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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C30-C39 C33: The Fascinating King's Gambit (Read 260399 times)
FightingDragon
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #121 - 05/03/05 at 08:00:26
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Dear Fernando,
would you mind posting your game with 10.Bb5?  Grin
So far I' ve analysed the position after 9.Nc3 Qe7 a bit and came to the conclusion that 10.Kd2 could be the best move (if 
not objectively, then at least for shocking value Shocked). I read Michael Jensen's article in CCNews and it all sounds convincing, except for 10.Kd2 Kf8!? as given by Buecker. Perhaps white can improve by 11.Re1!?
Concerning 10.Bb5, I thought it to give black the better chances after 10. ... c6 11.dc6: bc6: 12.Nd5 Qe6.
The piece sacrifice suggested by Jensen 13.0-0!? from my point of view doesn't give white enough compensation after 13. ... cb5: 14.Nf4: Nf4: 15.Bf4: 0-0! 
And  13. Nc7+ leads to a position with queen against three minor pieces, on his website TalJechin had a look at it.
Play continues 13. ... Bc7: 14.Bc4 Qe7 15.Bf7:+ Qf7: 16.Nf7: Kf7: 17.0-0.
Fritz likes that position for white but as I went deeper into the position (once with Fritz and another time analysing with an IM) I came to the conclusion that if black gets his pieces out (which I think he manages with exact play), soon white is the one who has to defend against a dangerous attack. I can't "refute" TalJechins analysis now, 
but if I remember correctly (it was over a year ago) black should play something like 17. ... Nd7!? 18.Qg4: Ndf6 19.Qf3 Bd7 20.Re1 Rhe8 21.Bd2 when TalJechin thinks white should advance his queenside majority and his chances are preferable. Instead of 20. ... The8 
20. ... Thg8!? is interesting with the idea to start play on the g-file immediately. With white's queenside still dormant 
I think it's rather him than black who should be careful.
  
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Fernando Semprun
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #120 - 05/02/05 at 17:21:22
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I had analysed 10.Kd2 in the past and thought it was no good, but I have been convincingly beaten with 10.Bb5 in a thematic KG tournament (e-mail). I failed to come with an answer to 6...d6 though (Fedorov-Carlssen 2004 looks as best for white). As usual in the KG, fighting for a draw...

Interesting line, for sure
  

Fernando Semprun
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TalJechin
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #119 - 05/02/05 at 11:03:24
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Nice idea that 10.Kd2!?, something of an improved Rice Gambit considering the Re1 pin... Cheesy

I'm not sure if you're aware of the predecessor but there's actually an earlier game with 10.Kd2, i.e:


Jerez Perez,A (2300) - Estrada Nieto,J (2340) [C39]
Barbera op Barbera (5), 1997

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nf6 6.Bc4 d5 7.exd5 Bd6 8.d4 Nh5 9.Nc3 Qe7 10.Kd2 Bxe5 11.Re1 Nd7 12.Qxg4 Ndf6 13.Qg5 Bd6 14.Rxe7+ Kxe7 15.Qh6 Rg8 16.Bd3 Kd8 17.Ne4 Bf8 18.Qxf6+ Nxf6 19.Nxf6 Rxg2+ 20.Kc3 Rg1 21.Nxh7 Be7 22.Ng5 Bxg5 23.hxg5 f3 24.g6 fxg6 25.Bf1 f2 26.Kd3 Bf5+ 27.Ke2 Bxc2 28.Kxf2 Rg4 29.Be3 Bf5 30.Be2 Re4 31.Bf3 Re8 32.Bf4 Kd7 33.Rc1 Rac8 34.Be5 Rf8 35.Kg3 g5 36.Rc3 a6 37.Rb3 Rb8 38.Rc3 Rbc8 39.Rb3 g4 40.Bg2 Rb8 41.Rc3 Rbc8 42.Rb3 Rb8 43.Rc3 Rbc8 ½-½
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #118 - 05/02/05 at 09:28:26
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Ok guys

I did not intend to publish this game but here it is:

Jensen-NN, Danish Ch 2005.

