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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT (Read 51483 times)
Gambit
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #96 - 09/16/07 at 23:07:54
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MNb wrote on 09/16/07 at 20:54:15:
Gambit wrote on 09/16/07 at 04:58:16:

1 f4 h6 2 Nf3 g5 3 fxg5 4 hxg5 d5  5 d4 Qd6  6 e4 dxe4 7 Bc4

7...Rxh2!? is one line that I looked at. Black sacrifices a piece for an attack on the White King. Of course, he does not have to play this wild sacrifice, but let's analyze further:

8 Bxf7+ Kd8  9 Rxh2 Qxh2  I will post lines without the speculative 7...Rxh2!? next time. However, it looks like 7...Rxh2!? is almost forced.


Don't forget to look at 10.Be3 and 10.Qe2 in that case. We are not playing checkers, so 10.Bxg8 is not forced.




I looked at both of these lines, and quite frankly, Black does OK in both.

10 Be3 Qg1+  11 Kd2 Qxg2+  12  Kc1 Nf6 =/=+
10 Qe2 Qg1+  11 Qf1 (11 Ke2? Qxd4!) 12 Kf1 Nf6 13 Nc3 Bf5 =/unclear
  
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MNb
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #95 - 09/16/07 at 20:54:15
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Gambit wrote on 09/16/07 at 04:58:16:

1 f4 h6 2 Nf3 g5 3 fxg5 4 hxg5 d5  5 d4 Qd6  6 e4 dxe4 7 Bc4

7...Rxh2!? is one line that I looked at. Black sacrifices a piece for an attack on the White King. Of course, he does not have to play this wild sacrifice, but let's analyze further:

8 Bxf7+ Kd8  9 Rxh2 Qxh2  I will post lines without the speculative 7...Rxh2!? next time. However, it looks like 7...Rxh2!? is almost forced.


Don't forget to look at 10.Be3 and 10.Qe2 in that case. We are not playing checkers, so 10.Bxg8 is not forced.
  
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #94 - 09/16/07 at 11:09:53
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Apologies all, I'd missed Lev's suggested 7...Qg6 (instead of 7...Qe6). 

However, 8.Nbc3 Bf5 9.Qf3 seems to solve most of white's problems - the pressure will not be enough, and white should also be able to castle relatively soon. 9...Nc6 10.Bb5! O-O-O 11.Bxc6! bxc6 12.O-O looks fine to me - with proper defence black's open files won't be sufficient, and black's king could find itself in bother as well. Still, the positions are original and quite fun, I could deal with playing something like this as black.
  
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #93 - 09/16/07 at 11:05:51
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Firstly, in the messy line with 7.Bc4 Rxh2 8.Bxf7+ Kd8 9.Rxh2?! Qxh2 10.Bxg8??, all that analysis is unnecessary as 10...Qg1+ decides the game quickly: 11.Kd2 e3+ 12.Ke2 Qf2+ 13.Kd3 Bf5+ 14.Kc3 e2 and white can resign.

7.Nxe4, therefore, should be preferred. 7...Qe6! 8.Nbd2! (now ...f5 can be met with Bc4) and I can't find anything for black to justify his pawn investment - I tried to make 8...Rh4 work but 9.Qe2 and black is a pawn down with the worse development.

However, Rybka has come up with an interesting alternative to all this with the wacky 7.Na3!? , the point being Nc4 or Nb5 to harass the black queen (and 7...Rxh2? 8.Nxe4! is good) - it seems to like the equally insane 7...Nh6 as a response, but I won't spend any time looking at this since 7.Nxe4 gives white an advantage in the variations that I can find...
  
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #92 - 09/16/07 at 04:58:16
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MNb wrote on 09/16/07 at 03:29:22:
And White has the pleasant choice between 7.Nxe4 at once and 7.Bc4 first.


