more than he could chew with his
insistence on continuing the one tome White/Black Repertoire series, in the end it was simply too much ground to cover and what we were left with was many tasty appetizers but an under cooked main course.
  

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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #60 - 04/30/20 at 20:13:26
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TopNotch wrote on 04/30/20 at 19:03:42:
Yes I was aware of both, but Kaufman's analysis is superficial. Eljanov's analysis is much better, but he puts the black knight on b6 while my analysis indicates that the f6 square is even more promising. In any case 3...h6 looks like a very simple and attractive antidote to the Veresov, unless I'm missing something.

Hmm, yes, there is something a bit weird about Kaufman using these top-flight engines to produce lots of superficial analysis. What's the point of all that engine power if you're not going in depth?

I knew i should have picked up that Eljanov database when it was on a discount last month! Oh well, I will get it eventually when countering the Veresov becomes a top priority. I have plenty of more urgent holes to patch in my repertoire...
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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TopNotch
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #59 - 04/30/20 at 19:03:42
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Stigma wrote on 04/30/20 at 17:47:44:
TopNotch wrote on 04/30/20 at 16:25:31:

Studying Sam's line and in particular the pawn structure led me to a startling discovery. The counter intuitive move 3...h6! is a very strong and effective solution for Black, I have always been aware that 3...h6 existed against the Veresov but never really took it seriously until now after taking a close analytical look.

What say you guys in 2020 regarding the Veresov.

I don't know if you're aware of it, but 3...h6 has been recommended for Black recently in both the new Kaufman repertoire and a database by Pavel Eljanov for Modern Chess. So it's bound to become more popular.


Yes I was aware of both, but Kaufman's analysis is superficial. Eljanov's analysis is much better, but he puts the black knight on b6 while my analysis indicates that the f6 square is even more promising. In any case 3...h6 looks like a very simple and attractive antidote to the Veresov, unless I'm missing something.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #58 - 04/30/20 at 18:59:22
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Jupp53 wrote on 04/30/20 at 17:22:04:
Having tried the Veresov I met the line on my level ~FIDE 2000 and continuing with 4.Bxf6 Black gets an equal position with gxf6 and White is playing for two results after 4... exf6. e3 and c4 are leading to a structure with good prospects on the queenside.

Disclaimer: No master answering


How do you get the pawn to c4 when your Knight is already on c3?
  

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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #57 - 04/30/20 at 18:01:31
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3...h6 was already recommended by Kaufman in his 2012 edition, he argues that after 4.Bxf6 exf6 White's knight on c3 is misplaced
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #56 - 04/30/20 at 17:57:18
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I agree with Jupp53's assessment, and I feel the same way about the Trompowsky 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 d5 3.Bxf6 gxf6 (=) vs 3...exf6 (two results). In the Veresov I have long felt that black is doing okay with any third move, but given how rarely I see it 3...Nbd7 is the most practical choice.
  
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #55 - 04/30/20 at 17:47:44
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TopNotch wrote on 04/30/20 at 16:25:31:

Studying Sam's line and in particular the pawn structure led me to a startling discovery. The counter intuitive move 3...h6! is a very strong and effective solution for Black, I have always been aware that 3...h6 existed against the Veresov but never really took it seriously until now after taking a close analytical look.

What say you guys in 2020 regarding the Veresov.

I don't know if you're aware of it, but 3...h6 has been recommended for Black recently in both the new Kaufman repertoire and a database by Pavel Eljanov for Modern Chess. So it's bound to become more popular.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #54 - 04/30/20 at 17:22:04
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Having tried the Veresov I met the line on my level ~FIDE 2000 and continuing with 4.Bxf6 Black gets an equal position with gxf6 and White is playing for two results after 4... exf6. e3 and c4 are leading to a structure with good prospects on the queenside.

Disclaimer: No master answering
  

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TopNotch
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Re: Opinions wanted on the Veresov
Reply #53 - 04/30/20 at 16:25:31
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Forgive me for reviving a very old thread, but this topic has been on my mind recently, ever since watching Sam Shankland's chessable course. There he gives: 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Bf5!? 4.f3 The only sensible move for White according to Sam 4...Nbd7 and goes on to show how Black is doing well, while being very dismissive of the Versov in general at various points in the video clip, although he does admit that Black needs to know what he is doing.

I love authors with strong opinions who are not afraid to state them, and back them up with analysis if necessary. Sam fits the bill in spades, but I have my doubts about how easy 3...Bf5 really is for Black. I agree with Sam that the Veresov is not that great, and the lines he gave looked so appealing that I was ready to abandon my ole faithful 3...Nbd7, however when taking a closer look at the line and reviewing the games of top practitioners for White I came to the conclusion that things are not so simple, in particular the bishop on f5 can accelerate a White attack with g4 and h4 in some lines and looks rather unclear to me. The last thing you want when facing a rare opening, is an unclear messy position that your opponent is more familiar with than you whatever the objective merits.

Studying Sam's line and in particular the pawn structure led me to a startling discovery. The counter intuitive move 3...h6! is a very strong and effective solution for Black, I have always been aware that 3...h6 existed against the Veresov but never really took it seriously until now after taking a close analytical look.

What say you guys in 2020 regarding the Veresov.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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