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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Saragossa (Read 7854 times)
HgMan
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #23 - 04/29/06 at 21:00:52
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I thought I might enter the ICCF World Open and give the Saragossa a bash.  I hope I'll be forgiven if I skip the Castlerock Gambit of the Avery Variation, but there some interesting transpositions into the Bird and reversed Old Indians and Slavs that look like fun.  Nice for a change, anyway...
  

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castlerock
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #22 - 09/16/05 at 23:26:58
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Quote:
Step two: write a book on it! Some fellow posters without any doubt will share their experience  Cheesy


Step One and a half - Lets take a geocities site. Call it Avery Variation of Saragossa and publish your blitz games. Throw in a gambit. It's simple. If black plays d5, throw in e4 and if black plays e5 throw in f4.Tongue

I too want a shot at immortality. So let's call it CASTLEROCK'S GAMBIT in Avery Variation of Saragossa. Cheesy

Let's call the ones who refuse to see the greatness of this lines ... well you know what! Tongue Cheesy Register some key words and challange eveyone in the Forum to google "CASTLEROCK'S GAMBIT in Avery Variation of Saragossa" Wink

Are you game Smyslov_Fan?
  

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MNb
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #21 - 09/10/05 at 16:36:01
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"I won't call it the Avery Variation"
Why not? As the German proverb goes:
Bescheidenheit ist eine Zier, aber weiter kommt man ohne ihr.
Modesty makes good cheer, but one gets further without it.
Step two: write a book on it! Some fellow posters without any doubt will share their experience  Cheesy
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #20 - 09/10/05 at 16:26:47
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I have, in many blitz games, scored well with 1.Na3 (anything) 2.c3.  So 1.c3 (anything) 2.Na3 should score equally well!  Actually, I get quite interesting games this way, and score very well.  Of course, it isn't theoretically sound, and I won't call it the "Avery Variation of the Saragossa" or anything like that, but it's fun.
  
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Holbox
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #19 - 09/10/05 at 16:19:30
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A friend of mine play's play's it in this way:

1.c3 e5 2.d4 ed 3.Qd4 Nc3 4.Qe4+ Be7 4.Nf3 d5 5.Qc2

As in the Scandinavian's Patzer variation.

What do Scandi's think about?

  

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castlerock
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #18 - 09/06/05 at 23:09:55
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These openings are not to be underestimated. I suspect we will get to see more and more of these openings as a remedy to over booked openings. Incidentally, I have another thread running here with 1.e3 and 1...e6.

This is not to be underestimated because the practitioners are usually good enough to find nice moves in the opening and it is their strength they rely on.
« Last Edit: 09/07/05 at 07:16:44 by castlerock »  

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Bonsai
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #17 - 09/06/05 at 16:52:35
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I fear 1.c3 f5 2.e4 might really be quite nice for white after 2...fxe4. I wonder, what about 2...e5? Would ...c7-c6 be a really useful extra move in the King's Gambit?

Or maybe 2...d6? Surely that's much better here than after e.g. 1.d4 f5 2.e4 or 1.Nf3 f5 2.e4. To me that looks quite okay for black, although there are of course some light-squared weaknesses.

I guess 1.c3 f5 2.Na3 e5 3.Nc2 would lead to some non-standard Modern/Pirc (or a variation on the Caro-Kann?) reversed and it's probably quite okay for both sides. Although my suspicion is that white could use the extra move more usefully.

I doubt 1 c3 d5 2 d4 e5 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 dxe5 f6 5 ef6 Nxf6 is a good idea considering how critical these positions are when white is playing them with an extra move.
  
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #16 - 09/06/05 at 16:19:04
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[quote author=lost highway  link=1106166460/0#13 date=1120329006]American master Keith Hayward (2300) used to play 1.c3 and 2.Qc2 against anything, anybody, all the time in OTB tournaments.  I don't know if he still does.  I think he also played it in correspondence games.[/quote]
I played the Hanham formation (I was a fan of Alekhine) as White and Black in my early years to avoid main line book and to mask my opening weaknesses. I was frustrated with opening theory, I kept making subtle opening mistakes, and I played: P-QB3, Q-B2, P-Q3, N-Q2, P-K4 with almost blinders on. The approach worked surprisingly well considering most opponents knew it was coming. The Hanham formation is better than its reputation. Plus me being a good defender helped.

