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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C30-C39 C33: The Fascinating King's Gambit (Read 251895 times)
CraigEvans
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #166 - 11/16/05 at 07:54:19
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I'll post some replies to this when I get home this evening, though it could well be that white is scrambling for a draw - they were meant more as an illustration of white's possibilities after sacrificing the c-pawn than anything else - of course this isn't forced, and white is at least equal if he chooses not to. I think either 12.Qd3 or 14.Qd3 are probaby better choices, and 12.Bg5 also seems pretty playable from a white point of view.

One gut reaction, in your first line, Qd5 doesn't necessarily force an ending, although I'll have to take a look at what I jotted down before I give a definite answer.
  

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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #165 - 11/15/05 at 21:40:16
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I'm no expert as I always played the knight's gambit or other sidelines, but I don't recall 7...Nc6 being the correct continuation; however, looking at this game, perhaps ...Nc6 here is fine, instead of the more standard ...Bd6 clinging to the f-pawn for a few more moves at least. I may have preferred 12.Qd3, possibly forcing the exchange under favourable circumstances (12.h3 looks like, in some lines, it could become a weakness, and I doubt white needs a luft here), but your suggestion of 12.Bg5 looks fine to and, in practice, I'd prefer white here with his bishop pair. 

Anyway, 12.h3 Bxe2 13.Qxe2 Ne4 and now perhaps it's worth looking at sacrificing the doubled c-pawn (temporarily at the least) with 14.Rae1!?, for example 14.Rae1 Nxc3 15.Qd3 Ne4 and now:

a) 16.Bxd5!? Qxd5 17.Rxe4 Nb4!? [Sharpest. 17...f5 seems to lead to a drawish endgame after 18.Re3 Qxd4 19.Qb3+ Kh8 20.Qxb7 Rae8 21.Qxc6 Rxe3 22.Bxe3 Qxe3+ 23.Kh1 but, I suppose, white does have a passed c-pawn...] 18.Qf3 [By contrast, 18.c4? Nxd3 19.cxd5 looks like a grim endgame, though with the bishop v knight probably can be held.] and there is another fork:

a1) 18...Nxc2 19.Be5! Qc6 20.d5! Qc5+ [The stunning point is 20...Qxd5?? 21.Qf6!!!!!!! (and yes, this many question marks are necessary!)] 21.Rf2!! f5 and white can take a draw with 22.Bxg7 Kxg7 23.Qg3+ Kh8 24.Qe5+ Kg8 25.Qg3+, or try for more with 25.Ree2!? Nd4?! [25...Rae8 26.Qg3+ seems to lead to a draw again...] 26.Re3! hoping for 26...Rf6?! (looks cute but fails) 27.Rd3! when white wins his piece back with interest. Sadly 26...f4!! seems to finally exhaust white's ideas and force the repetition.

However, white can hold onto his powerful bishop instead, and try his luck in the line 22.Qg3!? Rf7! [Not 22...g6 23.d6! with the prosaic threat of Qb3+] when white can try:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
a11) 23.Ref4 g6 24.Rh4!? [24.Bb2!? Rae8 25.d6!!?? just hurts my head and I'll leave everyone to work out their favourite ridiculous line] Re7! 25.Rh6! [Guaranteeing the draw] Rxe5 [Otherwise black sinks] 26.Qxe5 Nb4! 27.Qe6+ Kg7 28.Rh4!? [28.Rh5 is yet another draw] Nd3! 29.Kh2! Nxf2 and now 30.Qe5+ is another chance for the perpetual. However, 30.d6!? looks like a fun attempt to ignore white's material defecit and play on - however sadly black has the ridiculous 30...h5 31.Rc4 Qb6 32.Qe7+ Kh6 33.d7 Rd8 34.Rc8 Ne4! and now black can force the perpetual.

*deep breath*

a12) 23.Ree2 Nd4 24.Rd2 f4! 25.Qd3! Nf5 26.Bxf4 and I think white is probably better, rendering all the above superfluous. However, I got carried away looking at all the fun lines. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
a2) 18...Rac8 is probably the critical test, and since 19.Bh6!? is probably insufficient, white may have nothing better than 19.c3 Nxa2 20.Re3 Qxf3 21.Rfxf3 Rfd8 22.Re7! Rxc3! [22...Nxc3 23.Bd2 gives white a seemingly drawn position after 23...Nd5 24.Rxb7 Nf6! [Of course, not 24...Rc7 25.Rxc7 Nxc7 26.Ba5! winning] 25.Bg5 Rd7 26.Rxd7 (I haven't worked out 26.Rc3 fully, it may be playable) Nxd7 27.Ra3 Ra8 28.Ra5 f6 29.Bf4] 23.Rxc3 Nxc3 24.Bd2 Nb5 25.Rxb7 Nxd4 26.Be3 Nf5 27.Bxa7 which is, theoretically, a dead draw. 

