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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C12: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon (Read 84234 times)
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Re: C12: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #93 - 08/12/13 at 16:49:14
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ghenghisclown wrote on 08/11/13 at 18:55:58:
Yeah, I looked at it.
I also don't like it and I don't believe in it.

It seemed to me that

12. ...d4 13. Bd2 Nc6 is good, but play transposes into other games with 14. Nf3 Qd5 15. 0-0

which seems to be good for White. I don't know what else can be played other than this Qd5 move.

Perhaps I should have said THAT'S WHY I'm looking at 12. ...Qa5

I mean, you didn't say WHY I shouldn't look at it.


Instead 13... Nd7 (attacking both the e- and c-pawns) seems fine for Black and was recommended by Watson in PTF4. He didn't give analysis but some possibilities include:

14.Bxc3 dxc3 15.Ne2 Qc7 16.f4 Nxc5
14.Nf3 Nxc5 15.Bg5 Nxd3+ 16.cxd3 Qb6
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: C12: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #92 - 08/11/13 at 18:55:58
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Yeah, I looked at it.
I also don't like it and I don't believe in it.

It seemed to me that

12. ...d4 13. Bd2 Nc6 is good, but play transposes into other games with 14. Nf3 Qd5 15. 0-0

which seems to be good for White. I don't know what else can be played other than this Qd5 move.

Perhaps I should have said THAT'S WHY I'm looking at 12. ...Qa5

I mean, you didn't say WHY I shouldn't look at it.
  

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Re: C12: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #91 - 08/11/13 at 11:27:57
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ghenghisclown wrote on 08/11/13 at 09:48:51:
So, any changes to opinions on here based on "The Modern French" by Antic and Maksimovic?

As another related issue I noticed that after 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 g6 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 c5
10.Bd3 h5, Grandelius (and some other strong players) played 11.Qh3

which is not covered in the book. Suggestions??

Play seems to go
11. ...Nxc3 12. dxc5 and then I'm thinking Black can go 12...Qa5

11. ...Qa5 right away doesn't seem to work so well.


I would suggest looking more closely at 12...d4.
  
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Re: C12: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #90 - 08/11/13 at 09:48:51
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So, any changes to opinions on here based on "The Modern French" by Antic and Maksimovic?

As another related issue I noticed that after 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 g6 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 c5
10.Bd3 h5, Grandelius (and some other strong players) played 11.Qh3

which is not covered in the book. Suggestions??

Play seems to go
11. ...Nxc3 12. dxc5 and then I'm thinking Black can go 12...Qa5

11. ...Qa5 right away doesn't seem to work so well.
  

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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #89 - 06/08/10 at 13:08:35
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Markovich wrote on 06/07/10 at 20:47:18:
21...Bd5 does look = and I guess I prefer it, though I was trying to make the point that Black holds also after 21...Bg6.

I take your point. I suppose if 21...Bg6 is OK, then surely 21...Bd5 is too.

Quote:
What's your plan after 20.Rd1 Bxe4 21.Rxd4 Bxc2?

My plan is to get a new chess engine Wink
...which I have done! Fritz8 was starting to look a bit tired, so Rybka4 seemed like a good idea. It's interesting to see how the two programs evaluate these positions differently - Fritz8 likes White, whereas Rybka4 thinks it's equal. In general, I think Rybka is more on the ball - after you play through some lines, Fritz climbs down.

So 20.Rd1 Bxe4 21.Rxd4 Bxc2 can be met with 22.O-O Rd8 23.Rc1 Rxd4 24.Nxd4 Ba4 25.Rxc3 Kd7, but Rybka's assessment of equality sounds fair.

I've come round to the idea of 16...Qd4 being a viable alternative to my suggestion of 16...Qc7. It may yet prove to be more accurate, as 16...Qc7 can lead to sharp positions where Black could get his fingers burnt.
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #88 - 06/07/10 at 20:47:18
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21...Bd5 does look = and I guess I prefer it, though I was trying to make the point that Black holds also after 21...Bg6.

What's your plan after 20.Rd1 Bxe4 21.Rxd4 Bxc2?

  

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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #87 - 06/05/10 at 17:40:55
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Quote:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 g6 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf4 g5 12.Qf3 Nxc3 13.dxc5 d4 14.Bd2 Nc6 15.Bxc3 dxc3 16.Qe3

derdudea wrote on 06/02/10 at 13:32:39:
derdudea wrote on 05/29/10 at 09:15:12:
Sorry Paul, but the game will not meet any high expectations, since the critical 16...Qd4 17.Qxd4 Nxd4 18.Be4! Bd7 19.Ne2 Bc6 20.Nxd4 Bxe4 21.f3 Bg6 22.O-O-O you mentioned was not played.