Hayward,K - Curdo,J (2357) [A00]
Honeywell W Billerica MA (3), 30.07.1977
1 c3 e5 2 Qc2 d5 3 d3 Nc6 4 Nd2 f5 5 e4 Nf6 6 Ngf3 Bd6 7 Be2 0-0 8 0-0 h6 9 h3 fxe4 10 dxe4 dxe4 11 Nxe4 Nxe4 12 Qxe4 Bf5 13 Qc4+ Kh8 14 Be3 e4 15 Nd4 Ne5 16 Qb3 Bxh3 17 gxh3 Qh4 18 Rfd1 Qxh3 19 Qe6 Qh4 20 Kg2 Nd3 21 Bxd3 Qh2+ 22 Kf1 exd3 23 Qg4 Rae8 24 Qg2 Qh4 25 Rxd3 Bg3 26 Nf3 Qc4 27 Rad1 Bf4 28 Bd4 Rf7 29 b3 Qa6 30 a4 b5 31 axb5 Qxb5 32 c4 Qh5 33 Re1 Ref8 34 Re2 Qf5 35 Ne1 c5 36 Be3 Bc7 37 Rd5 Qb1 38 Bxc5 Rg8 39 b4 a6 40 Qe4 Qb3 41 Rd3 Qa4 42 Bd4 Rgf8 43 Bc5 Rg8 44 Nf3 Qa1+ 45 Re1 Qf6 46 Nh4 Rc8 47 Ng6+ Kg8 48 Ne7+ Rxe7 49 Bxe7 1-0

Dunne,A (2178) - Hayward,K [B12]
NH Open Manchester NH (3), 06.08.1977
1 e4 c6 2 d4 Qc7 3 Nc3 d6 4 Nf3 Nd7 5 Be3 e5 6 Bc4 Be7 7 Qe2 b5 8 Bb3 b4 9 Qc4 bxc3 10 Qxf7+ Kd8 11 Qxg7 Bf6 12 Bg5 cxb2 13 Rb1 Qa5+ 14 Kd1 Kc7 15 Bxf6 Ngxf6 16 Qxh8 Nxe4 17 c3 Qxc3 18 Rxb2 Qxb2 19 Bc2 Qa1+ 20 Ke2 Ba6+ 21 Ke3 Qc3+ 0-1

Notice that I refuted dangerous attacks ... this is not an easy life and cannot be recommended for most.

Good Chess! Keith
  
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #15 - 07/25/05 at 03:15:18
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I have tremendous success playing 1.c3 2.Na3 3.Nc2! in lightning games!  I know it isn't really an opening, but it's amazing how many unusual and cool tactical positions White gets with the N on c2.  I've tried it in some slow games (that is, 5 minute games Grin) and it hasn't been totally busted yet!  The f5 idea kinda hits air against this type of set-up, and White doesn't have to play e4 to get an unclear position!

Okay, I haven't had the guts to try it out in a serious game against a quality opponent, but I like confusing people. Embarrassed
  
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #14 - 07/12/05 at 21:38:04
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Since you asked about the Saragossa, I will tell you about someone who plays it: John Burke of New York.
He usually plays 1 c3 and 2 Qc2  against his opponents.
At first I tried to transpose into the Soller Gambit -- a reverse BDG -- with 1 c3 d5 2 d4 e5 3 Nf3 Nc6 4 dxe5 f6
5 ef6 Nxf6, with mixed results.  So, to avoid giving my opponent counter-attacks, I went for calm play against 1 c3 . It worked! With no cheapos available for him -- and he likes cheapo shots! -- I easily defeated him.
  
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #13 - 07/02/05 at 18:30:06
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American master Keith Hayward (2300) used to play 1.c3 and 2.Qc2 against anything, anybody, all the time in OTB tournaments.  I don't know if he still does.  I think he also played it in correspondence games.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #12 - 07/02/05 at 09:47:52
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Apart from the 1 ... f5 ideas above, I wonder if 1 c3 has any value as a Pirc or Modern with an extra move.  I'm looking at ideas with White pawns on a4, b4, c3, d3, f4, and g3, with the idea of pushing e4 (I know, I know: with the advantage of the first move, why doesn't White just play e4, rather than work to play it later...).  It doesn't appear too aggressive, and with an opening move like 1 c3, I don't suppose I'm looking for an opening advantage, but rather a position that quickly gets opponents out of book.  Move orders notwithstanding, is there any potential here?
  

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Re: Saragossa
Reply #11 - 01/22/05 at 20:18:41
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It would appear that there's a relatively (1999) new book on the Saragossa, written by Ferdinand Schmidt, a German correspondence master.  I was surprised to find it on the USCF bookstore site.  The title is: Die Verkannte Schach-Eröffnung, Saragossa 1 c2-c3.
  

