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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C12: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon (Read 101705 times)
Net Warrior
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #78 - 04/09/10 at 02:01:24
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derdudea,
The game you're referring to has the moves 7.Qg4 g6.  What we are discussing here is 7.Qg4 kf8.


BTW, I found an interesing game in the Mac that I'm looking into now in the 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Bb4 5. e5 h6 6. Bd2 line:  http://www.365chess.com/view_game.php?g=2730773  
  
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derdudea
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #77 - 04/08/10 at 21:10:43
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Fllg wrote on 03/23/10 at 18:51:46:
Net Warrior wrote on 03/23/10 at 14:21:06:
It looks like this has been addressed already.  At this point I'm starting to think that the entire 6.Be3 pawn sack line is not worth it.   7. Qg4 Kf8 8. a3 Bxc3 9. bxc3 c5 10. Bd3 h5 11. Qf4 Qa5 12. Ne2 Nxc3  13. Bd2 Nxe2  14. Bxe2 Qc7 and white has very little for the pawn.  11. Qf3 looks better  ...Nxc3  12. dxc5 Nc6 13. Qf4 d4 14. Bd2 Nd5  15. Qe4  or 12. Qf4 c4  13. Bg6 f5 14. ef(ep) Qf6  15.Kd2 Nb5 16. c3 both look better for white but whether worth a full pawn is questionable.


The line 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 Kf8 8.a3 Bxc3 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf3 Nxc3 12.dxc5 Nc6 13.Qf4 d4 14.Bd2 Nd5 15.Qe4 f5 16.exf6 e.p. Nxf6 (so far Watson in "Dangerous Weapons: The French") 17.Qh4 looks very good for White in my opinion. Material is equal at the moment while blacks position is full of holes and his King position may make itself felt soon. Ne2-f4 is an idea.



If you read page 3 of this thread you will find that 14...g5 as played in Sutovsky -  Wang Hao 2008 is stronger and at least equal for Black.
  
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Net Warrior
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #76 - 04/08/10 at 14:19:14
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Fllg wrote on 04/07/10 at 18:14:24:
Net Warrior wrote on 04/07/10 at 16:46:15:
I've now decided to revert back to 4.e5 lines again and try to find something that suites me better.  


That´s the point, isn´t it? In the end it all depends on personal tastes.

I for one quite like the positions after 4.Bg5 for White irrespective of a theoretical advantage and haven´t found something here do discourage me from playing it. I doubt White´s chances for an edge are greater after 4. e5.....


I think I jumped the 4.Bg5 ship too quickly.  After all, I like playing vs 4...Be7.  I've been thinking about the Mac some more and it occurs to me that if white gets nothing after 5.e5 h6 then 5.e5 must be the culprit.  So I'm stay with 4. Bg5 for now and I'm looking for 5.e5 Mac alternatives.  Hope springs eternal and I'm sure I'll find something eventually.       
  
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Fllg
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #75 - 04/07/10 at 18:14:24
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Net Warrior wrote on 04/07/10 at 16:46:15:
I've now decided to revert back to 4.e5 lines again and try to find something that suites me better.  


That´s the point, isn´t it? In the end it all depends on personal tastes.

I for one quite like the positions after 4.Bg5 for White irrespective of a theoretical advantage and haven´t found something here to discourage me from playing it. I doubt White´s chances for an edge are greater after 4. e5.....
« Last Edit: 04/08/10 at 15:21:10 by Fllg »  
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Net Warrior
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #74 - 04/07/10 at 16:46:15
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Yeah, it's all pretty discouraging.  I've now decided to revert back to 4.e5 lines again and try to find something that suites me better.  So it's back to the drawing board with ..... 

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. Be3 

(A) cxd4 8. Nxd4 Bc5 9. Qd2 O-O 10. O-O-O  

(B) a6 8. Qd2 b5

(C) Qb6 8. Na4 (8.Qd2 is hopefully better) Qa5 9. Nc3 allows possible draw by rep (9. c3 Nxd4! 10. Nxd4 cxd4 11. Bxd4 b5 seems better for black at glance)  Cry


Time for a new thread. Cool
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #73 - 04/06/10 at 17:51:51
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Ok I took time to see what you, Net Warrior, responded to me.

Net Warrior said:
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At this point I'm starting to think that the entire 6.Be3 pawn sack line is not worth it.   7. Qg4 Kf8 8. a3 Bxc3 9. bxc3 c5 10. Bd3 h5 11. Qf4 Qa5 12. Ne2 Nxc3  13. Bd2 Nxe2  14. Bxe2 Qc7 and white has very little for the pawn.  11. Qf3 looks better  ...Nxc3  12. dxc5 Nc6 13. Qf4 d4 14. Bd2 Nd5  15. Qe4  or 12. Qf4 c4  13. Bg6 f5 14. ef(ep) Qf6  15.Kd2 Nb5 16. c3 both look better for white but whether worth a full pawn is questionable.