The game continues 17.Dxg5 17...Dxe5+ 18.Dxe5 Sxe5 19.f4 Sxd3+ 20.cxd3 Ld7 21.Tc1 Lb5 22.Txc3 Tg8 23.Kf2 0𢠢 24.Sf3 Lxd3 25.Td1 Lb5 and I really can磘 see any problem for Black except my usually bad endgame play enabling me to loose any endgame (at least over the board). So the rest of the still ongoing game should be of no interest in the opening section, since I firmely believe Black has equalised completely with not much effort.

Update 2.6.2010: The game ended with a draw after 12 more moves revealing nothing but complete equality.

However, when analysing the line you expect to give White a slight edge, I intended to play 21...Ld5 22.Sb5 Ke7 23.Sxc3 Thc8 24.Sxd5+ exd5 25.Tb1 Txc5 26.Txb7+ Ke6 =



After 16...Qd4 17.Qxd4 (17.Qxg5 is harmless for Black on the evidence on your game) 17匩xd4 18.Be4 Bd7 19.Ne2 Bc6 20.Nxd4 Bxe4 21.f3, your 21...Bd5!= looks to be a clear improvement on my 21匓g6 the bishop is offside on g6 (as Markovich抯 lines perhaps show). So, to play devil's advocate, can White try for the advantage with an earlier improvement: 20.Rd1 Huh ?
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #86 - 06/02/10 at 15:14:41
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Paul Cumbers wrote on 05/09/10 at 23:04:57:
Markovich wrote on 04/27/10 at 00:21:02:
Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/18/10 at 17:24:23:
Dave Ledger 2245 v Paul Cumbers 2218, 4NCL 17.1.2010
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 g6 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf4 g5 12.Qf3 Nxc3 13.dxc5 d4 14.Bd2 Nc6 15.Bxc3!? dxc3 16.Qe3 Qd5? 17.Nf3 g4 18.Be4! Qc4? 19.Bxc6+ bxc6 20.Ng5 and with the knight coming to e4 and d6, I was busted and duly lost (the rest of the game is academic).

A painful experience, but not enough to put me off this line... The good news is I think Black can improve with 16...Qc7! Smiley e.g. 17.h4 Nxe5 (17... g4?! 18.f4! gxf3 19. Nxf3 and White holds onto e5) 18.hxg5 Bd7 19.Be4 O-O-O 20.Qxc3 Bc6 21.Bxc6 Nxc6 22.Nf3 e5, unclear.


Black has moves besides 16...Qc7, not that I criticize that one. E.g. 16...Rg8 17.Rd1 Qc7; 16...Qd4 17.Qxd4 Nxd4 18.Rb1 Bd7.


I like the idea of multiple alternatives, however I need some convincing about the viability of these! Both 16匯g8 and 16匭d4 ignore the plan of undermining e5 (which is a key idea of Black抯 setup imo). Viz:

(a) 16...Rg8 17.h4! g4 (or 17...gxh4 18.Nf3) 18.f4 gxf3 19.Nxf3, when White offers the g-pawn to maintain the strongpoint on e5.

(b) 16...Qd4 17.Qxd4 Nxd4 18.Be4! Bd7 19.Ne2 Bc6 20.Nxd4 Bxe4 21.f3 Bg6 22.O-O-O, with a slight edge?

I would prefer White in either case (unless you can change my mind Wink).



Concerning (a) I looked, and I agree, e.g. 16...Rg8 17. h4 g4 18.f4 gxf3 19.Nxf3 Bd7 20.O-O! Qc7 21.Rae1 0-0-0 22.Ng5.

Concerning (b), after 22.O-O-O I looked at 22...O-O-O and came up with this, no doubt, too lengthy set of variations: 23.Nb5 (I am sure that there are alternatives worth considering; 23.Nb3!? g4!?) 23...Kb8 24.Nd6 (24.Nxc3 Rc8 and 24.c6 bxc6 25.Nxc3 don't appear to be especially harmful) 24...Rd7 and now:

A. 25.Rhe1 Rc7

B. 25.Rd4 Rc8 26.Rc4 Rc6

C. 25.c6 bxc6 26.Rhe1 (26.h4 gxh4 27.Rxh4 f6) 26...Rhd8 27.g3 (otherwise Black straightforwardly evicts the knight) 27...f6 28.f4 fxe5 29.fxe5 Rf8 30.Re3 (30.Rf1 Rdd8) 30...Rf2 31.Rxc3 Re2 32.Rd4 Kc7 33.Nb5+ Kd8 and I'm not entirely sure, but Black seems to have enough to hold this ending, say 34.Nxa7 Be4 or 34.Rxc6 Rxe5.

