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Normal Topic 3..Bf5 Old Indian (Read 4150 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: 3..Bf5 Old Indian
Reply #7 - 02/20/05 at 15:01:42
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John Cox wrote:

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I don't know that Y&T's suggestions are all that convincing, are they? 13 g4 looks like a shot in the dark to me: can't I just go back to e8 with the knight and activate the f8 rook with ...f6 or the like? And 13 Nd5 Nxd5 14 exd5 Na5 15 b3 doesn't really do it for me either...


Actually after 13.Nd5!? Nxd5, Y&T suggest that White should be slightly better with 14.cxd5!? Na5 15.b3.  Since 15.b3, "leaves the a5-knight quite badly placed."  As in the other variations White does look at least slightly better but proving it is another matter.  I looked at this for quite awhile with Fritz without finding anything overly convincing.  Fritz very much likes White at first here too, but gradually Black gets counterplay and seems to do OK.  There were even a few variations where Black took the a5-Knight via b7 to get it back into play.  It doesn't look like Black should have time for this but it seemed to work.  

I also looked again at Y&T's other suggestions for White (including trying to combine the suggestions in various mover orders) but didn't find anything really strong there either.  Having said that I certainly won't be surprised if someone finds a variation that makes Black life really uncomfortable.  Just hoping that this elusive variation is shared here!  8)



  
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John Cox
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Re: 3..Bf5 Old Indian
Reply #6 - 01/09/05 at 17:04:26
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Maybe that's the whole point of ...g6 (after 4 Nf3 that is) - to defend the bishop and thus prevent Qd3 in reply to ...Ne4? The position you mention's been played by some strong players for Black - ...e6 gaining a tempo and ...c5 coming quickly - but I agree you'd think White had to be better.

I don't know that Y&T's suggestions are all that convincing, are they? 13 g4 looks like a shot in the dark to me: can't I just go back to e8 with the knight and activate the f8 rook with ...f6 or the like? And 13 Nd5 Nxd5 14 exd5 Na5 15 b3 doesn't really do it for me either - is White really doing well after 15..b5 16 cxb5 Bxb5? I never know what to do in this sort of position - if I play f4 there's this huge square on e5, and if I don't what am I going to do? I can just see some ghastly ending already with me trying to defend d5...... Actually I've just tried playing this on against Fritz, borrowing his own suggestions, and it's one of those where he keeps saying White's better and better and better, and you just keep playing as Black, and all of a sudden the evaluation starts sinking, and sinking, and sinking.....and sure enough in the end White winds up in some rancid ending.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: 3..Bf5 Old Indian
Reply #5 - 01/06/05 at 17:38:32
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I've played this quite a lot in speed chess and the variation I personally find most annoying is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Bf5 4.g3 Ne4 5.Qd3!?  After the forced (?) 5...d5 isn't White better after 6.cxd5 Nxc3 7.Qxf5 Nxd5 if he shows a little care over the next few moves?  For instance it might be most accurate to play 8.a3 e6 9.Qc2 or was it 9.Qd3.  

By the way, doesn't Y & T's 4...e5! really deserve  4...e5?! instead.  Just following their suggested improvements for White seems to lead to a very pleasant position for the first player.
« Last Edit: 01/07/05 at 22:35:40 by Glenn Snow »  
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John Cox
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Re: 3..Bf5 Old Indian
Reply #4 - 01/06/05 at 13:09:17
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Aha - thank you. I really must learn to operate the search facility on here. I have to agree with Swedish IM from that thread that 6...exf3 in Belyavsky-Hickl was a terrible move (strangely this game isn't in Yrjola & Telli). Although in previous encounters White seems to have favoured the strange gxf3 in reply (not in this position, but generally) so Belyavsky's rather efficient play in this game was a new way of doing it.

And to be fair to Hickl the point of Belyavsky's move 6 Be3 was that the immediate 6...h5 is met with 7 Qb3 and now the natural 7...Qc8 runs into 8 fxe4 Nxe4 9 Bxe4 Bxe4 10 Bxa7! (thank you Fritz) winning a pawn, although Black retains a bit of compensation.