First of all, 12.Ne2 Nxc3 13.0-0 has been played by Kasparov just to give one name, against Korchnoi. The game is quickly equal despite the pawn, nothing more. And the game has been a quick draw as a corr game between 2 iccf's 2400 players in the same way as Kasparov-Korchnoi , year 2000.

I watched my own notes from months ago and I have a novelty in mind after 11..Qa5, I won't reveal my idea for the moment but to be honest it might not be enough to get an advantage as White. So the current evaluation of the line may be: equal. But even with 6.Bd2 I am not convinced that White has anything!
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #72 - 04/06/10 at 13:41:16
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Frivolous question: is this the oldest active thread?  It goes back quite a long time...
  
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Net Warrior
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #71 - 03/24/10 at 01:33:19
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Fllg wrote on 03/23/10 at 18:51:46:
Net Warrior wrote on 03/23/10 at 14:21:06:
It looks like this has been addressed already.  At this point I'm starting to think that the entire 6.Be3 pawn sack line is not worth it.   7. Qg4 Kf8 8. a3 Bxc3 9. bxc3 c5 10. Bd3 h5 11. Qf4 Qa5 12. Ne2 Nxc3  13. Bd2 Nxe2  14. Bxe2 Qc7 and white has very little for the pawn.  11. Qf3 looks better  ...Nxc3  12. dxc5 Nc6 13. Qf4 d4 14. Bd2 Nd5  15. Qe4  or 12. Qf4 c4  13. Bg6 f5 14. ef(ep) Qf6  15.Kd2 Nb5 16. c3 both look better for white but whether worth a full pawn is questionable.


The line 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 Kf8 8.a3 Bxc3 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf3 Nxc3 12.dxc5 Nc6 13.Qf4 d4 14.Bd2 Nd5 15.Qe4 f5 16.exf6 e.p. Nxf6 (so far Watson in "Dangerous Weapons: The French") 17.Qh4 looks very good for White in my opinion. Material is equal at the moment while blacks position is full of holes and his King position may make itself felt soon. Ne2-f4 is an idea.


15...f5 looks like a blunder.  15...h4 takes a nice square away from the white queen which makes ...f5  more playable.  It allows a possible Rh5 rook lift and/or a possible h3 pawn assault.  After 15...h4  16. h3 white maintains a slight edge.   
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #70 - 03/23/10 at 18:51:46
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Net Warrior wrote on 03/23/10 at 14:21:06:
It looks like this has been addressed already.  At this point I'm starting to think that the entire 6.Be3 pawn sack line is not worth it.   7. Qg4 Kf8 8. a3 Bxc3 9. bxc3 c5 10. Bd3 h5 11. Qf4 Qa5 12. Ne2 Nxc3  13. Bd2 Nxe2  14. Bxe2 Qc7 and white has very little for the pawn.  11. Qf3 looks better  ...Nxc3  12. dxc5 Nc6 13. Qf4 d4 14. Bd2 Nd5  15. Qe4  or 12. Qf4 c4  13. Bg6 f5 14. ef(ep) Qf6  15.Kd2 Nb5 16. c3 both look better for white but whether worth a full pawn is questionable.


The line 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 Kf8 8.a3 Bxc3 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf3 Nxc3 12.dxc5 Nc6 13.Qf4 d4 14.Bd2 Nd5 15.Qe4 f5 16.exf6 e.p. Nxf6 (so far Watson in "Dangerous Weapons: The French") 17.Qh4 looks very good for White in my opinion. Material is equal at the moment while blacks position is full of holes and his King position may make itself felt soon. Ne2-f4 is an idea.
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #69 - 03/23/10 at 15:49:50
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Net Warrior, I will  try to find improvments for White in your last line with "my" Qf4 and I may post them soon.

Markovich, 6.Be3 may give anything to White, but I know a strong corr. player who always plays the MacCutcheon and never lost with him and he have faced mostly 6.Bd2, so this is maybe not sufficient for an advantage too. But if you think White is better, then what would you play after 6.Bd2 Bxc3 7.bxc3 Ne4 8.Qg4 g6 9.Bd3 Nxd2 10.Kxd2 c5? If the Mac Cutcheon don't give winning chances to White in strong corr level, maybe we will have to play 4.e5, the eternal debate 4.e5 vs 4.Bg5.
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #68 - 03/23/10 at 14:21:06
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HgMan wrote on 02/20/05 at 10:35:16:
My initial feeling is that Black has better options later.  Goloschapov seems to have improved on Kasparov's play with the White pieces.