D. 25.h4 Rc7 26.hxg5 Rxc5 27.f4 Ra5 28.g4 (28.Kb1 Rxa3 doesn't help) and Black has the interesting resource, which poetically depends upon his c3 pawn, of 28...Rxa3 29.Kb1 Rb6+ 30.Ka2 (or draws by repetition) 30...Rb2+ 31.Ka1 Rxc2 32.f5 exf5 33.gxf5 Bxf5 34.Nxf5 Rc8 and unclear to me, but Black is by no means without play.

All this with silicon assistance, of course.
« Last Edit: 06/03/10 at 01:48:40 by Markovich »  

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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #85 - 06/02/10 at 13:32:39
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derdudea wrote on 05/29/10 at 09:15:12:
Sorry Paul, but the game will not meet any high expectations, since the critical 16...Qd4 17.Qxd4 Nxd4 18.Be4! Bd7 19.Ne2 Bc6 20.Nxd4 Bxe4 21.f3 Bg6 22.O-O-O you mentioned was not played.

The game continues 17.Dxg5 17...Dxe5+ 18.Dxe5 Sxe5 19.f4 Sxd3+ 20.cxd3 Ld7 21.Tc1 Lb5 22.Txc3 Tg8 23.Kf2 0𢠢 24.Sf3 Lxd3 25.Td1 Lb5 and I really can磘 see any problem for Black except my usually bad endgame play enabling me to loose any endgame (at least over the board). So the rest of the still ongoing game should be of no interest in the opening section, since I firmely believe Black has equalised completely with not much effort.

Update 2.6.2010: The game ended with a draw after 12 more moves revealing nothing but complete equality.

However, when analysing the line you expect to give White a slight edge, I intended to play 21...Ld5 22.Sb5 Ke7 23.Sxc3 Thc8 24.Sxd5+ exd5 25.Tb1 Txc5 26.Txb7+ Ke6 =

  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #84 - 05/29/10 at 09:15:12
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Sorry Paul, but the game will not meet any high expectations, since the critical 16...Qd4 17.Qxd4 Nxd4 18.Be4! Bd7 19.Ne2 Bc6 20.Nxd4 Bxe4 21.f3 Bg6 22.O-O-O you mentioned was not played.

The game continues 17.Dxg5 17...Dxe5+ 18.Dxe5 Sxe5 19.f4 Sxd3+ 20.cxd3 Ld7 21.Tc1 Lb5 22.Txc3 Tg8 23.Kf2 0𢠢 24.Sf3 Lxd3 25.Td1 Lb5 and I really can磘 see any problem for Black except my usually bad endgame play enabling me to loose any endgame (at least over the board). So the rest of the still ongoing game should be of no interest in the opening section, since I firmely believe Black has equalised completely with not much effort.

However, when analysing the line you expect to give White a slight edge, I intended to play 21...Ld5 22.Sb5 Ke7 23.Sxc3 Thc8 24.Sxd5+ exd5 25.Tb1 Txc5 26.Txb7+ Ke6 =
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #83 - 05/09/10 at 23:04:57
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Markovich wrote on 04/27/10 at 00:21:02:
Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/18/10 at 17:24:23:
Dave Ledger 2245 v Paul Cumbers 2218, 4NCL 17.1.2010
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 g6 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf4 g5 12.Qf3 Nxc3 13.dxc5 d4 14.Bd2 Nc6 15.Bxc3!? dxc3 16.Qe3 Qd5? 17.Nf3 g4 18.Be4! Qc4? 19.Bxc6+ bxc6 20.Ng5 and with the knight coming to e4 and d6, I was busted and duly lost (the rest of the game is academic).

A painful experience, but not enough to put me off this line... The good news is I think Black can improve with 16...Qc7! Smiley e.g. 17.h4 Nxe5 (17... g4?! 18.f4! gxf3 19. Nxf3 and White holds onto e5) 18.hxg5 Bd7 19.Be4 O-O-O 20.Qxc3 Bc6 21.Bxc6 Nxc6 22.Nf3 e5, unclear.


Black has moves besides 16...Qc7, not that I criticize that one. E.g. 16...Rg8 17.Rd1 Qc7; 16...Qd4 17.Qxd4 Nxd4 18.Rb1 Bd7.


