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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble??? (Read 8807 times)
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #22 - 08/03/05 at 07:08:59
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"I can appreciate how it might not be to TN's tastes"
TopNotch's axioma: the objective truth equals his taste. So he considers every opening he does not like unplayable.  Grin
  

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alumbrado
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #21 - 08/03/05 at 03:44:03
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Well, it's the 'close season' here in the UK so I haven't been playing too much OTB lately, but when the next London League and 4NCL kicks off, I think I will mostly be defending Petroffs and giving the Classical Sicilian and maybe the Alekhine a whirl (I really do think John Cox's book is excellent and has persuaded me to revisit an opening I had a brief interest in ten or more years ago).

I just don't feel good about the Pirc right now - and I haven't even seen what Khalifman has done in OWWATA 4 ...
« Last Edit: 08/03/05 at 08:04:47 by alumbrado »  

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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #20 - 08/02/05 at 23:08:36
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Oh, come on!!

I can appreciate how it might not be to TN's tastes, but the Pirc isn't really busted, is it?  Doesn't it fit into that category of openings that are cramped but potentially dynamic?
  

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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #19 - 08/02/05 at 22:01:40
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Quote:
It's been awhile since Alumbrado posted here, and I would be curious to know if he's still playing the Pirc.  Given the general sense of pessimism surrounding the pure Pirc, I also wonder if it's just a difficult opening for Black to play or whether White does enjoy a tangible advantage against best play.  My interest is in playing the Pirc in correspondence chess where I have the luxury of more time and access to literature and databases.  Is the Pirc playable in this context?


No.

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HgMan
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #18 - 08/02/05 at 21:13:30
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It's been awhile since Alumbrado posted here, and I would be curious to know if he's still playing the Pirc.  Given the general sense of pessimism surrounding the pure Pirc, I also wonder if it's just a difficult opening for Black to play or whether White does enjoy a tangible advantage against best play.  My interest is in playing the Pirc in correspondence chess where I have the luxury of more time and access to literature and databases.  Is the Pirc playable in this context?
  

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Keano
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #17 - 06/07/05 at 09:41:52
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Yes - thats the one. I'm not sure how White can avoid this. If memory serves me sensible GM's playing White tend to play moves like Bd3, 0-0, h3, a3 (after ..b5 comes), then centralize the rooks, so they have a neat little position, but the question then arises for White - then what?  Smiley 
Blacks position is difficult to crack and usually there will be an exchange on e5 at some point followed by a prod on the q-side with a4 - symbolically White is better but getting anything substantial out of this is tough work indeed.
  
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #16 - 06/02/05 at 17:38:10
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McNab has a cunning manoeuvre: he plays ...Qa5, then waits until White moves his QR so that a4--a5 is not possible, then he plays ...Qc7. The trouble is, I'm not sure he's done this, or could, after Davies' precise move order ...
  
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Keano
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #15 - 06/02/05 at 12:39:27
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Ah OK many thanks - against this system I recommend Black to think about equalizing with a system involving ..c6, ..Qa5, ...e5 - looks a little strange but McNab and Gallagher have both played this way in tournaments as I recall and White couldnt come up with anything special.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #14 - 06/02/05 at 08:20:40
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It seems to me that there are quite a few reasonable ways that Modern players can avoid the Davies Attack. Praxis suggests many if not all of them are adequate, but I for one would love to see some analysis of these possibilities.

For reasons of inclusiveness, let us suppose Black adopts Hillarp Persson's "Anti-Pirc" move order 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 a6!? (idea 4 f4 b5!?). And here, let's call 4 a4 the main line, since on 4 Nf3, 4 ...d6 5 a4 transposes, while Black may also have 4 ...b5!?, played with success by Quinteros, Sznapik and Galdunts. Then:

I  [u]4 ...d6[/u] 5 Nf3* and:

(a) 5 ...Bg4. Played by Timman, Suttles, Sznapik, Benjamin, Chernin, Epishin, Koshy, Azmaiparashvili, Andy Martin, and ... Davies! Why, with Bb5 prevented, should this not be OK?

(b) 5 ...Nc6!?. This obviously very sharp try has been played by Short, Agrest, Hickl and Minasian.

