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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!? (Read 5481 times)
MNb
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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #14 - 01/10/05 at 07:39:45
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OK, the very last post then. The reasons I call that line Argentinian Attack, are threefold:
1. the systems with Be3/f3 have no name yet.
2. it was first played in an Argentinian championship of 1931 or 1932.
3. in the 50'ies the Pilnik and Rosetto had succes with it.
The advantage of 4.Be3 is that White keeps the option c6 5.h3 and 6.f4 open, as I have explained in another thread. But I am willing to repeat my arguments in the thread Michael Ayton will open.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #13 - 01/10/05 at 06:32:02
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Interesting posts. I too was under the impression (largely 'cos of material on this site!) that Black has no need to transpose to a Pirc with ...Nf6 in order to counter the Be3/Qd2 attack formation in the Modern, but should instead play 4 ...c6 (or ...a6!?) and 5 ...Nd7 -- my understanding was that it's precisely in such a context that the Modern, with its strategic deferral of ...Nf6, shows its teeth! But yes, we're off the original topic now -- so if I get time this evening I'll begin a new thread called 'Biggest threats to the Modern' or some such.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #12 - 01/10/05 at 05:45:47
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"Argentinian Attack"?  I am interested - what is the origin of that moniker?  I have never heard it referred to as such ...

For what it is worth, I think Black is doing OK in that variation after (1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3) 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7! holding back on ...b5 for the time being (at least until White has played 0-0-0) and keeping options open of ...Qc7, ...Qa5, ...e5, ...Bg7.

The problems with the Pirc are first and foremost the Austrian, then the 4.Bg5!? lines and finally a variety of fairly quiet systems (not least the fianchetto, but also the h3/Be3 lines) by which White can play for a nagging edge in a fairly peaceful position.

This last category (which is perhaps to be expected of more or less any Blak opening) would be fine if Black weren't struggling somewhat in the sharper lines ...
  

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MNb
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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #11 - 01/09/05 at 22:09:57
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My feeling is, that the AA is the 2nd most dangerous weapon against the Pirc. The first one is the Argentinian Attack: 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 keeping the option of f2-f3 open. This can hardly be avoided by the Robatsch, only by the Gurgenidze 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Be3 d5.
The socalled 150-Attack is an inferior form of the Argentinian Attack.
Though I must admit, that there are several lines of the Bg5 systems Black should better prepare, I still think this bishop is better on e3.
But we are getting far off-topic, so this is my last post on the subject of move order.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #10 - 01/08/05 at 19:38:48
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Thanks for this. I am greatly interested in the (four!?) main forms of the Gurgenidze, and may well try one of them at some point, but have decided to play the Modern instead for the moment, as I feel the need to bring more dynamism into my play (as well as feeling that at my humble level of play it's useful in practical terms to do so ).

In your last sentence do you mean, 'if it is not for the possibility it provides of AVOIDING the AA'? IF so I'm not sure I'd agree -- my feeling is that other lines against the Pirc (e.g. the Bg5 lines and maybe the 150 Attack) are at least as dangerous as anything White has (excepting only 4 f4) against the Modern.

  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #9 - 01/08/05 at 19:08:57
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If you are in for something different, you might consider 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 (or the other way round) 3.Nc3 c6 with the idea 4.f4 d5 5.e5 h5 and Black might not have lost but won a tempo, if the bishop is better on f8 than on g7.
What I meant is, I do not see much reason to prefer the Robatsch over the Pirc, if it is not for the AA.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #8 - 01/08/05 at 09:52:12
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H'm -- is it so remarkable? I wasn't saying that, in the position after 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4, I WOULD play 4 ...Nf6, merely that I might, and that that's the only way I as a Modern player might encounter an AA. Personally, I'd prefer to play 4 ...Nd7 5 Nf3 and now either 5 ...a6 or 5 ...c5, but there's an ongoing argument (expressed in other threads on this site) over the viability of both these lines. Feeling as I do that 4 f4 might well be White's strongest try after 3 ...d6 and a real challenge to Black's set-up, I'm just seeking to explore which Black response(s) might be soundest, irrespective of where they might transpose (4 ...Nd7 5 Nf3 c5 6 d5 a6, for instance, might produce an unusual Schmid Benoni).
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #7 - 01/08/05 at 08:14:54
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Remarkable, the Robatsch Defense 1...g6 is very often used exactly to avoid the Austrian Attack.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #6 - 01/07/05 at 19:10:40
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Thanks for all your replies. Well, I always did think the Pirc was vastly inferior to the Modern. playing which is the only way I'd reach an Austrian Attack (after 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4)! But seriously, 9 ...Kf8, with or without the 14 ...Nc6 plan, needs to be refuted before it's dismissed. And while Aagaard played a lovely combination against Nouro, we still need to know what he had prepared against 16 ...Kd7. Perhaps we should ask Eric Prie, since it was he who was on the receiving end of it!
  