I don't think much of 7 Bh3 - I rather like your 7...d5, alumbrado (you're not the fellow plaguing me with this on the ICC, I don't suppose?). Glenn F's 4 g3 I like rather more - may have to give this a shot, although as I recall Y &T are pretty bullish about Black.

MNb, I think Modern Janowski (so to speak) advocates favour 4...g6 rather than the moves Reti played 4...h6 is really too much, I think.
  
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Paddy
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Re: 3..Bf5 Old Indian
Reply #3 - 01/06/05 at 08:29:07
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Subscribers have access to some good Old Indian material annotated by Andrew Martin (who also did a useful video on it some years ago, with the rather odd title of Anti-Flank Openings).  Martin concentrated on the conventional main lines with Nbd7, e5, Be7 etc but annotated two games with 3...Bf5 for Chess Publishing: Belyavsky-Hickl,  2001 and Vera- Nogueras 2002.

There is also some interesting discussion here on the forum under the heading:  "1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Bf5?! very hot ."

  
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alumbrado
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Re: 3..Bf5 Old Indian
Reply #2 - 01/06/05 at 02:57:06
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The best recent source for this is Yrjola and Tella's Explosive Opening Repertoire for Black.  I have been using it as a nice little back-up weapon for a while now, although I usually only play it once White is committed to Nf3.
After (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Bf5 4.Nf3 g6) 5.g3 Ne4 6.Nxe4 Bxe4 the 'theory move' is 7.Bh3!? intending 0-0 and then Nd2. 7...d5!? is then a very interesting response, planning to exchange on f3 and put all the pawns on light squares.
  

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MNb
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Re: 3..Bf5 Old Indian
Reply #1 - 01/06/05 at 00:43:46
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I love my ancient sources. In 1967 Pachman published Geschlossene Spiele; Indische Verteidigungen. I own the reworked translation with BH Wood as general editor of the early 70's. On page 268 I find 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nf3 Bf5 4.Nc3
a)4...h6 5.e3 (Euwe recommends 5.g3) Nbd7 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 e5 Grünfeld-Réti, Karlsbad 1923, 8.e4 +=.
b)4...Nbd7 5.g3 e5 6.d5 a5 7.Bg2 h6 8.o-o Nc5 9.Nd2 += because of e4 10.Qc2 Qe7 11.Nb3 +-.
  

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John Cox
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3..Bf5 Old Indian
01/05/05 at 22:58:54
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1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 d6 3 Nc3 Bf5!?

Some fellow keeps playing this against me on the internet, and I keep getting creamed. I have been plugging away with 4 f3 e5 5 e4 exd4 6 Qxd4 Nc6 7 Qd2 Be6. My waters tell me this has to be good for White, but after a series of unpleasant accidents I am forced to concede that Black's plan of ...g6...Bg7...a5....a4...Nd7....c5, in some order or other, is more annoying than it looks. I also don't care for 5 d5 e4 at all for White. I don't see how I'm going to force ...exf3 and if I can't do that then I've just horribly mistreated my structure for no good reason, to say nothing of preventing myself from developing the king's side for some time.

Would anyone care to suggest the surest route to White victory? Theory seems to like 4 Nf3 g6 5 Nh4, but I've talked to my king's knight about this and he doesn't like it - he says Black will just reply 5...Bd7 and that he'll shortly have to come back to f3 leaving Black ...Bd7 ahead of a normal King's Indian.

Of course 5 g3 Ne4 6 Nxe4 Bxe4 7 Bg2 Bg7 8 00 00 is a King's Indian line which I think is meant to be a small edge for White, but that represents rather a restriction of White's choices against the King's Indian.

I'd basically never heard of this move until about a week ago, but now I have I can't understand why it's not the main line of the Old Indian and quite a popular line generally - it has to be at least as good as that grovelling with ...Be7...c6 and so forth, doesn't it?
  
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