ChessPub Forum - C12: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon

derdudea Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 176 Location: Germany Joined: 10/03/08 Gender:	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #63 - 02/01/10 at 11:44:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	I thought about playing 7....g5 some time ago. Many lines, especially the sac-lines are quite faszinating, but the positional approach after 8.Ne2 Moskalenko gives in "The flexible french" deterred me from doing so. Moskalenko himself cites one of his own games, a terrible loss with the black pieces and offers no improvement.


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Paul Cumbers Full Member Offline Posts: 175 Location: Grantham Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #62 - 01/24/10 at 20:17:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	dom wrote on 01/24/10 at 11:47:29: Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/19/10 at 11:48:04: 19.Bxe6+! Kxe6 20.Rf6+ Kd7 21.d5! cxd5 22.e6+ Kd6 23.Bd4 Qg8 24.e7+ Be6 25.Nf4 Kxe7 26.Rxe6+ Qxe6 27.Nxe6 Kxe6. ok ... this line quite convincing and White has 21.Rh1 Kc7 22.Bh6 +/- too Now my best line for Black is 14..g3 (instead of 14...c6) 15.Nh5 (15.fxg3 Qxg5 ; 15.g6 fxg6 16.Bc4 Bxf2 17.gxf2 Nxe6 18.Nb6) Qb4 16.Nf6+ Nxf6 17.gxf6 Bd7 18.a3 Qa4 19.Bh6 ooo But here (i.e. after 7...g5 8.h4 h5 9.hxg5 hxg4 10.Rxh8+ Bf8 11.Nxe4 dxe4 12.Ne2 Nd7 13.Nf4 Qe7 14.O-O-O g3) White has 15.Be2! with the idea of Bh5. Fritz8 assesses this as already better for White. Play could go 15...c5 16.d5 Qxg5 (or 16...exd5 17.Nxd5 Qxe5 18.Rg8, when Bf4 or Bb5 will be painful) 17.dxe6 Qxe5 18.Rh5 with a strong initiative.


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dom God Member Offline Posts: 908 Location: Toulouse Joined: 01/11/03 Gender:	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #61 - 01/24/10 at 11:47:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/19/10 at 11:48:04: 19.Bxe6+! Kxe6 20.Rf6+ Kd7 21.d5! cxd5 22.e6+ Kd6 23.Bd4 Qg8 24.e7+ Be6 25.Nf4 Kxe7 26.Rxe6+ Qxe6 27.Nxe6 Kxe6. ok ... this line quite convincing and White has 21.Rh1 Kc7 22.Bh6 +/- too Now my best line for Black is 14..g3 (instead of 14...c6) 15.Nh5 (15.fxg3 Qxg5 ; 15.g6 fxg6 16.Bc4 Bxf2 17.gxf2 Nxe6 18.Nb6) Qb4 16.Nf6+ Nxf6 17.gxf6 Bd7 18.a3 Qa4 19.Bh6 ooo

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dom God Member Offline Posts: 908 Location: Toulouse Joined: 01/11/03 Gender:	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #60 - 01/19/10 at 18:12:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Paul Cumbers: ok...(help, I need time !?!)...I will try to search more data/arguments next sunday.