Still, there's of course...

b) 16.c4 [The maniac's choice, white gives up a pawn for what may or may not be compensation. You decide...] Nb4!? 17.Qf3 dxc4 18.Rxe4 cxb3 19.Qxb3 Nd5 20.Be5! f6!? [Weakening the a2-g8 diagonal, but perhaps black has nothing better] 21.Bg3 Qd7 22.Rfe1! Kh8 23.Re6! Rad8 24.Rd6! Qf7 25.Ree6 and I think white has to be better here, his rooks and bishop own the board, and the queen is threatening the b7 pawn.

I've not gotten any further than this yet, I've enjoyed looking at these crazy lines too much. Perhaps I'll take the KG back up...


Craig Evans posted that commentary in another thread, but considering the game is here, I figured it'd be useful to actually copy it to this page as well.

Anyways, some improvements for Black might include:

16.c4 Nb4 17.Qf3 dxc4 18.Rxe4 cxb3 19.Qxb3 Qd5!, entering a pawn up endgame.

16.Bxd5 Qxd5 17.Rxe4 f5 18.Re3 Qxd4 19.Qb3+ Rf7 (why give up the pawn with Kh8?)

16.Bxd5 Qxd5 17.Rxe4 Nb4 18.Qf3 Rac8 19.c3 Nxa2 20.Re3 Qxf3 21.Rfxf3 and now b5 just cements Black's advantage. The c3-pawn is fixed, and White will be the one fighting for a draw.
  

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MNb
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #164 - 11/15/05 at 12:01:03
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This post hopes to make life for TopNotch easy; I hope he will comment on my game with Fuzishawa plus the improvements given.

MNb - Fuzishawa,R [C33]
em J50/P052 ICCF, 2001
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Nc3 c6 5.Bb3 d5 6.exd5 cxd5 7.d4 Nc6 8.Bxf4 Bb4 9.Nge2 Bg4 10.0-0 Bxc3 11.bxc3 0-0 12.h3 Bxe2 13.Qxe2 Ne4 14.Qf3 f5 15.Rae1 Qd7 16.c4 Nxd4 17.Qd3 Nxb3 18.cxb3 d4 19.Be5 Rad8 20.Rd1 Nc3 21.Rd2 Rfe8 22.Rxf5 g6 23.Rg5 Qc6 24.Qf5 Ne4 25.Rxd4 Nxg5 26.Qxg5 Rxd4 27.Bxd4 Qd6 28.Bc3 b6 29.a3 Qe7 30.Qd5+ Qe6 31.Qxe6+ Rxe6 32.Kf2 Kf7 33.Kf3 Rd6 34.Ke2 Ke6 35.g4 g5 36.b4 Kd7 0-1

I hoped for 12...Bh5 13.Bg5 Qe8 14.Bxf6 += and assumed that the game continuation was about equal.
12.Bg5 Qe8 13.Bxf6 Qxe2 14.Qxe2 Bxe2 15.Rfe1 Bg4 16.Bh4 Be6 is dead equal.
I was not satisfied with 9.Nf3 Qe7+ 10.Ne5 Ne4 11.o-o Nxc3 12.bxc3 Bxc3 13.Bxd5 Bxd4+ 14.Kh1 o-o completely equal.
White's best try is 8.Nf3 transposing to other lines.
These are imo the important lines.

Taljechin's most important reaction was:
Btw, in the game, I think 14.Qd3 (supporting pawn-d4 and intending c3-c4) is an improvement.

So now it is TN's turn.
  

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John Simmons
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #163 - 11/02/05 at 12:22:52
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Hello,

I must admit to not knowing what the Urusov  was, until did a bit of googleing just now. I have a bit of Alekhine in me, in not wanting to bother with pawn sacs in the opening, unfortunately the only bit, so would autually play 4...Nc6 in response to the gambit. The only other move that would interest me is 4...d5.  Anway, going off topic.