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nf6 6.Bc4 d5 7.ed5 Bd6 8.d4 Nh5 9.Nc3! Qe7 10.Kd2!? Here it is. I can assure you that the kibbitzers understood nothing. 10...Bxe5 11.Re1 0-0 (I had only prepared specific variations for 11...f6) 12.dxe5 (12.Rxe5 Qxh4 13.Ne4 intending Rxh5 looks clever but 13...Nd7 spoils the fun) Qc5 (12...Qxh4 13.Ne4 with the threat of returning the rook to h1 is dangerous for Black) 13.Bd3 Ng3 14.Ne4 (forced) Nxe4 15.Rxe4 Qxd5 16.Qf1! Only with this move does White gain compensation. 16...f5? (16...Nd7 w/idea Nc5 looks about even) after making his move my opponent resigned as he thought he had dropped his queen to 17.Bc4 not realizing that Bc4 is illegal. A very strange experience which unfortunately spoils the game but perhaps I will send it to the Informator guys anyway. 17.exf6 is +/-

Maybe there is still some life in the old KG!? And what would I have done against 5...d6, well that is a question for next time...  Wink
  
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MNb
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #117 - 04/29/05 at 08:04:24
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In my opinion everything on the advantages and disadvantages on 2.f4 has been said by now. That Alumbrado and I do not agree is clear and normal.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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TalJechin
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #116 - 04/29/05 at 07:25:41
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Alas, this discussion is a bit off topic indeed... But it's not an uninteresting side topic! Cheesy

Though I'm not sure exactly which wing gambit we're comparing with or if it's just generally a b4 sac in any variation?

As I stated earlier, I don't believe in the wing gambit proper i.e. 1.e4 c5 2.b4 but 2.a3!? with the positional idea of opening the a-file is interesting as white does get a lot of piece activity in most lines and still retains the option of not playing b4 vs for example 2...g6!?

The French Wing gambit 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.e5 c5 4.b4 is perhaps slightly unsound but in OTB practice I'd say white probably has enough play for the pawn.

The main difference between the KG and WGs in my opinion is that the KG is much more dynamic as threat and counter threat flow naturally in most lines, while WGs usually take awhile before the 'real' play takes off as both sides develop without much concrete threats, and white has a systemlike approach in many lines....

But maybe this discussion could be moved to General Chess or at least continued  there?  Undecided
  
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alumbrado
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #115 - 04/29/05 at 05:51:11
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Well, I have seen a few KG games where White has ended up getting mated on the kingside or caught in the crossfire in the middle of the board (I admit that Black doesn't often get mated directly in the Dutch, although that doesn't mean his king position is not a worry for him).
I agree though, both the KG and the Wing Gambit have pluses and minuses.  I was disputing merely the idea that the KG was based on a sound positional idea and that (by implication) the Wing Gambit was not.  Again, this does not mean that they are both sound, and it may well be that the KG is objectively better than the Wing Gambit - fact is, though, we will probably never find out for sure!  Undecided
Right, I'll shut up now as this is veering off topic!  Lips Sealed
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #114 - 04/28/05 at 21:03:43
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As Alumbrado's opinion on the f-pawn is supported by greats like Wch Petrosjan and GM Mednis, it is rather arrogant to contradict him. But still I have two closely related questions:
1. How many games after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 do end with a vicious Black attack?
2. How many games after 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 do end with a vicious White attack?