	“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.” - Groucho Marx
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Paul Cumbers Full Member Offline Posts: 175 Location: Grantham Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #59 - 01/19/10 at 11:48:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	dom wrote on 01/18/10 at 20:39:00: Very nice old thread revival I didn't took part to first posts and (I admit) have not read them, before this question: 13...Nc6 14.Qg3 is transposition to Veselovsky-Glek,Moscou 1984 (MCO). ... Why an early d4 pawn push in your game (Nc6 threatens a queen grab after Nxe5) ? Here is 2 years old thread about move order 7...g5!? 8.a3 (8.h4 h5 give nice queen sacrice opportunity 9.hxg5...but maybe Black can try 9...hxg4 10.Rxh8+ Bf8 11.Nxe4 dxe4 12.Ne2 Nd7 13.Ng3 (13.Nf4 Qe7 14.ooo c6 15.g6 fxg6 16.Bc4 Nb6 17.Nxg6 Qg7 18.Rxf8 Kd7) b6 14.Nxe4 Bb7 15.Nf6+ Nxf6 16.exf6 Qd5 -/+) Nxc3+ (8...h5 9.Qd1!) 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf3 Nxc3 : http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1171932933 That's an interesting question about the relative merits of 13...d4/13...Nc6. I'm not sure exactly why 13...d4 has taken over as the main move. In general terms, there are certain situations where Qd5 is available, or Nd5 can be a useful regrouping move, or the bishop can seize the long diagonal on b7/c6. Or maybe it's just fashion! At any rate, it's notable that David Smerdon has played this way twice - once via 7...g6 (against Goh Wei Ming) and once via 7...g5 (against Areshchenko). In both games, White played Qf6 (instead of 15.Bxc3 in Ledger v Cumbers) and Black got a good position. Wow, those lines in the queen sac variation are pretty terrifying! But after 7...g5 8.h4 h5 9.hxg5 hxg4 10.Rxh8+ Bf8 11.Nxe4 dxe4 12.Ne2 Nd7 13.Ng3 (or 13.Nf4 Qe7 14.O-O-O c6 15.g6 fxg6 16.Bc4 Nb6 17.Nxg6 Qg7 18.Rxf8+ Kd7 how can you stop there?? e.g. 19.Bxe6+! Kxe6 20.Rf6+ Kd7 21.d5! cxd5 22.e6+ Kd6 23.Bd4 Qg8 24.e7+ Be6 25.Nf4 Kxe7 26.Rxe6+ Qxe6 27.Nxe6 Kxe6 looks about level) 13...b6 14.Nxe4 Bb7 White has 15.g6! fxg6 16.Bg5 Bxe4 17.Bxd8 Rxd8 with approximate equality.


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dom God Member Offline Posts: 908 Location: Toulouse Joined: 01/11/03 Gender:	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #58 - 01/18/10 at 20:39:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	Very nice old thread revival I didn't took part to first posts and (I admit) have not read them, before this question: 13...Nc6 14.Qg3 is transposition to Veselovsky-Glek,Moscou 1984 (MCO). ... Why an early d4 pawn push in your game (Nc6 threatens a queen grab after Nxe5) ? Here is 2 years old thread about move order 7...g5!? 8.a3 (8.h4 h5 give nice queen sacrice opportunity 9.hxg5...but maybe Black can try 9...hxg4 10.Rxh8+ Bf8 11.Nxe4 dxe4 12.Ne2 Nd7 13.Ng3 (13.Nf4 Qe7 14.ooo c6 15.g6 fxg6 16.Bc4 Nb6 17.Nxg6 Qg7 18.Rxf8 Kd7) b6 14.Nxe4 Bb7 15.Nf6+ Nxf6 16.exf6 Qd5 -/+) Nxc3+ (8...h5 9.Qd1!) 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf3 Nxc3 : http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1171932933

	“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.” - Groucho Marx
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Paul Cumbers Full Member Offline Posts: 175 Location: Grantham Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #57 - 01/18/10 at 17:24:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Paul Cumbers wrote on 08/16/09 at 13:55:40: I'll be giving 10...h5 a try if/when I get the opportunity! Yesterday, I finally got the chance to play 10...h5 in a serious game, and it was a disaster . White tried 11.Qf4 (instead of 11.Qf3), and came up with an interesting novelty on move 15: Dave Ledger 2245 v Paul Cumbers 2218, 4NCL 17.1.2010 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 g6 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf4 g5 12.Qf3 Nxc3 13.dxc5 d4 14.Bd2 Nc6 15.Bxc3!? dxc3 16.Qe3 Qd5? 17.Nf3 g4 18.Be4! Qc4? 19.Bxc6+ bxc6 20.Ng5 and with the knight coming to e4 and d6, I was busted and duly lost (the rest of the game is academic). A painful experience, but not enough to put me off this line... The good news is I think Black can improve with 16...Qc7! e.g. 17.h4 Nxe5 (17... g4?! 18.f4! gxf3 19. Nxf3 and White holds onto e5) 18.hxg5 Bd7 19.Be4 O-O-O 20.Qxc3 Bc6 21.Bxc6 Nxc6 22.Nf3 e5, unclear. Maybe next time...


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #56 - 08/17/09 at 21:12:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Raspje wrote on 08/17/09 at 14:04:44: Matemax wrote on 08/17/09 at 11:44:50: Quote: hmm - I want to stick with my idea (piece attack instead of pawns): 13.Rf3 Bd7 14.Bd2 Ne4 15.Bb4 Qd8 16.Qf4 Rh7 17.Bxe4 dxe4 18.h5! exf3 19.hxg6 and Black is in troubles - you are welcome to improve, of course Okay,let's have a look: 13. Rf3 Bd7 14. Bd2 Ne4 15. Bb4 c5! 16. dxc5 a5! 17. cxb6 axb4 18.Bxe4 dxe4 and black seems to have a slight edge. Improvements might be found, of course. Very nice - at the moment I couldnt find something better for White - seems I need some help here to defend my idea...