[Site "Dhaka"]
[Date "2003.03.08"]
[White "Goloshchapov,Alexander"]
[Black "Reefat,Bin Sattar"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 Kf8 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf3 Nxc3 12.dxc5 Nc6 13.Qf4 d4 14.Bd2 Na4 15.Bb5 Nxc5 16.Bxc6 bxc6 17.Bb4 Qd5 18.0-0-0 Kg8 19.Nf3 Qe4 20.Qg5 Nb7 21.Rxd4 Qf5 22.Rf4 Qxg5 23.Nxg5 c5 24.Bc3 Nd8 25.Rd1 Bb7 26.Rd7 Bxg2 27.Ba5 Nc6 28.Rfxf7 Rh6 29.Rxg7+ Kh8 30.Bd2 Bd5 31.Nh3 Nxe5 32.Bxh6 1-0

11 Qf3 and 12 dxc5 look like important improvements that put the question to Black.  Reefat's 14 ... Na4 looks weak, but 14 ... Nd5 looks better.  See this junior game (U-12--!!), which is now quite old.  Jakab does seem to have produced a number of innovations in the Mac.

[Site "Paks"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[White "Hudecz,Viktor"]
[Black "Jakab,Attila"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 Kf8 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf3 Nxc3 12.dxc5 Nc6 13.Qf4 d4 14.Bd2 Nd5 15.Qe4 Nde7 16.Ne2 Qd5 17.Qxd5 Nxd5 18.f4 Ke7 19.Bc1 Nc7 20.Bb2 Rd8 21.Rd1 Nd5 22.g3 Ne3 23.Rd2 Rd5 24.a4 Ke8 25.Bb5 Bd7 26.Ba3 a6 27.Bd3 Na5 28.Be4 Bc6 29.Bxd5 Bxd5 30.Rg1 Nac4 31.Bc1 Nxd2 32.Kxd2 Ng4 33.h3 Nf2 34.Nxd4 Ne4+ 35.Ke3 Nxc5 36.a5 Rc8 37.g4 Ne4 38.gxh5 Rc3+ 39.Ke2 Bc4+ 40.Kd1 Rxh3 41.f5 Rxh5 42.fxe6 fxe6 43.c3 Bd3 44.Nf3 Rh3 45.Ng5 Nxc3+ 46.Kd2 Nb1+ 47.Ke1 Rh2 0-1

I'm still not crazy about Black's chances in this line.  The most recent game I've come across is De Vreugt-Porat 2004.  11 ... Qa5 doesn't look terribly persuasive, though.

[Site "Hoogeveen"]
[Date "2004.10.15"]
[White "De Vreugt,Dennis"]
[Black "Porat,Shi"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4 5.e5 h6 6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 Kf8 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 c5 10.Bd3 h5 11.Qf3 Qa5 12.Ne2 cxd4 13.Bxd4 Nc6 14.Qe3 b6 15.0-0 Bb7 16.Rfb1 Nxd4 17.Qxd4 Qc5 18.f3 Qxd4+ 19.cxd4 Nd2 20.Rb4 Ke7 21.a4 Rhc8 22.a5 Nc4 23.Kf2 Rc7 24.Bxc4 Rxc4 25.Rxc4 dxc4 26.axb6 axb6 27.Rxa8 Bxa8 28.h4 Kd7 29.Ke3 Kc6 30.Kd2 Kb5 31.Kc3 g6 32.Nf4 Bc6 33.Nh3 Bd5 34.Ng5 Ka4 35.Kb2 b5 36.c3 b4 37.Nxf7 Bc6 38.Ng5 Bd5 39.Nh3 b3 40.Nf4 Kb5 41.Nxg6 Kc6 42.Nf4 Kd7 43.Nxd5 exd5 44.g4 Ke6 45.gxh5  1-0



It looks like this has been addressed already.  At this point I'm starting to think that the entire 6.Be3 pawn sack line is not worth it.   7. Qg4 Kf8 8. a3 Bxc3 9. bxc3 c5 10. Bd3 h5 11. Qf4 Qa5 12. Ne2 Nxc3  13. Bd2 Nxe2  14. Bxe2 Qc7 and white has very little for the pawn.  11. Qf3 looks better  ...Nxc3  12. dxc5 Nc6 13. Qf4 d4 14. Bd2 Nd5  15. Qe4  or 12. Qf4 c4  13. Bg6 f5 14. ef(ep) Qf6  15.Kd2 Nb5 16. c3 both look better for white but whether worth a full pawn is questionable.

To me, black does a bit better in these 7...Kf8 lines than he does in the 7...g6 lines.  I do like that black jet pawn formation.  I suppose after 10...h5 best for white is 11. Qh3.    
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #67 - 03/22/10 at 19:13:27
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I'm having a very hard time understanding what has gone before on this thread, where very few have seen fit to supply the moves that precede their no doubt brilliant ideas.  But I've recently been reading Moskalenko on this subject, not only his book but also in the letters section of NIC-94.  I find his reasoning very persuasive.