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Re: Saragossa
Reply #10 - 01/21/05 at 11:06:23
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The Qb3 idea looks like it could be annoying to a Leningragd Dutch player but I don't see how it would bother the Stonewall or Classical systems.  GM Ian Rogers' system for meeting 1...f5 was 2.f4 (or 2.g3) 2...Nf6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.Nh3! 0-0 6.0-0 d6 7.Nd2 with the idea of Qb3+, e4, and Nf4 or Ng5.  Rogers was quoted as saying, "This system works only slightly less well against the Stonewall and the Classical Dutch (Against the Stonewall, Whites Q-Knight goes to f3 and the KN to d3)...Knights on d3 and f3 are very nasty against the Stoneall as Black's Kingside attack is then very difficult to prosecute.  A common plan in the main lines of the Stonewall is b3, Ba3, Nxa3, Nc2-d3 -- this idea is similiar."  I personally don't understand how that system would be all that threatening to the Stonewall, anymore than the same plan would be with the pawn on c4 instead of c3.  And I really don't see how that would threaten the Classical Dutch. 

Another anti-f5 system was dicussed, namely 1.c3 f5 {B} 2.Qc2!? {/b} with the following ideas

     (a) 3...g6 3.h4!
     (b) 3...e6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Bg5 with the idea of 4.Nd2 & e4
     (c)  3...d6! 3.d3 idea e4, or 3.g3 idea d3 & e4

MNb's idea of 1.c3 e6 disguising Black's intention to play ...f5 might be a good practical idea for Black.  I haven't seen any analysis on that in the MOB's articles.  White could try a variety of responses such as 2.f4, 2.d3, 3.g3, or how about 2.d4 f5 3.g4!?.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #9 - 01/21/05 at 07:50:15
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Yikes!  The Gods must be crazy!!   Wink

I've taken to playing the Bird as White and have found that one of the most difficult lines to face involves Black playing an early c6 and swinging the queen out for an annoying Qb6+.  I wonder if White can't try similar kinds of plans here, though it may ultimately involve pushing the QP to d4--don't know whether it would ultimately transpose into one of those d4-openings...
  

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Re: Saragossa
Reply #8 - 01/21/05 at 03:30:04
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Well, we won't cast you out from Olympus just yet ... but I have been trying to tell you for months that no good can come of these early thrusts with the f-pawn  Tongue
(This from someone who is seriously considering taking up the King's Gambit Shocked )
  

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MNb
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #7 - 01/20/05 at 21:39:07
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"a total blunder"
Even gods are fallible. What is worse, I simply believed you without checking.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #6 - 01/20/05 at 17:56:14
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I've located the articles in "The Myers Openings Bulletin" and will start searching for relevant material. (Incidentally, while researching 1.c3, I noticed an article by L.Day on 1.e4 c5 2.a3 from 1993.   This variation is being discussed in the "Anti-Sicilians" section right now.  Never get rid of your old material!)

One quick note now is that my (after 1.c3 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.d3) 3...e5 is a total blunder because of the obvious 4.Qh5+.  The correct move order is 3...Nf6 4.dxe4 e5!.

I'll check to see if anything was recommended after 1.c3 e6.  I don't think anyone ever really thought White could fight for an egde with 1.c3, but it can lead to interesting dynamic (and at least equal) play if one is creative enough.  What does White play after 1.c3 c6?  Grin
  
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MNb
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #5 - 01/20/05 at 15:47:17
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Haven't thought of this. One should probably compare 1.c3 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.d3 e5 4.dxe4 Nf6 (or Nf6 4.dxe4 e5) with the KGD. At one hand the early exchange fxe4 rules out some options, at the other hand the pawn on c3 is not very useful.
What about 1.c3 e6 intending 2...f5 ?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #4 - 01/20/05 at 06:46:32
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I would think of it more as a From's gamibt with the extra move ...c6 opening up another diagonal for the queen (1.f4 e5 with Black already having played ...c6).  I don't think, however, that we really proved an advantage for White after 1.c3 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.d3 e5! although play was interesting.
  
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MNb
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #3 - 01/20/05 at 05:35:52
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I am curious to that analysis, but my first impression is that White is playing a bad version of the Staunton Gambit. I mean, whoever thinks 1.d4 e6 2.c3 f5 3.e4 dangerous for Black?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #2 - 01/19/05 at 21:26:57
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I remember a long time ago in the "Myer's Openings Bulletin" it was suggested that after 1.c3 f5, White might do well with 2.e4!?.  I remember I contributed to this analysis but if you can get a hold of it you might want to look at it anyway.  I recall GM Rogers had tried 1.c3 and 2.e4 but preferred another method against 1...f5.  I'll try and look this up.
  
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MNb
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Re: Saragossa
Reply #1 - 01/19/05 at 20:58:28
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1.c3 is a superfluous move after f5! followed by the Iljin-Zjenevsky setup, which in this case is stronger than the Leningrad.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Saragossa
01/19/05 at 15:27:29
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For much too long, I had a deep infatuation with 1 c3 (I finally managed to kick the habit about ten or twelve years ago).  I have very few of my games recorded from that period, but I recall that I deliberately avoided transposing into the Colle, often finding myself in problematic reversed Old Indians and Pircs.  Does 1 c3 have any virtues outside of being a (rather useless) transpositional tool?  Does anyone play it?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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