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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky (Read 6759 times)
gurb5000
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One of the bad thinRe: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #16 - 08/12/05 at 20:44:43
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One of the bad things about the Boden for me was how rarely I actually got to play it in rated game.  When faced with it, most of my opponents choose to go into the Two Nights rather than take the pawn.  I don't know if this is because they feared the opening or because they thought white was trying to transpose into a reverse Petroff where white has an extra tempo.  Ironically I think you would probably have more likelihood of having it accepted as a response to the Petroff.  There your opponent will know that you are not playing a normal move and might be more prone to try and punish you by grabbing the pawn.

I actually started playing the Boden as a response to the Petroff and then realized that I could get to the position more often from the Bishop's opening.  Of course then I had no idea that no one would actually have the guts to actually grab the pawn.  Having said that, I don't think I would grab the pawn either - even if the Boden is not completely sound, it is still very dangerous.
  
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urusov
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #15 - 08/12/05 at 14:02:54
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As I noted in another thread, I recently posted a Urusov bibliography that might be of interest:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2005/08/urusoff-urusov-gambit-b...

I strongly recommend Lane's recent book "The Bishop's Opening Explained" as well as the "Danish Dynamite."  Both are excellent.  But for most club players, the materials on the web are probably more than sufficient.

I have never played the Boden Kieseritsky, but I had a friend when I was younger who kicked butt with it in 5-minute all the time.  It gives White quite the bind and it is hard for Black to find a plan.  The same is true of the so-called Koltanowski Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.O-O!? Nf6 5.d4!? Bxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.f4 followed often by 8.c3 with excellent attacking prospects for the pawn (discussed by Pete Tamburro online and by Chris Baker in "A Startling Opening Repertoire") and quite a bind.

As someone once said, "everything is playable below master level."
  
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gurb5000
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #14 - 08/07/05 at 00:11:19
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As someone who has played both over the years, I am going to have to agree with what almost everyone else has been saying.  The Urusoff is probably the better pick, particularly if you are happy with the lines in the Two Knights defence where white has played 4.d4.  In those lines I have played the suspect 5.Ng5 in a number of games.   After 5...d5 6.exd5, no one has ever played the correct 6...Qe7+ against me and any other move there seems to lead to a fun position for white.  I don't think I have ever lost any of them.

Even with 6..Qe7+ white can play 7.Kf1 and still have some hope of playing for a win although I think the most realistic outcome would be a draw.  This makes it an outstanding option against higher rated players who's only real chance of any hope of a win would be to grind you down in a long bitter end game.
  
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bckm
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #13 - 05/15/05 at 20:09:22
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I haven't (and probably won't) read the section on the Boden (because the Urusov and the d3-Bishop's opening stuff is all I want, or have the time to, study), but Lane's assessment of the Urusov hews pretty much to what is probably everyone's experience who plays the Urusov: "The reason that this opening is not always seen in the books is that it tends to transpose into the Two Knights...".  Of the Boden, his comments: "White has an edge but with careful play, Black should be able to equalize in this opening."  AARGH!  How lame is THAT?  That could pretty much apply to just about ALL openings (except, perhaps, for the Grob or the Fred... Wink)

All in all, Lane's new book seems to be geared a little towards mid-to-lower class amateurs.  It's big advantage is that it has a lot of explanatory text; it's shortfall is that it somewhat "dumbs down" the analysis to reach what is probably the target audience.  I think it's a good book, all told, and I highly recommend it to anyone under, say, 2000 or 2200.  Those above would probably prefer "Danish Dynamite", which has more analysis.
  
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #12 - 04/19/05 at 09:23:11
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anyone know what Lanes thoughts on these gambits are in his updated work on the Bishops Opening?
  