Bye John S
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #162 - 11/02/05 at 08:57:12
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John,

Thanks, I usually play 2...Nf6, but the Susan Polgar article on the Urusov that appeared in Chess Life (in the US) has scared some club players away from it.  Polgar admits the Urusov doesn't give White an advantage against a well-prepared opponent in the introduction to her article, but she gives quite a bit of analysis by Chess Life standards to the opening.  I guess I should just advise my students to bite the bullet and play 2.Nf3 or learn the transpositions.
  
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MNb
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #161 - 11/02/05 at 05:32:42
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Smyslov_Fan, your post is in exactly the right thread. 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nc6 or 2.Bc4 Nc6 3.f4 exf4 is the Duras Defence of the King's Bishop Gambit - one of the most important ones. TJ gives a lot of new ideas and fresh analysis in his book.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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John Simmons
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #160 - 11/02/05 at 04:59:17
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Hello,

I am learning this stuff too, so not 100% on the answer. If transposing to King's Gambit after 2...Nc6 is good, as seems likely, then a easy fix is 2...Nf6. Can easily fit in Nc6 later. Maybe there is some problem if student is not playing the two knights?

Bye John S
  
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #159 - 11/02/05 at 01:35:59
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I'm sure this is answered elsewhere, perhaps even in this thread but I didn't see it so....

When White plays the Urusov move order: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4  and Black responds with 2...Nc6, does White get any special advantage by switching to the KG with 3.f4?  I haven't researched this line for any independent significance, but it cropped up in one of my student's games recently.  Thanks for your help!
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #158 - 09/27/05 at 10:32:02
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I've now seen Bücker's review, and since someone asked about the Nordwalder ca 5 pages back in this thread, I should perhaps mention that his new mainline is 2...Qf6 3.Nc3 Qxf4 4.d4 Qf6'!?' claiming black is OK after 5.dxe5

[5.Nf3 exd4 6.Nd5 was played in the latest practical outing i.e. Zill,C-Vonach,B Augsburg 2001 1-0, 38.

and

5...Bb4 6.dxe5 in Anderson Renard (USA)-Standig Joshua King's Gambit Tmt, SF 1994 1-0, 23. Unfortunately, the review doesn't mention what black should play after 5.Nf3. Anyone here with Kaissiber 19? ]

5...Qxe5N

[5...Qg6 was seen in Halasz,T-Hector,J Ballerup 1985 1-0,57]

6.Nf3 Qe7 7.Bc4 Nc6'!' - is a suggestion from Narciso in Kaissiber 19.

One line from Bücker's review then goes: 8.Bf4 d6 (the natural 8...Nf6? 9.Ng5 ends in a pretty mate at move 18! Grin ) 9.Nd5 Qd7 etc.

In my opinion white has obvious compensation for the pawn at the very least, and frankly I can't understand why anyone would want to play this as black. ??? Apparently, no one has either...
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #157 - 09/25/05 at 02:45:42
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Quote:
TalJechin seems to be too busy to investigate this indeep - or he is still tired of writing an excellent book - so we thought it wise to post this game here. My thought is, that TJ underestimates the move Nc6 a bit. If Black exchanges on c3 and blockades square c4, then Bb3 is out of play and the doubled pawns are an enduring weakness.
Any comments?


Well, after 7...Nc6 white has replied 8.Bxf4 every time in practice. But 8...Bb4N may be an indicator that 8.Nf3 or 8.Nge2 are more precise move orders - especially since an early ...Nc6 is not the most precise move order for black in the Fischer or Silverman Short Gambits...  Roll Eyes

Btw, in the game, I think 14.Qd3 (supporting pawn-d4 and intending c3-c4) is an improvement.

During the work on the FKG, I actually considered 7...Bb4 and 8...Nc6 (even though I had completely forgot about MNb's game) but concluded that Nc6 in those positions were not contributing much to the plan of: ...Be6, ...Qc7, ...Nbd7-b6, i.e. overprotecting square-c4 and then attacking pawn-c3 with ...Ne4 and/or piling up along the c-file with Rc8 etc.
- But a 7/8...Nc6 blocks the c-file and allows a potential Bg5 pin...

So in conclusion, I don't really see why this game would be the reason to abandon the KG!
Maybe it's MNb's Spielmann devotion that cause him to see a Krankenlager in every loss?! ???


By the way, German visitors here curious about the FKG and recent reviews of it, can check the latest issue (21) of Kaissiber for Stefan Bücker's opinion on it.