All is not what it seems, MNb. It actual gets very tactical and hairy in here.
Below are some sample lines that took me some twenty minutes to analyze:

1 f4 h6 2 Nf3 g5 3 fxg5 4 hxg5 d5  5 d4 Qd6  6 e4 dxe4 7 Bc4

7...Rxh2!? is one line that I looked at. Black sacrifices a piece for an attack on the White King. Of course, he does not have to play this wild sacrifice, but let's analyze further:

8 Bxf7+ Kd8  9 Rxh2 Qh2  10 Bxg8 Qh1+  11 Kd2 Qxg2+  12 Kc3 Qg3+  13 Kc4
b5+ 14 Kb4 (14 Kc3 e6+  15 Kb5 Ba6+) a5+  15 Kxb5 Bd7+ 16 Kc4 Ra6

Instead of 13...b5?! a better try is 13...Bg4! 14 Qf1 Nd7  15 Bf4 Nb6+  16 Kb5 Bd7+  17 Ka5 Nc4+!  18 Bxc4  (18 Kb4 e5+! 19 Kxc4 ef4 20 Ne6+ Ke7! winning a piece) b6+  19 Ka6  Bc8+  20 Kb5  Bd7+  21 Ka6  Bc8+
with a draw. If the King moves anywhere else than b5, he gets mated.

This stuff reminds me of the Latvian Gambit, where the King takes a walk.

7 Nxe4 Qg6  8 Nc3 Bf5 with Benko-type pressure on the g- and h-files. White cannot develop the Bf1, whilst Black develops the Bc8 and Castles Queenside.
I think Black is OK here.

I will post lines without the speculative 7...Rxh2!? next time. However, it looks like 7...Rxh2!? is almost forced.
  
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #91 - 09/16/07 at 03:29:22
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And White has the pleasant choice between 7.Nxe4 at once and 7.Bc4 first.
  
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #90 - 09/15/07 at 23:19:32
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CraigEvans wrote on 09/08/07 at 20:10:30:
This discussion seems to have just avioded looking at the critical position after 1.f4 h6 2.Nf3 g5 3.fxg5 hxg5 4.Nxg5 d5 5.d4 Qd6. Though I've been away for a while, and reading through the Sbboh-related stuff amused me greatly, seems like a bit of discussion on this might be worthwhile. 6.e4 and I still prefer white here - how does black continue?


Seems to me that Black should play 6...dxe4
  
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #89 - 09/08/07 at 21:26:50
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Ask, dear friend, and ye shall receive.  Smiley

(I was actually debating whether "Recycle Bin" was the right section, but I thought I'd deprive the world of some much-needed humour if I'd gone down that route)
  
"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #88 - 09/08/07 at 20:38:22
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Now we have you back (which makes me happy), dear moderator, don't you think it a good idea to transfer this thread to the right section?
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #87 - 09/08/07 at 20:10:30
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This discussion seems to have just avioded looking at the critical position after 1.f4 h6 2.Nf3 g5 3.fxg5 hxg5 4.Nxg5 d5 5.d4 Qd6. Though I've been away for a while, and reading through the Sbboh-related stuff amused me greatly, seems like a bit of discussion on this might be worthwhile. 6.e4 and I still prefer white here - how does black continue?
  
"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #86 - 06/12/07 at 20:37:00
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Sacapawn wrote on 06/12/07 at 19:18:51:
About the game Klicker-Lukas:

The first 7 moves from both sides looks reasonable (with the exception of 1.-,h6 of course Smiley), but White's next moves are not very impressive. 

8.Ne5 would have been better. Compared to the Scandinavian, White has the additional idea of g4 and f5 at some moment, for example after the natural but weak reply 8.-,Nf6:  9.g4 Bh7 10.f5 exf5?! 11.Bc4 Bg8 12.Qe2 Be7 13.gxf5 with an overwhelming position. 

Or 8.-,Bd6 9.g4 Bh7 10.Bc4 Nf6 11.Qe2 and Black must do something against the threat Nxf7


Good points.  It seems to me that Black's move order here was inaccurate.  I think 6...c6 soon followed by ...Nd7 offers Black better chances.  If Black cannot adequately counter the Ne5+g4 plan, his position is simply inferior.
  
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #85 - 06/12/07 at 19:18:51
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About the game Klicker-Lukas:

The first 7 moves from both sides looks reasonable (with the exception of 1.-,h6 of course Smiley), but White's next moves are not very impressive. 

8.Ne5 would have been better. Compared to the Scandinavian, White has the additional idea of g4 and f5 at some moment, for example after the natural but weak reply 8.-,Nf6:  9.g4 Bh7 10.f5 exf5?! 11.Bc4 Bg8 12.Qe2 Be7 13.gxf5 with an overwhelming position. 