(c) 5 ...b6, with a Hippo -- the choice of Hillarp Persson.

(d) 5 ...e6, with similar ideas.

(e) 5 ...Nf6 6 h3 b6!? 7 Be3 (7 Bc4!?, 7 e5!?) Bb7 8 Bd3 (8 Bc4!?) 0-0 (8 ...c5!?, 8 ...Nc6!?, 8 ...Nbd7!?).

(*If White plays 5 h3 here, I think Black should enter a Hippo with 5 ...b6. If instead 5 ...Nc6, then after 6 Nf3 he probably has to enter another Davies line, not mentioned by alumbrado, namely 6 ...Nf6 7 Be3 0-0 8 Be2 e5 9 d5!. This is good for White acc. Davies, though perhaps it should be noted Black has done OK here with 8 ...Nd7!?.)


II  [u]4 ... c5!?[/u]. An idea of Galdunts, e.g. 5 d5 (or 5 dc Qa5 6 Ne2 Nf6) d6 6 Nf3 Nf6.


III  [u]4 ...b6!?.[/u] Presumably will transpose to I(c) or I(d), but may give extra options.


*******

@ Keano -- Davies also recommends the same system for White if Black plays ...c6 instead of ...a6, e.g.: (1) 7 ...b6 8 Be2 Qc7 9 e5 de 10 Ne5 Be6 11 Bf4; (2) 7 ...d5 8 e5!, etc. as before; (3) 7 ...Nbd7 8 a5 e5 (8 ...Qc7 9 Qd2; 8 ...d5 9 e5; 8 ...Rb8!? 9 Bd3) 9 de de 10 Qd6; (4) 7 ...a5 8 Nd2! Na6 9 Be2 c5 (9 ...d5 10 e5 and h4) 10 dc Nc5 11 e5 Ne8 12 ed.




  
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alumbrado
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #13 - 06/02/05 at 06:32:50
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The system Davies gives is basically (taking the Reti move order) 1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.e4 bg7 5.Be3 0-0 6.h3 a6 7.a4 and if 7...d5 8.e5 Ne4 9.Bd3!? or 7...b6 8.e5 Nfd7 9.e6!?

In both cases, White gets quite a dangerous attack.  Black is not without resources, but he needs to tread extremely carefully and in practical OTB play I would rather have White.

There are other ways to counter this system, but they all seem to give White at the very least a comfortable Classical-style position (whilst having avoided the ...Bg4 lines, for example).

Against this system, it is not clear to me that the Modern move order is going to make a big difference, eg 1.Nf3 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.d4 d6 4.Nc3 a6 5.a4.  Is 5...Bg4 any good there?
  

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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #12 - 06/02/05 at 06:15:15
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what is the classical system recommended by Davies against the normal Pirc? Is it the standard main-lines or does he have a new twist?
  
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #11 - 06/01/05 at 13:03:02
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Quote:
I have yet to be convinced that the Modern move-order solves anything.


For me the Modern move-order solves the problem of White being able to play drawish lines. I think that in general because Black doesn't play an early Nf6 he also doesn't have to play an early e5, as e5 from White isn't as much of a problem if it doesn't hit the knight on f6. And without an early e5 the plan dxe5, dxe5 and Qxd8 is not available so the most tedious lines are avoided. This move order does allow 3.c3 which can be quite dull, but at least the queens stay on, and there's some tension in the center.
  
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #10 - 05/29/05 at 22:13:04
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I spent the evening playing through some old Duncan Suttles games, and I came across this very interesting tilt with Bobby Fischer.  I don't suppose that it resurrects the Pirc/Modern (I presume we transpose from one to the other here), but I don't think Suttles was too badly off out of the opening either.  What do Pirc experts think about Suttles's line?  It seems as though 8 e5 might be a little more testing, but then Black has 8 ... Ng4, which looks okay (or 8 ... Nd5).  I'll need to do deeper analysis in this variation, but I must admit I found the game and Suttles's position rather aesthetically pleasing...