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Raspje Junior Member Offline Play the dynamic French Posts: 55 Location: Winsum, Groningen,Holland Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #55 - 08/17/09 at 14:04:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	Matemax wrote on 08/17/09 at 11:44:50: Quote: hmm - I want to stick with my idea (piece attack instead of pawns): 13.Rf3 Bd7 14.Bd2 Ne4 15.Bb4 Qd8 16.Qf4 Rh7 17.Bxe4 dxe4 18.h5! exf3 19.hxg6 and Black is in troubles - you are welcome to improve, of course Okay,let's have a look: 13. Rf3 Bd7 14. Bd2 Ne4 15. Bb4 c5! 16. dxc5 a5! 17. cxb6 axb4 18.Bxe4 dxe4 and black seems to have a slight edge. Improvements might be found, of course.


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #54 - 08/17/09 at 11:44:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: This is an important suggestion. I think the best variation for black is 12... Nb6 hmm - I want to stick with my idea (piece attack instead of pawns): 13.Rf3 Bd7 14.Bd2 Ne4 15.Bb4 Qd8 16.Qf4 Rh7 17.Bxe4 dxe4 18.h5! exf3 19.hxg6 and Black is in troubles - you are welcome to improve, of course


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Raspje Junior Member Offline Play the dynamic French Posts: 55 Location: Winsum, Groningen,Holland Joined: 01/05/03 Gender:	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #53 - 08/17/09 at 10:54:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Matemax wrote on 08/16/09 at 21:02:29: What do you think of 12.Rh3!? with the idea of 12...c5 13.Rf3 c4?! 14.Rf7! which would of course need some serious analyses This is an important suggestion. I think the best variation for black is 12... Nb6 13. h5 g5 14. f4 gxf4 15.Qxf4 (15. Bxf4 Bd7 16. Qg7 O-O-O 17. Bh7 Ne4 18. Bxh6 Ba4 19. c3 Qd7 20. Ne2 f5! 21. Bg6 Qb5 with an attack) 15... Bd7 16. Bf2 Ne4 17. Bh4 Qf8 18. Ne2 Rg8 19. Bxe4 dxe4 20. Ng3 Nd5 21. Qxe4 Bc6 22. c4 Ne7 23. Qc2 O-O-O 24. O-O-O Rg4 with a good position for black.


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Matemax God Member Offline Chesspub gives you strength! Posts: 1302 Joined: 11/04/07	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #52 - 08/16/09 at 21:02:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Thanks, Klick, for the suggestion after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 g6 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 Nxc3 10.Bd3. But 10...Nd7? seems to lose outright after 11.Bxg6! fxg6 12.Qxg6+ Kf8 13.Bxh6+ Rxh6 14.Qxh6+. But after seeing your idea my brain was working overtime and I suddenly found another novelty: 10...Qe7 11.h4 (played without exception) and now 11...Nd7! What do you think of 12.Rh3!? with the idea of 12...c5 13.Rf3 c4?! 14.Rf7! which would of course need some serious analyses


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derdudea Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 176 Location: Germany Joined: 10/03/08 Gender:	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #51 - 08/16/09 at 21:01:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote author=Porcus link=1104416123/45#49 date=1250430940 I also wonder whether McDonald wrote the material for his book before the Sutovsky v Wang Hao game. Either way, I would take some convincing about the line he recommends (i.e. 9.bxc3 Nxc3 10.Bd3 Nc6 11.h4 Bd7!?, although I don't have the book). I'll be giving 10...h5 a try if/when I get the opportunity! [/quote] I saw the Wang Hao game - with his comments - at least 6 month before McDonald´s book was published. His booked is aimed at OTB players with an rating between 1200 - 2000 and he tries to pick variations based on understanding, so 10....h5 could not have been his choice because it is is way to complicated and only playable if you - have an excellent memory and analysed it deeply - or like russian roulette - or play CC (I will love to play it there) If he had written a 400 pages repertoire book for experts he would have chosen 10....h5. But only GM McDonald can enlighten us.