I like the idea of multiple alternatives, however I need some convincing about the viability of these! Both 16匯g8 and 16匭d4 ignore the plan of undermining e5 (which is a key idea of Black抯 setup imo). Viz:

(a) 16...Rg8 17.h4! g4 (or 17...gxh4 18.Nf3) 18.f4 gxf3 19.Nxf3, when White offers the g-pawn to maintain the strongpoint on e5.

(b) 16...Qd4 17.Qxd4 Nxd4 18.Be4! Bd7 19.Ne2 Bc6 20.Nxd4 Bxe4 21.f3 Bg6 22.O-O-O, with a slight edge?

I would prefer White in either case (unless you can change my mind Wink).

derdudea wrote on 04/22/10 at 20:32:49:
@Paul Cumbers
We will find out more on this variation soon. I磎 playing a corrchess game right now against a very strong opponent who played the rare 15.Bxd3. Quite interesting to use it in a corrchess game, it tells something about the mainline with Qf6.

It磗 hard to believe that exchanging the black bishop can be the way to an advantage. We will see. 15....dxc3 was an easy choice, but it should have been the last easy move.

Thanks for this Smiley. I look forward to seeing the full game!
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #82 - 04/27/10 at 00:21:02
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Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/18/10 at 17:24:23:
Paul Cumbers wrote on 08/16/09 at 13:55:40:
I'll be giving 10...h5 a try if/when I get the opportunity!

Yesterday, I finally got the chance to play 10...h5 in a serious game, and it was a disaster Cry. White tried 11.Qf4 (instead of 11.Qf3), and came up with an interesting novelty on move 15:

Dave Ledger 2245 v Paul Cumbers 2218, 4NCL 17.1.2010
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 g6 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf4 g5 12.Qf3 Nxc3 13.dxc5 d4 14.Bd2 Nc6 15.Bxc3!? dxc3 16.Qe3 Qd5? 17.Nf3 g4 18.Be4! Qc4? 19.Bxc6+ bxc6 20.Ng5 and with the knight coming to e4 and d6, I was busted and duly lost (the rest of the game is academic).

A painful experience, but not enough to put me off this line... The good news is I think Black can improve with 16...Qc7! Smiley e.g. 17.h4 Nxe5 (17... g4?! 18.f4! gxf3 19. Nxf3 and White holds onto e5) 18.hxg5 Bd7 19.Be4 O-O-O 20.Qxc3 Bc6 21.Bxc6 Nxc6 22.Nf3 e5, unclear.

Maybe next time... Roll Eyes


Black has moves besides 16...Qc7, not that I criticize that one. E.g. 16...Rg8 17.Rd1 Qc7; 16...Qd4 17.Qxd4 Nxd4 18.Rb1 Bd7.
  

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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #81 - 04/26/10 at 13:33:49
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You mean the rare 15.Bxc3, don't you?
  

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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #80 - 04/22/10 at 20:32:49
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Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/18/10 at 17:24:23:
Paul Cumbers wrote on 08/16/09 at 13:55:40:
I'll be giving 10...h5 a try if/when I get the opportunity!

Yesterday, I finally got the chance to play 10...h5 in a serious game, and it was a disaster Cry. White tried 11.Qf4 (instead of 11.Qf3), and came up with an interesting novelty on move 15:

Dave Ledger 2245 v Paul Cumbers 2218, 4NCL 17.1.2010
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 g6 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf4 g5 12.Qf3 Nxc3 13.dxc5 d4 14.Bd2 Nc6 15.Bxc3!? dxc3 16.Qe3 Qd5? 17.Nf3 g4 18.Be4! Qc4? 19.Bxc6+ bxc6 20.Ng5 and with the knight coming to e4 and d6, I was busted and duly lost (the rest of the game is academic).

A painful experience, but not enough to put me off this line... The good news is I think Black can improve with 16...Qc7! Smiley e.g. 17.h4 Nxe5 (17... g4?! 18.f4! gxf3 19. Nxf3 and White holds onto e5) 18.hxg5 Bd7 19.Be4 O-O-O 20.Qxc3 Bc6 21.Bxc6 Nxc6 22.Nf3 e5, unclear.

Maybe next time... Roll Eyes


@Paul Cumbers
We will find out more on this variation soon. I磎 playing a corrchess game right now against a very strong opponent who played the rare 15.Bxd3. Quite interesting to use it in a corrchess game, it tells something about the mainline with Qf6.

It磗 hard to believe that exchanging the black bishop can be the way to an advantage. We will see. 15....dxc3 was an easy choice, but it should have been the last easy move.
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #79 - 04/09/10 at 10:34:07
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Sorry, my bad, I was confused since the rest of the line is so similar.
  
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