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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble??? (Read 9140 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #7 - 05/19/05 at 04:48:37
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Thoughts/questions:

@ basqueknight -- Did Kasparov say this only of the Pirc, or of the Modern as well?

@ Inn2 -- Why does a Modern player need to play the KID? What is wrong with (1) 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 c4 c5; (2) 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 c4 d6 4 Nc3 c5; (3) 1 e4 g6 2 d4 d6 3 c4 e5? (These possibilities, the subect of other posts of mine, are rarely even mentioned in discussions of 3 c4, but if there is anything wrong with them, it certainly isn't obvious.)

@ alumbrado -- In feeling that the Modern move-order doesn't help, which line(s) for Black do you consider unreliable (or just don't fancy), I wonder: the various 'Pirc substitutes' (e.g. (1) 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 a6 5 Nf3 Nd7, (2) 4 ...Nd7 5 Nf3 c5, (3) 3 Nc3 a6 4 f4 b5); the 'Classical Modern' with 3 Nc3 d6 4 Nf3 a6 5 Be2 b5, or with 4 ...c6; or other systems such as 4 Be3? (I'm not meaning to dispute your experience, I'm just interested.)
  
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basqueknight
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #6 - 05/18/05 at 23:26:36
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Kasparov says that it is a loss for black but not all of us will be playing Kasparov any time soon. I think the posistions that arise are fun and unique and even some of the best attackers have played the pirc or modern such a Tal and Spassky. So i dont think its terrible Iron Tigran Petrosian also played it so maybe its not so bad but then again that was back in the day.

If you give Morozevich enough time he will probley revive it. After all he brought some lines in the CAro-Kann and French that were "Bad" back into play and showed the chess world that you can play just about any thing if you put enough study into it.

Part of the reason people crush a certain opening is because the train them selves to crush it. In the french if they let me play Alekhines Gambit in the classical I will more than likely kill. Why? Is it because it is so good? No not at all. I just know the posistions better than some. Its not seen as much any more. The best opening choice is the one that makes your opponents think the most. The pirc is not as common any more so may be a good weapon even in the 2500 crowd which means that below that it should be fine as well.
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #5 - 02/21/05 at 08:36:41
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I have yet to be convinced that the Modern move-order solves anything.
  

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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #4 - 02/21/05 at 07:38:32
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Quote:
well, thx alumbrado for this insightful survey!!!
Ok, I see there are many troublesome lines in the Pirc, but using the Modern move-order is supposed to solve some of these problems... Am I wrong???


You definitely need the KID in your repertoire though. I have grave doubts as to whether independent Modern lines against 1. d4 work. The only truly different line is the Averbakh 4... Nc6, but I refer to Palliser's excellent antidote with 5. Be3 and 7. c5!.
  
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #3 - 02/21/05 at 07:29:34
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I tried the pirc ages ago because I wanted something untheoretical.

But lo and behold. There is more pirc theory to study than the sicilian!  Shocked

You need to know more theory to *survive* the first 15-20 moves of the pirc, than in the sicilian.

One factor that was especially unpleasant, was that White could make inaccurate/untheoretical moves, yet very often still retaining an advantage.  Angry Compare this to the sicilian, or french (or any other mainstream opening!), where one inaccuracy by White usually lets the alert Black player equalise.

My favourite White setup is the classical system recommended in Nigel Davies' Dynamic Reti book. Only two results are possible  Grin
  
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krugman
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #2 - 02/21/05 at 07:17:31
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well, thx alumbrado for this insightful survey!!!
Ok, I see there are many troublesome lines in the Pirc, but using the Modern move-order is supposed to solve some of these problems... Am I wrong???
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #1 - 02/21/05 at 06:39:14
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There are problems in several lines:

1. First and foremost, the Austrian is dangerous - very dangerous:

(a) The lines with 5...0-0 6.Bd3 are not looking too rosy (after either 6...Na6 or 6...Nc6), but in any case, White has 6.Be3(!) which is very difficult to counter.  The best-regarded response is 6...b6, which I think, says it all.

(b) I think 5...c5 is best, but there are plenty of choices for White there, to, if he wants to play for a win, and there is also the semi-forced draw in the 6.Bb5† line, which Black avoids at his peril in my view.  I have had one booked-up - and much lower-rated - opponent do this to me.  MNb even thinks that 6.d5 is good for White, although I think that is manageable for Black.

2. 4.Bg5!? is nasty, too, although I don't mind that so much.

3. 4.Be3 is tricky, but OK.  For what it's worth, I think Black ought to hold off on ...b5 for a while (probably until White has played 0-0-0) and go for 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7!? with either ...Qa5 or ...Qc7 to come.

4. The real bugger from Black's point of view is that there are pesky little quiet lines such as 4.g3 which require Black to be very patient and accurate to get equality - not like, say, the French Exchange where he has it immediately.

Strong players can use these to get a nagging edge while weaker ones can use it to get a solid game and make it incredibly difficult to break them down if you are playing for a win.  I am thinking particularly of lines where dxe5 dxe5 Qxd8 happens - there are spectacularly few winning chances for black in these positions, compared even to the Exchange KID, where at least White is committed to c2-c4, so there is a hole on d4.  the best black can hope for is to weather White's early initiative and then see what is left for him after that.

I have won one or two games like this but I have had to work really hard for it - satisfying to be sure when it happens - but more often than not I end up conceding a draw - and on occasions have been happy to do that.

In summary then, against strong opposition, there is a real risk that black will get mashed up after just one inaccuracy in some of the sharper lines, or just ground down in one of the quiet lines (OK this can happen in pretty much any opening I guess) - but the problem is that I don't even think it is a good weapon against weaker players any more  Undecided
  

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krugman
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Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
02/21/05 at 05:07:09
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Hi to all!

reading other posts in the forum, seeing that some pirc players are considering giving up their pet defense, I was wondering whether it is really in trouble, and it what lines precisely...Moreover, strong players like Grischuk and Korotylev are still willing to play it...Thus, where is the truth????
  
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