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Raspje

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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #50 - 08/16/09 at 20:20:14

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Klick wrote on 05/30/06 at 21:47:33:

Hmm, why has 10...Nd7 never been tried?

Thanks, Klick, for the suggestion after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 g6 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 Nxc3 10.Bd3. But 10...Nd7? seems to lose outright after 11.Bxg6! fxg6 12.Qxg6+ Kf8 13.Bxh6+ Rxh6 14.Qxh6+. But after seeing your idea my brain was working overtime and I suddenly found another novelty: 10...Qe7 11.h4 (played without exception) and now 11...Nd7!

The idea is, of course, 12.h5 g5 13.f4 f5! 14.exf6 Nxf6 15.Bg6+ Kd8 16.Qg3 g4! with a good position. I have worked together with Fritz 8 some time on this position and we came up with the following variations:

A. 12.Ne2 Na4! (12...Nxe2 13.Qxe2! followed by h5 and f4) 13.h5 (13.0-0 Nb2!) ...g5 14. f4 (14. O-O Nb2) 14... f5 15. exf6 Nxf6 16. Bg6+ Kd8 17. Qg3 g4 18.Rb1 (18. O-O Bd7 19. Bd2 Kc8 20. Bb4 Qg7) 18... Nb6 19. a4 Nc4 20. Bd3(20. Bc1 b6 21. O-O Bd7) 20... b6 21. Bxc4 dxc4 22. O-O Bd7 23. a5 Kc8 unclear

B. 12. Nf3 Na4! 13. O-O Nb2 14. Be2 Nc4! 15. Bxc4 dxc4 16. Nd2 (16. h5 g5 17. Nd2 f5 18. exf6 Nxf6 19.Qe2 c3 20. Nc4 Qf7 21. Ne5 Qxh5 22. Qb5+ c6 23. Nxc6 O-O 24. Ne5 Nd5 unclear)16...Nb6 17. a4 Bd7 18. a5 Nd5 19. Rfb1 (19. Nxc4? Bb5) 19... c3 20. Ne4 Bc6 21.Rb3 O-O-O 22. Nxc3 f5!? 23. exf6 Nxf6 24. Qg3 g5!? 25. a6 b6 26. Nb5 Kb8 unclear

C. 12. Bd2 Na4 13. h5 (13. Bb5 Nb2 14.Bb4 Qd8 15. h5 g5 16. Nf3 (16. f4 c6 17. fxg5 cxb5 18. gxh6 Nb6 19. Qg7 Kd7 20.Qxf7+ Kc6 21. Qf4 a5 22. Bc5 N2c4 23. Nf3 Nd7 unclear) 16... a5 17. Bc3 c6 18. Bxc6 bxc6 19. Bxb2 Ba6 unclear) 13... g5 14. f4 f5 15. exf6 Nxf6 16. Qg3 g4 17. Bg6+ Kd8 18. Qb3 Nb6 19. Bb4 Qg7 20. a4 Bd7 21. a5 Nc4 22. Ne2 Kc8 unclear

Of course, Fritz 8 is no Rybka 3, and later I will check my variations with Rybka (not available at the moment). But it is not a bad program and the evaluations seem correct (most of the time they are my own). You might say that according to Morozevich unclear positions only reveal a lazy author but in this case I suspect these positions really are unclear!

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Paul Cumbers Full Member Offline Posts: 175 Location: Grantham Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon Reply #49 - 08/16/09 at 13:55:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	derdudea wrote on 08/15/09 at 08:06:59: Paul Cumbers wrote on 08/14/09 at 12:21:49: So is 19...Na4! the move that Wang Hao had prepared against Sutovsky? Your analysis certainly indicates that Black is OK here. It might be slightly drawish, but you can't have everything I suppose! I reckon this line with 10...h5 could be Black's best against 6.Be3. It´s interesting that an expert like Moskalenko felt the same way about 10...h5 and included only one game on the 6.Be3 - variation in his book- with 10....h5 as black´s choice. The Sutovsky - Wang Hao - game was not played when he wrote the book, but the general assessment of a french expert - maybe backed up by more analysis than published in his book - should not be overlooked. Food for thought. I also wonder whether McDonald wrote the material for his book before the Sutovsky v Wang Hao game. Either way, I would take some convincing about the line he recommends (i.e. 9.bxc3 Nxc3 10.Bd3 Nc6 11.h4 Bd7!?, although I don't have the book). I'll be giving 10...h5 a try if/when I get the opportunity!


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