[Event "USA-ch"]
[Date "1965.??.??"]
[White "Fischer,Robert James"]
[Black "Suttles,Duncan"]
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nd7 6.f4 Ngf6 7.Nf3 0-0 8.h3 b5 9.Bd3 Nb6 10.b3 a5 11.0-0 b4 12.Ne2 d5 13.e5 Ne4 14.Qe1 f5 15.a3 bxa3 16.Rxa3 a4 17.Qa1 Ba6 18.Bxa6 Rxa6 19.Nc3 Qc7 20.Ne1 Rfa8 21.Nd3 R6a7 22.Qb2 e6 23.Nc5 Bf8 24.Rfa1 Kf7 25.N3xa4 Nxa4 26.bxa4 Bxc5 27.dxc5 Kg8 28.Rb3 Qa5 29.Kh2 h5 30.Rb8+ Rxb8 31.Qxb8+ Kh7 32.Rb1 Qxa4 33.Qf8 Rg7 34.Rb8 g5 35.Qh8+ Kg6 36.Qe8+ Rf7 37.Rb7  1-0

  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #9 - 05/23/05 at 16:58:39
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Thanks for this. Davies, though, recommends taking on both the Pirc and the Modern head-on with e4, d4 and Nc3 -- he doesn't discuss the systems I mention above. I haven't got Dunnington's or Palliser's book. Can anyone tell me what they recommend for White against any of these systems?
  
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #8 - 05/19/05 at 08:01:49
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[quote author=Michael Ayton  link=1108980431/0#7 date=1116478117]Thoughts/questions:

@ Inn2 -- Why does a Modern player need to play the KID? What is wrong with (1) 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 c4 c5; (2) 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 c4 d6 4 Nc3 c5; (3) 1 e4 g6 2 d4 d6 3 c4 e5? (These possibilities, the subect of other posts of mine, are rarely even mentioned in discussions of 3 c4, but if there is anything wrong with them, it certainly isn't obvious.)
[/quote]

White can probably get an edge in these lines by refusing to commit to d5 too early, maintaining the tension and  developing sensibly with Nf3/Be2 etc. Certainly this was most annoying for me when i fiddled with the modern. otherwise various repertoire books like Palliser, Dunnington, Davies' Reti etc. all have nice solutions iirc, even though I can't remember any specific lines!
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #7 - 05/19/05 at 04:48:37
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Thoughts/questions:

@ basqueknight -- Did Kasparov say this only of the Pirc, or of the Modern as well?

@ Inn2 -- Why does a Modern player need to play the KID? What is wrong with (1) 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 c4 c5; (2) 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 c4 d6 4 Nc3 c5; (3) 1 e4 g6 2 d4 d6 3 c4 e5? (These possibilities, the subect of other posts of mine, are rarely even mentioned in discussions of 3 c4, but if there is anything wrong with them, it certainly isn't obvious.)

@ alumbrado -- In feeling that the Modern move-order doesn't help, which line(s) for Black do you consider unreliable (or just don't fancy), I wonder: the various 'Pirc substitutes' (e.g. (1) 1 e4 g6 2 d4 Bg7 3 Nc3 d6 4 f4 a6 5 Nf3 Nd7, (2) 4 ...Nd7 5 Nf3 c5, (3) 3 Nc3 a6 4 f4 b5); the 'Classical Modern' with 3 Nc3 d6 4 Nf3 a6 5 Be2 b5, or with 4 ...c6; or other systems such as 4 Be3? (I'm not meaning to dispute your experience, I'm just interested.)
  
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #6 - 05/18/05 at 23:26:36
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Kasparov says that it is a loss for black but not all of us will be playing Kasparov any time soon. I think the posistions that arise are fun and unique and even some of the best attackers have played the pirc or modern such a Tal and Spassky. So i dont think its terrible Iron Tigran Petrosian also played it so maybe its not so bad but then again that was back in the day.

If you give Morozevich enough time he will probley revive it. After all he brought some lines in the CAro-Kann and French that were "Bad" back into play and showed the chess world that you can play just about any thing if you put enough study into it.

Part of the reason people crush a certain opening is because the train them selves to crush it. In the french if they let me play Alekhines Gambit in the classical I will more than likely kill. Why? Is it because it is so good? No not at all. I just know the posistions better than some. Its not seen as much any more. The best opening choice is the one that makes your opponents think the most. The pirc is not as common any more so may be a good weapon even in the 2500 crowd which means that below that it should be fine as well.
  