Or 8.-,Bd6 9.g4 Bh7 10.Bc4 Nf6 11.Qe2 and Black must do something against the threat Nxf7
  
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #84 - 06/12/07 at 13:36:05
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Bonsai wrote on 06/11/07 at 19:51:25:
Markovich wrote on 06/11/07 at 15:42:16:
But again, if 2...d5 is supposed to be fully adequate for Black having first played 1...h6, then surely 1. f4 d5! is better still, not committing oneself to the almost-timewasting 1...h6.

Well, I suppose white has committed himself to a Stonewall with f4+d4 when black still has all the options. However I completely agree that a lot of other waiting moves just have to be better than 1...h6.

Another idea for white could be 1.f4 h6 2.c4 (directed against d5 and planning to get a big centre with 3.e4), e.g. 1.f4 h6 2.c4 g5 3.e4 gxf4 4.d4 Bg7 5.Nf3.


White has not committed himself to a Stonewall, since his c-pawn can go to c4.  If I am not mistaken, Kmoch in Pawn Power in Chess called the formation with c4, d4, e3 and f4 the "English Wall," and discussed it at some length.

As well as 2. d3 and 2. d4, I like your 2. c4.  2...c5  3. Nc3 followed by e4 must be better for White than this same idea without the insertion of 1. f4 h6.  Also 2. c4 c5  3. d4 cxd4  4. Nf3.  But after 2...e6 or 2...c6, which pawn are you going to push, e- or d-?
  
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #83 - 06/12/07 at 08:56:38
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Fritz Klicker is a funny name to have in chess.   Smiley  I looked him up in the player database and he is a 71-year-old 2020 elo player.  Couldn't find Hubertus.  I really haven't looked at the game to comment on the quality.
 
One problem here is that you won't find many games by strong players in these lines.  The main source material lies in comparisons with the associated Scandinavian lines.

Addendum:  Looking briefly at the game, it seems to me that White did not play the opening very well.  I actually think Black came out better in the opening, but made some dubious decisions later on.

Well, the more I look it, there are errors for Black early on.  (13...Qb6! -/+ is significant improvement over 13...Bxb4?!.)  However, I am not that impressed by White's opening.  Black's opening setup looks like a good idea that was wrongly executed.  The quality of the play does not look very high.  I am guessing White was the stronger player.
  
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Re: HOBBS-ZILBERMINTS GAMBIT
Reply #82 - 06/12/07 at 08:45:03
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MNb wrote on 06/11/07 at 21:52:48:

Iirc it was 1.e4 d6 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 Qxd5 (not Nf6), so I guess it also has to be 1.f4 h6 2.e4 d5 3.exd5 Qxd5.

The only game I found, gave white a very decent position from the opening:
[Event "Saarlouis op 7th"]
[Site "Saarlouis"]
[Date "2004.05.19"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Klicker,Fritz"]
[Black "Lukas,Hubertus"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A02"]
1.f4 h6 2.e4 d5 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.Nc3 Qa5 5.Nf3 Bf5 6.d4 e6 7.Bd2 c6 8.Be2 Qc7 
9.0-0 Ne7 10.Rc1 Nd7 11.b4 Ng6 12.Ne5 Ngxe5 13.fxe5 Bxb4 14.Qe1 Ba3 15.Ra1 Bxc2 16.Qg3 Bb2 17.Rae1 Bg6 18.Bd3 Bxd3 19.Qxd3 Bxc3 20.Bxc3 0-0-0 21.Rxf7 g5 22.Qc4 Rhf8 23.Qxe6 Rxf7 24.Qxf7 Nb6 25.Qf5+ Kb8 26.Bb4 Rxd4 27.Bd6 Rxd6 28.exd6 Qxd6 29.Re8+ Kc7 30.Qf7+ Nd7 31.h3 Qd4+ 32.Qf2 Qxf2+ 33.Kxf2 b5 34.Rh8 a5 35.Ke3 a4 36.Rxh6 a3 37.Kd2 c5 38.Rg6 b4 39.Kc2 Ne5 40.Rxg5 Kd6 41.h4 c4 42.h5 Nd3 43.h6 b3+ 44.axb3 Nb4+ 45.Kc3 a2 46.Ra5 cxb3 47.Kxb3 Nc6 48.Rxa2 Ne5 49.h7  1-0

  
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