6.Be3 Ne4 7.Qg4 g6! 8.a3 Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 c5! 10.Bd3 h5! 11.Qf4 (11.Qf3 Nxc3) 11...g5! 12.Qf3 Nxc3 is his main line (I think I have the moves right; I don't have the material in hand right now).  I looked at it and had trouble finding anything for White.  Moskalenko has a fanciful term for his kingside pawn expansion: Black Jet.  Obnoxious perhaps, but besides bowing to his chess strength, I admire his enthusiasm.

For one thing, I agree with him that 7...g6 should be preferred on principle to 7...Kf8.  Black should preserve his queenside castling option.  Only if 7...g6 were found wanting would I turn to the other.  Furthermore to me, 9...c5 looks a lot more active than taking right away on c3.
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #66 - 03/22/10 at 18:56:25
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I have faced 10..h5 in a corr. game recently and I hesitated between 11.Qf3 and 11.Qf4, I have played 11.Qf4 because it seemed to me to be the most promising move. What would you play now? Because according to my analysis, White has an edge (but maybe still playable for Black).
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #65 - 03/22/10 at 18:46:22
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MNb wrote on 05/31/06 at 04:05:42:
I With 7...g6: White has 11.Bxg6!
II With 7...Kf8: Black's cramped position compensates the pawn. White may continue with 11.Nf3 and 12.o-o or more ambitious with 11.h4 and 12.Rh3.


I've been working on the white end of the Mac for a few months now.  I found an interesting intermezzo, 10...h5, that seems to offer black fair counterplay: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 Bb4 5. e5 h6 6. Be3 Ne4 7. Qg4 Kf8 8. a3 Bxc3 9. bxc3 c5 10. Bd3 h5 11. Qf3 Nxc3 12. dxc5 Nc6 13. Qf4 d4 14. Bd2.  Fritz 10 finds only a marginal edge for white here and this seems to be blacks best line.  Here's a game that white won but black is bound to improve somewhere.   Comments? 

 http://www.365chess.com/view_game.php?g=35682    
  
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Re: 6. Be3 MacCutcheon
Reply #64 - 02/10/10 at 17:02:57
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derdudea wrote on 02/01/10 at 11:44:01:
I thought about playing  7....g5 some time ago. Many lines, especially the sac-lines are quite faszinating, but the positional approach after 8.Ne2 Moskalenko gives in "The flexible french" deterred me from doing so. Moskalenko himself cites one of his own games, a terrible loss with the black pieces and offers no improvement.

I too am suspicious of 7...g5. Let's get back to 7...g6  Smiley

Paul Cumbers wrote on 01/19/10 at 11:48:04:
dom wrote on 01/18/10 at 20:39:00:
Very nice old thread revival  Smiley
I didn't took part to first posts and (I admit) have not read them, before this question: 13...Nc6 14.Qg3 is transposition to Veselovsky-Glek,Moscou 1984 (MCO). 
... Why an early d4 pawn push in your game (Nc6 threatens a queen grab after Nxe5)  ?

That's an interesting question about the relative merits of 13...d4/13...Nc6. I'm not sure exactly why 13...d4 has taken over as the main move. In general terms, there are certain situations where Qd5 is available, or Nd5 can be a useful regrouping move, or the bishop can seize the long diagonal on b7/c6. Or maybe it's just fashion! At any rate, it's notable that David Smerdon has played this way twice - once via 7...g6 (against Goh Wei Ming) and once via 7...g5 (against Areshchenko). In both games, White played Qf6 (instead of 15.Bxc3 in Ledger v Cumbers) and Black got a good position.

It occurred to me that 13...d4/13...Nc6 could just be a move order issue. In other words, after 13...Nc6 14.Bd2, maybe Black should play 14...d4(!), transposing to 13...d4 14.Bd2 Nc6.

Anyway, the two David Smerdon games went 15.Qf6 Qxf6 16.exf6 Na4! 17.Bxg5 Nxc5, and now Areshchenko played 18.Nf3 whereas Wei Ming played 18.Ne2. In both cases, Black exchanged on d3, followed by ...b6, ...Bb7, and rook(s) to the middle. Of course this must be fine for Black. However, I'm wondering whether Black can play more ambitiously with ...a6!?, ...b5, ...Bb7, rook(s) to the middle, and only then exchange on d3. By delaying ...Nxd3, White is forced to wait before he can get his rook(s) to the c-file. And after ...Nxd3 cxd3, Black is poised to create a queenside passed pawn with ...b4 (perhaps prefaced by ...a5). Any thoughts?
  
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