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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #5 - 01/07/05 at 09:52:39
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Yes - life is really very difficult for Black in the Austrian.  I have now started playing the French and Scandinavian as my response to 1.e4, only entering a Pirc via 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 (intending 3.c4 Bf5) 3.Nc3 g6 4.e4 or 1.Nf3 d6!? etc.
Even then , I think Black has many problems in my view.  All in all, I am coming to the conclsion that the Pirc just gives White too much leeway  Sad
  

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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #4 - 01/07/05 at 09:16:21
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It seems that white has begun to avoid that forced draw and play for a win instead! Cheesy

There's a couple of recent Nataf games and Aagaard took an easy point in Rilton recently, see link below.

http://nyheder.dsu.dk/enkelt_nyhed.php?id=128
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #3 - 01/07/05 at 05:24:48
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Well, if you are playing somebody appreciably weaker than you, then by all means give 8...Bxb5 a punt but I have sat on the Black side of this position once or twice and it doesn't feel terribly comfortable.
The Austrian really is very strong, imho, and Black should be quite happy with a draw!
  

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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #2 - 01/07/05 at 01:10:07
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It is also not mentioned in "Starting out: the pirc", "Pirc Alert", or the pirc section in "An explosive chess opening repertoire for Black".

I was looking at what Fritz has to say, and after your 16. 0-0-0, Fritz perfers 16. ...Bg7. This turns out to prevent 17. g4 (which was strong after Rac8), because of 17. ...Qxc2! 18. Kxc2 Nd4+, picking up the queen. After this, Fritz evaluates the position as close to equal. But I would imagine that the human evaluation is similar to the lines with 9. ...Kd7, which seems to be that white has slightly better chances, because Black's king is more exposed.
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
Reply #1 - 01/06/05 at 19:21:42
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As I am not an expert at all on the Austrian Attack, I do not have thougths worth mentioning. But I can answer the question about Nunn/McNab: No.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Pirc: Austrian Attack 8 e6 Bb5!?
01/06/05 at 18:57:00
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A happy and prosperous new year to all!

I was wondering if Alumbrado or any other Pirc experts might have any views about Black's wisdom in avoiding, via 8 ...Bb5, the forced draw in the Pirc after 4 f4 Bg7 5 Nf3 c5 6 Bb5 Bd7 7 e5 Ng4 8 e6 fe 9 Ng5 Bb5 (10 Ne6 Bd4 11 Nd8! Bf2 =).  In particular I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts or analysis on 9 ef Kf8!?, with the forced-looking continuation 10 Nb5 Qa5 11 Nc3 cd 12 Nd4 Kf7. In the only game I can find where this was played (Mansurov--Ader, Budapest '93) Black quickly succumbed to an attack after 13 Qg4 (not forced, of course!) Bd4 14 Bd2 Qf5 15 Qf3 Nc6 16 0-0-0 Rac8 17 g4 Qa5 18 f5, but the defence can surely be improved. Perhaps Black should leave the Queen on the queenside to discourage 0-0-0, so why not 14 ...Nc6!? here? I was pleased to see Fritz likes this and seems to think Black's OK.  There are lots of messy variations, anyway, and it's surely a 'stronger player will win' position. Any thoughts? Do Nunn & McNab mention 9 ...Kf8?

  
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