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #5 - 02/21/05 at 08:36:41
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I have yet to be convinced that the Modern move-order solves anything.
  

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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #4 - 02/21/05 at 07:38:32
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Quote:
well, thx alumbrado for this insightful survey!!!
Ok, I see there are many troublesome lines in the Pirc, but using the Modern move-order is supposed to solve some of these problems... Am I wrong???


You definitely need the KID in your repertoire though. I have grave doubts as to whether independent Modern lines against 1. d4 work. The only truly different line is the Averbakh 4... Nc6, but I refer to Palliser's excellent antidote with 5. Be3 and 7. c5!.
  
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #3 - 02/21/05 at 07:29:34
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I tried the pirc ages ago because I wanted something untheoretical.

But lo and behold. There is more pirc theory to study than the sicilian!  Shocked

You need to know more theory to *survive* the first 15-20 moves of the pirc, than in the sicilian.

One factor that was especially unpleasant, was that White could make inaccurate/untheoretical moves, yet very often still retaining an advantage.  Angry Compare this to the sicilian, or french (or any other mainstream opening!), where one inaccuracy by White usually lets the alert Black player equalise.

My favourite White setup is the classical system recommended in Nigel Davies' Dynamic Reti book. Only two results are possible  Grin
  
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #2 - 02/21/05 at 07:17:31
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well, thx alumbrado for this insightful survey!!!
Ok, I see there are many troublesome lines in the Pirc, but using the Modern move-order is supposed to solve some of these problems... Am I wrong???
  
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Re: Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
Reply #1 - 02/21/05 at 06:39:14
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There are problems in several lines:

1. First and foremost, the Austrian is dangerous - very dangerous:

(a) The lines with 5...0-0 6.Bd3 are not looking too rosy (after either 6...Na6 or 6...Nc6), but in any case, White has 6.Be3(!) which is very difficult to counter.  The best-regarded response is 6...b6, which I think, says it all.

(b) I think 5...c5 is best, but there are plenty of choices for White there, to, if he wants to play for a win, and there is also the semi-forced draw in the 6.Bb5† line, which Black avoids at his peril in my view.  I have had one booked-up - and much lower-rated - opponent do this to me.  MNb even thinks that 6.d5 is good for White, although I think that is manageable for Black.

2. 4.Bg5!? is nasty, too, although I don't mind that so much.

3. 4.Be3 is tricky, but OK.  For what it's worth, I think Black ought to hold off on ...b5 for a while (probably until White has played 0-0-0) and go for 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7!? with either ...Qa5 or ...Qc7 to come.

4. The real bugger from Black's point of view is that there are pesky little quiet lines such as 4.g3 which require Black to be very patient and accurate to get equality - not like, say, the French Exchange where he has it immediately.

Strong players can use these to get a nagging edge while weaker ones can use it to get a solid game and make it incredibly difficult to break them down if you are playing for a win.  I am thinking particularly of lines where dxe5 dxe5 Qxd8 happens - there are spectacularly few winning chances for black in these positions, compared even to the Exchange KID, where at least White is committed to c2-c4, so there is a hole on d4.  the best black can hope for is to weather White's early initiative and then see what is left for him after that.

I have won one or two games like this but I have had to work really hard for it - satisfying to be sure when it happens - but more often than not I end up conceding a draw - and on occasions have been happy to do that.

In summary then, against strong opposition, there is a real risk that black will get mashed up after just one inaccuracy in some of the sharper lines, or just ground down in one of the quiet lines (OK this can happen in pretty much any opening I guess) - but the problem is that I don't even think it is a good weapon against weaker players any more  Undecided
  

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Is the Pirc/modern really in trouble???
02/21/05 at 05:07:09
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Hi to all!

reading other posts in the forum, seeing that some pirc players are considering giving up their pet defense, I was wondering whether it is really in trouble, and it what lines precisely...Moreover, strong players like Grischuk and Korotylev are still willing to play it...Thus, where is the truth????
  
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