Thanks for this, Smyslov_Fan. Yes, transposition to the KID is usually recommended. Still, Tiger's ideas might prove interesting. And there are also some other possibilities which I attempt to summarise earlier in this thread: ...c5 on move 3 or 4 (which I haven't seen discussed in any book, though that doesn't mean it isn't), and (using a ...g6/ ...d6 move order) 3 ...e5, after which 4 de is much less impressive. If there's a big problem with either of these no one has yet shown it!

Which is this 'more traditional King's Indian line', Smyslov_Fan? Do you mean transposition to the King's Indian itself, or another non-KID line? Speelman & McDonald seem to consider all the non-KID lines good for White (though they say nothing about 3 ...c5 or 4 ...c5) -- I'd be interested to know what other books say.

Some suggestions by Tiger Hillarp Persson in his new book on the Modern Defence might cause opinion on the Averbakh to be revised. Tiger suggests that 4 …e5 isn’t bad.  On 5 Nge2 he mentions 5 …c5!? and 5 …Nc6!?, while against 5 d5 he recommends the main line 5 …f5 6 ef gf.

Against 5 Nf3 he prefers 5 …Nc6!?, disliking 5 …ed 6 Nd4 Nc6 7 Be3 Nge7, because of 7 h4!?. (NCO considers this OK, preferring 7 Be2.) Then after 6 d5 Nce7 7 Be2 he says 7 …f5 8 ef Nf5! is OK. The main line here, 6 Bg5 f6 7 Be3 Nh6 8 de de 9 Qd8 Kd8, is good for White according to NCO, but Tiger analyses 10 0-0-0 Bd7 11 h3 Nf7 as being reasonable for Black, while mentioning also Susan Polgar’s 11 …f5!? (which looks interesting to me). He also says that 6 Bg5 Qd7 7 Be3! Nh6 8 d5 Nd8 is a bit better for White. I notice, however, that 7 …ed 8 Nd4 Nge7 has successfully been played here, the idea presumably being that, with the Queen on d7, after 9 h4 f5, 10 h5? is not possible because of 10 …f4. Is there anything wrong with this plan?

The critical line after 4 …e5, of course, is usually thought to be 5 de de 6 Qd8 Kd8 7 f4. Here Tiger suggests 7 …Be6 8 Nf3 Nc6!?, meeting 9 fe with 9 …h6!?. This might not set the world alight, but it’s looking reasonable to me so far. Any thoughts?

Hi Photophore

Thanks for your reply. I'm afraid my only experience of these lines was as long ago as Keene & Botterill's book! -- and while I did quite well with them, that was just as an average club player. There's quite a bit of up-to-date coverage of these lines on ChessPub. Also Speelman & MacDonald cover most of them quite thoroughly, and the evidence they present suggests that although they're tricky they're not wholly reliable -- hence my efforts to deviate with ...c5 or ...e5 plans. Maybe a stronger practical player than I am could offer some useful insights here ...

All best,
Michael

Eight months ago I proposed the following two ideas (see at bottom of post*) in response to 1 d4 g6 2 c4 Bg7 3 e4, but I only got one reply. The main idea (if there is one!) of my 'systems' is to steer towards a reasonable Franco-Benoni, but there are obviously lots of transpositional possibilities. Have you or anyone else got any thoughts?

Another way of avoiding a KID is 1 d4 g6 2 c4 d6, meeting 3 e4 with 3 ...e5!?, with an Old Indian set-up. The ending after 4 de seems reasonable for Black. White can try to transpose to an Averbakh with 4 d5 Bg7 5 Nc3 Nd7, when he might have some dangerous tries, e.g. 6 g4!?, but Black might have other options, e.g. 4 ...a5, delaying ...Bg7 for the time being. Azmaiparashvili, Speelman and others seem to have done OK with this?


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* SYSTEM ONE: 3 ...d6 4 Nc3 c5!?:   
   
I haven't closely looked at 5 Be3 Nf6!? or ... Qa5!?, but I assume this isn't critical; meanwhile 5 Nge2 cd (there are other moves!) transposes to 5 Nf3 cd. I also assume that 5 dc dc (5 ...Bc3 may be interesting?) 6 Qd8 Kd8 is OK for Black. That leaves 5 Nf3 and 5 d5 as the most critical tries. Against 5 Nf3, Black has either (1) 5 ...cd 6 Nd4 Nc6 or ...Nf6, both of which should end up as a Maroczy Bind Accelerated Dragon, or (2) 5 ...Nc6 6 d5 Nd4 7 Nd4 cd, transposing to the line 3 c4 d6 4 Nc3 Nc6 5 d5 Nd4 6 Nge2?! (6 Be3!) c5 7 Nd4 cd, which according to Nigel Davies is unclear after 8 Nb5 Qb6 9 c5 dc! 10 Bf4 Kf8. If neither of these two options appeals, Black can also try Topalev's 5 ...Qa5!?. Against 5 d5, since 5 ...Nf6 is not necessarily either a KID or even good, I'm intending 5 ...e6. Now White has three main tries (in addition to 6 de!?, after which all three responses have been seen!). After (1) 6 Nf3, NCO (p. 69, n. 33) gives 6 ...Ne7 7 Be2 0-0 8 0-0 a6 (8 ...e5!? may be interesting too) 9 a4 ed 10 cd without an assessment (and as transposing to a position it seems not to mention!), while also possible here is 7 Bd3 0-0 8 0-0 a6 or ...e5. Alternatively there's (2) 6 Bd3 ed! (6 ...Ne7?! 7 h4! ed 8 cd! is a bit better for White while 6 ...Nf6?! 7 Nf3 leads to KID lines [NCO p. 523] where White can obtain a bind if Black takes on d5 and White replies with exd5!, or a small edge if he doesn't) 7 ed!? (7 cd Nf6! is a Benoni) Ne7!? 8 Nf3 (8 Nge2!?) 0-0 9 0-0 Nd7!? (9 ...Bg4!? and 9 ...h6!? have also been seen) intending ...Ne5 with a reasonable position. Finally, on (3) 6 f4, 6 ...Nf6 7 Nf3 0-0 (or 7...ed first) is a Four Pawns Attack, but Black can also try 6 ...Ne7!?, or 6 ...ed!? 7 cd and now 7 ...Ne7 (7 ...Nf6?! 8 Bb5! being a Taimanov Benoni).   
   
   
SYSTEM TWO: 3 ...c5!?:   
   
I assume (rightly or wrongly!) that 4 Be3, 4 Ne2 and 4 dc aren't critical. This leaves 4 Nf3 and 4 d5. Against the first, Black has 4 ...d6, when 5 Nc3 transposes to 5 Nf3 in System One, while if this doesn't appeal he can try Rausis's 4 ...cd 5 Nd4 Qb6!? 6 Nb3 d6!, which according to NCO (p. 63, n. 50) is OK. After 4 d5, 4 ...d6!? (4 ...e6 seems sound too but I can't see any advantages to this move order) will probably transpose into System One lines whether White plays 5 Nc3, 5 Nf3, 5 Bd3 or 5 f4 if Black responds to each of them with 5 ...e6, but there are also a few independent possibilities that might be interesting: (1) 5 Bd3 e5!?; (2) 5 f4 e5!?; and (3) 5 f4 Nf6 6 Nc3 0-0 7 Nf3 e5!? (7 ...e6 8 Be2 ed 9 cd is a Benoni).