And Hartmut Metz reviewed it in Rochade Europa in the October issue. This review will probably soon be available on the Rochade Kuppenheim site too: http://www.rochadekuppenheim.de/
« Last Edit: 11/15/05 at 13:03:36 by TalJechin »  
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MNb
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #156 - 09/23/05 at 15:44:09
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It has been a few years, since I have played the King's Bishop Gambit for the last time. This game made me abandon it - temporarily I hope. Here it is:

Nieuweboer,M - Fuzishawa,R [C33]
em J50/P052 ICCF, 2001
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Lc4 Pf6 4.Pc3 c6 5.Lb3 d5 6.exd5 cxd5 7.d4 Pc6 8.Lxf4 Lb4 9.Pge2 Lg4 10.0-0 Lxc3 11.bxc3 0-0 12.h3 Lxe2 13.Dxe2 Pe4 14.Df3 f5 15.Tae1 Dd7 16.c4 Pxd4 17.Dd3 Pxb3 18.cxb3 d4 19.Le5 Tad8 20.Td1 Pc3 21.Td2 Tfe8 22.Txf5 g6 23.Tg5 Dc6 24.Df5 Pe4 25.Txd4 Pxg5 26.Dxg5 Txd4 27.Lxd4 Dd6 28.Lc3 b6 29.a3 De7 30.Dd5+ De6 31.Dxe6+ Txe6 32.Kf2 Kf7 33.Kf3 Td6 34.Ke2 Ke6 35.g4 g5 36.b4 Kd7 0-1

Black is a strong corr player from Brasil. Of course I should have been sensible and gone for a draw. Two improvements are:

12.Lg5 De8 13.Lxf6 Dxe2 14.Dxe2 Lxe2 15.Tfe1 Lg4 16.Lh4 Le6
which looks very equal to me; Black will play the knight to c4.

9.Pf3 De7+ 10.Pe5 Pe4 11.0-0 Pxc3 12.bxc3 Lxc3 13.Lxd5 Lxd4+ 14.Kh1 0-0 15.Pxc6 bxc6 16.Lxc6 Lxa1 17.Lxa8 La6 18.Ld6 De2 19.Dxe2 Lxe2 20.Te1 Txa8 21.Txe2 is also dead equal.

But we do not play the KG to accept an early draw, do we? So in the best tradition of my hero I unwisely took the gamble and lost. Black's eight move was a novelty, compare the FKG on page 34. Looking for other possibilities, I set my eyes on page 47: 5.Nf3 d5 6.exd5 cxd5 7.Bb3 Nc6 (passive on page 34, but not on page 47) 8.d4 Bb4?! (Bd6 transposes to page 41) 9.o-o (in stead of 9.Bxf4, which transposes to my last line) o-o 10.Bxf4 (only now!) and White has chances for an advantage.
So my conclusion is, that White must develope first and only then take back the pawn.

TalJechin seems to be too busy to investigate this indeep - or he is still tired of writing an excellent book - so we thought it wise to post this game here.My thought is, that TJ underestimates the move Nc6 a bit. If Black exchanges on c3 and blockades square c4, then Bb3 is out of play and the doubled pawns are an enduring weakness.
Any comments?
  

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TalJechin
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #155 - 08/21/05 at 07:10:25
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Sorry, you're right. VISA Electron can't be used for online purchase - only in a store with a cardreader.

- I had to upgrade my own card when paying trafford for the printing...
« Last Edit: 08/22/05 at 17:24:20 by TalJechin »  
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #154 - 08/21/05 at 06:47:26
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Quote:
The FKG can be bought online at http://www.trafford.com/robots/04-2455.html - VISA, MasterCard or Cheque are available, but doesn't show until you've selected shipping, country etc and click on "I'm Ready To Pay"

and if you mean the Creative Aggressor, it's probably still available online at New in Chess (or at its publisher, Kania schachverlag, but probably not online).


Visa Electron seems not to be usable at trafford.com.

I mean FKG.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #153 - 08/21/05 at 06:37:25
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Quote:
Can this book be bought online somewhere using Visa Electron?


The FKG can be bought online at http://www.trafford.com/robots/04-2455.html - VISA, MasterCard or Cheque are available, but doesn't show until you've selected shipping, country etc and click on "I'm Ready To Pay"

and if you mean the Creative Aggressor, it's probably still available online at New in Chess (or at its publisher, Kania schachverlag, but probably not online).
  
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ukko from finland
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #152 - 08/21/05 at 06:05:04
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Can this book be bought online somewhere using Visa Electron?
  
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