The answer is: only a few. So my conclusion is, that both openings may have some disadvantages and risks, but that the weakening of the king's position is overrated.
I cannot be hard for Alumbrado to guess what my favourite answer was against the Ruy Lopez.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #113 - 04/28/05 at 07:58:43
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@MNb: There are certainly advantages to the King's Gambit over the Wing Gambit, but you fail to mention the disadvantages: for one, White's king is considerably safer in the Wing Gambit.  We know that you think nothing of weakening your king's position with an early thrust of the f-pawn (with either colour) but some of us are not so "courageous"!!  Wink
  

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TalJechin
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #112 - 04/28/05 at 06:31:42
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I think it was Short in his Daily Telegraph column that mentioned that Kramnik found the Evans Gambit quite logical but simply couldn't comprehend the King's Gambit... (which I can understand - since it's not easy to bore the opponent into a draw within 20 moves in the KG, despite that there *are* many forced draws! Grin )

The Wing gambit proper 1.e4 c5 2.b4 is not to my liking - I've only played it once and then I won so it's not completely toothless...  -  but the van Duijn / Bezgodov with 2.a3!? is quite interesting I think. The concrete variations may not be too similar (though there is a KG hybrid available after 2...e5 3.f4 or 3.Nc3, 4.Bc4, 5.d3 & f4) but the general ambition certainly is! Cheesy

  
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MNb
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #111 - 04/28/05 at 05:26:39
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There is quite a difference between a Black pawn on b4, hampering development of White's queen's knight, and a Black pawn on f4, inviting Black to weaken his queenside further. In the King's Gambit Accepted White has two centre pawns (centre being narrow centre) against one; in the Wing's Gambit this is not the case.
So in the King's Gambit White has an enduring lasting majority in the centre, in the Wing's Gambit this majority is only temporary.
In my opinion the similarities are only superficial.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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alumbrado
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #110 - 04/28/05 at 03:47:37
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I am not so sure the positional ideas behind the Wing Gambit are very different to those of the King's Gambit.

In both cases White is basically trying to deflect a black pawn away from the centre in order that he can then take over the centre himself, preferably with a lead in development into the bargain, as the basis for a successful attack.

The specifics are (obviously) different - and it may be that both are sound, that one is sound and another not, or that both are unsound.  (I suspect that neither 2.f4 nor 2.b4 are the strongest moves in the respective positions, but both are certainly playable.)  But the basic idea is the same.
  

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MNb
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #109 - 04/27/05 at 05:34:16
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If your ELO keeps on rising, you will meet more opponents who know how to deal with unsound gambits like the wings gambit. Will it still be fun then?
The King's Gambit though is based on a sound positional idea.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #108 - 04/27/05 at 03:08:49
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now that i've reached the 1600 level and can see blunders alot more clearly than i could when i first tried king's gambit at 1300 or so, i've grown to like it alot!

i've been playing from gallagher's old book, which it seems that MOST amateur players leave quickly with many lines that can't transpose to gallagher's.

i got sick of playing 2.d4 with a "pseudo danish" except i take c3 with Nc3 and decided to try KG again. i'm glad that i did!

king's gambit games are often extremely ugly to me, but they're also rich in tactical opportunities which is ALL that i ever want in an opening.

as there's an actual chance that a book writing GM is reading my reply...
sorry guys...
most of the "positionally sound" lines that you like are beyond boring to an amateur player. i'll take "unsound" wing gambit over grand prix attack or smith morra ANY day!

if you'd REALLY like to write a chessbook for amatuers... take an unsound gambit line and build a totally kamikazee repertoire around it that ISN'T based on "logical grandmaster replies" LOL very few of my opponents play like you do, and MOST of the book lines i've studied aren't as aggresive as i've seen more than one 1200 get away with playing! LOL

king's gambit is definately fun. even when i have no idea what's going on, the opening still seems to offer potential to "find a target' which is how i play.

king's gambit is an awesome opening for a tactical player. it sure suits my style. i'd like to study it more to get better at it as even without study, it seems to offer me the kinds of opportunities i only DREAM about in the boring stonewall formation.
  
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Re: The Fascinating King's Gambit
Reply #107 - 04/23/05 at 12:31:38
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Thanks for the advice.  I will give it a try and see what happens.  Will post any interesting games if I get some.

Justin
  
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