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MNb
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #11 - 02/08/05 at 15:59:22
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For those, who are not convinced yet:

Schuck,S - Autenrieth,M (2270)
Oberliga Nord W 9596 Germany, 1996
1.e4 e5 2.Pf3 Pf6 3.Lc4 Pxe4 4.Pc3 Pxc3 5.dxc3 f6 6.Ph4 g6 7.f4 De7 8.f5 Dg7 9.fxg6 hxg6 10.Dg4 Kd8 11.Dg3 g5 12.Pf5 Dh7 13.0-0 d6 14.Ld3 Dh5 15.Pe3 Le7 16.Ld2 Dh4 17.Dxh4 Txh4 18.Lf5 Lxf5 19.Pxf5 Th7 20.c4 Pd7 21.Le3 Pf8 22.Tf2 Pe6 23.g3 Pg7 24.Pxe7 Kxe7 25.Taf1 Pe8 26.c3 Ke6 27.Td1 b6 28.a4 a6 29.a5 bxa5 30.Ta1 g4 31.Txa5 f5 32.b4 Tf7 33.b5 Pf6 34.bxa6 Pe4 35.Tb2 f4 36.gxf4 exf4 37.Lxf4 Txf4 38.a7 Tff8 39.Te2 Tf4 40.Tb2 Tff8 41.Te2 Tf4 ˝-˝
Creative play by White to save the draw, but 35...c5 followed by 36...Rfa7 and Ne4-.......-b8 would have won.

In Krnjovsek  - Pavasovic 15.Bxb7 is not really an improvement, asguidedbyvoices already stated, because of Be4! 16.Bxa8 Bxa8 17.Rxf6 Nd7
a) 18.Bxg5 Kc8 19.Rff1 Bc5+ 20.Kh1 Rg8 21.Rad1 and now both Bc6 and Be7 are clearly better for Black.
b) 18.Rf1 Bc5+ 19.Kh1 g4 20.Bg5+ Kc8 21.Rad1 Qh3!

I really like playing gambits, but the Boden-Kieseritzky Gambit does not seem to work.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #10 - 02/08/05 at 07:14:21
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yes mnb, the idea of an early d5 in that line seems to be good for black, of course white should have taken on b7 rather than saccing the exchange but the position is still better for black. i never claimed Dadian-Kolisch was a masterpiece, merely indicative of whites possibilities, perhaps i should have added "if Black doesnt defend very well"
  
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MNb
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #9 - 02/07/05 at 22:11:26
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1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4 4.Nc3 Nxc3 5.dxc3 f6 6.o-o can be met with g6 7.Re1 d6 like in Jonkman-Reinderman, Wijk aan Zee 1996. A very amusing game is

Röder,H - Hartl,A
Bayern-chB Furth, 1999
1.e4 e5 2.Pf3 Pf6 3.Lc4 Pxe4 4.Pc3 Pxc3 5.dxc3 f6 6.0–0 g6 7.Te1 d6 8.Pxe5 fxe5 9.Txe5+ Le7? 10.Te2 Pc6 11.Dd5 Dd7? 12.Lg5 Kd8 13.Tae1 Te8 14.Lb5 1–0

Alas 9...dxe5 10.Lf7+ Kxf7 11.Dxd8 Pc6 12.Dxc7+ Kg8-+ spoils the fun.

Now 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.o-o Nxe4 (Bc5 5.b4!?) 5.Nc3 remains: Nxc3 6.dxc3 f6 7.Nh4 g6 8.f4 Qe7 9.b4 d6 10.fxe5 (10.f5 Qg7 is typical for Black's plan) dxe5 (Nxe5 11.Bb5+ c6 or 11.Re1 Bg4 and White does not have much) 11.Qe2 Bg7 (f5) 12.Be3 Bd7? (f5) Prince Dadian-Kolisch,1867, and the level of the game is characterized by White missing 13.Bc5 Qd8 14.Rad1 with decent compensation. A little further Black should have played 14...Na5, 16...cxb6, White could have played 18.Ba6 (more convincing than 18.Rxb7) and Black finally 18...Rde8. The whole game resembles very much to a helpmate.

Maybe "highly dubious" is even too moderate?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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MNb
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #8 - 02/07/05 at 21:28:22
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Krnjovsek,A (2075) - Pavasovic,D (2295) [C42]
SLO-chJ, 1993

1.e4 e5 2.Pf3 Pf6 3.Lc4 Pxe4 4.Pc3 Pxc3 5.dxc3 f6 6.Ph4 g6 7.f4 De7 8.f5 Dg7 9.fxg6 hxg6 10.Dg4
If White should be slightly better, than he has to improve on:

Kd8 11.Dg3 g5 12.Pf5 Dh7 13.0-0 d5 14.Lxd5 Lxf5 15.Txf5 Dxf5 16.Lxb7 Ld6 17.Df2 Dxf2+ 18.Kxf2 c6 19.Lxa8 Kc7 20.Le3 Pd7 21.Lxc6 Kxc6 22.Lxa7 Lc5+ 23.Lxc5 Pxc5 24.h3 Pa4 25.b3 Pxc3 26.Ke3 Kc5 27.Kd3 Pd5 28.Ke4 Th4+ 29.Kf3 Td4 30.a4 e4+ 31.Ke2 Pf4+ 32.Kf2 Td2+ 33.Kf1 Pxg2 34.c3 e3 0-1

That Dadian-Kolisch game is mainly sparkling, because Black voluntarily castles to the only wing White can build an attack yet.... I will take a look at it.

  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #7 - 02/07/05 at 14:00:22
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just noticed the Dadian-Kolisch game above is missing the moves 13a4 0-0-0 btw Smiley
  
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #6 - 02/07/05 at 13:08:58
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The Urusov is probably objectively stronger than the Boden-Kieseritsky. Karpov lost to the Urusov as a youngster, I doubt any ex world champs have lost to the Boden  Tongue. Still I have to admit to having a soft spot for the Boden. Usually people who play Nxe4 are hoping to drag White into the mire of the Frankenstein-Dracula  variation, having never bothered to learn the tactical nuances associated with this particular line I find the Boden a useful way of avoiding it and find Black players less well prepared for it. In contrast with Mnb I actually dont mind the main line so much, 1e4 e5 2Nc3 Nf6 3Bc4 Nxe4 4Nc3 Nxc3 5dc f6 60-0 (Nh4 doesnt necessarily transpose btw since white can delay castling eg 6..g6 7f4 Qe7 8f5 Qg7 9fg hg 10Qg4 and it seems to me like white has comp for his pawn minus and if anything might be slightly better) Nc6 7Nh4 g6 8f4 Qe7 9b4 d6 10fe de 11Qe2 Bg7 12Be3 Bd7 14b5 Nb8 15b6 ab 16a5 ba 17Rfb1 Nc6 18Rxb7!! Kxb7 19Ba6+ Ka8 20Bb7+ Kxb7 21Qb5+ Kc8 22Qa6+ Kb8 23Rxa5 Nxa5 24Qa7+ Kc8 25Qa8 mate was Prince Dadian-Kolisch way back in 1867. A sparkling attacking game by white and indicative of the possibilities of this gambit. I think "highly dubious" is a somewhat harsh assessment of the Boden-Kieseritsky. The biggest problem with the Boden I think is when Black returns the pawn straight away rather than trying to hang onto it. This can result in rather sterile equality for instance 4...Nc6 50-0 Nxc3 6dc Be7 7Qd5 0-0 as mentioned by Mnb above (although I must say the only time I had this position as white in a tournament game I won in 14 moves!) or perhaps the best response to the Boden if you don't want to have to learn much theory 4...Nxc3 5dxc3 c6 6Nxe5 d5 70-0 Bd6 which seems to give black equality.
  
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #5 - 02/06/05 at 20:28:08
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I would not call buying Danish Dynamite wasting money; the Goeller site is very prejudiced towards White. Harding commented on it in his column The Kibitzer some years ago.
If Black knows his stuff, he has reasonable chances for an advantage after 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Ng5?! (Heyken/Fette) d5 6.exd5 Qe7+!
Both 5.e5 and 5.o-o are simply better.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #4 - 02/06/05 at 10:48:45
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thanks for the link. i haven't actually purchased any books in years though. paper is so yesterday's news. i have to say though, it does have its advantages. for instance, joel benjamin is currently helping to balance my pool table.
  
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #3 - 02/06/05 at 10:39:15
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Instead of wasting all your money on books, you could just use this site : http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/ which has more information on the urusov then you will ever need.
It also gives detailed analysis on the perreux variation in the two knights defence for if black avoids the urusov.
Black can equalise against the perreux if he knows a bit of theory but as nobody does it's a good surprise weapon.
  
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Re: Urusov v. Boden Kieseritsky
Reply #2 - 02/06/05 at 09:35:12
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thanks, mnb. for some reason the pages to the boden were missing from my bishop's opening book. i guess i must have been in a real bind for some paper at some point. sorry gary lane!
  
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