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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Scotch Game? Is it any good? (Read 23223 times)
Keano
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #31 - 04/13/15 at 21:13:29
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I played it when I was a kid before Kasparov revived it. I was told I should be playing the Spanish, now look!
  
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jon
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #30 - 03/09/15 at 06:34:09
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  I know this is an older thread, but I am reading through all the Scotch Game threads. When I was coaching a K-6th grade chess club after school in the mid 1990s, I suggested to my kids that they play the Scotch Game as white. I think it was a good choice. Around that same time period, I played it a few times in tournaments with good results. I may play it again.

  

Jon in Keaau, Hawaii
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #29 - 08/15/05 at 13:46:33
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Sam Collins has written a pretty good introduction to the Scotch in his opening repertoire for the attacking player. There is also a book from quality chess publishing on Rook v 2 minor pieces

In addition to Rublesky, the other guy to take a look at is Nataf.

A nice game for white was the recently played Radjabov v  Karajakin where white won well !

For your information,

Gary Lane's book is now advertised as for sale at the London Chess centre site.

Best wishes

Andrew


Thanks Andrew.

I already have Sam Collins' book, but I'd like more detail on the Scotch to fill in the gaps!
  

“Chess, like love, like music, has the power to make people happy” (Dr. Siegbert Tarrasch)
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Andrew Brett
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #28 - 08/15/05 at 09:29:58
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Sam Collins has written a pretty good introduction to the Scotch in his opening repertoire for the attacking player. There is also a book from quality chess publishing on Rook v 2 minor pieces

In addition to Rublesky, the other guy to take a look at is Nataf.

A nice game for white was the recently played Radjabov v  Karajakin where white won well !

For your information,

Gary Lane's book is now advertised as for sale at the London Chess centre site.

Best wishes

Andrew
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #27 - 08/13/05 at 20:00:26
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Has anyone seen anything on these two books yet?
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #26 - 08/07/05 at 02:31:14
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I am so excited this is the month for both Emms book and Gary Lane's work to come out.


Me too, but if I only buy one of them, which one should I buy? Undecided

Both seem to have good reputations as writers, but as far as I'm aware neither is a Scotch player themselves.

Lane's seems to be out already, but not Emms'.  Surely it can't be coincidence that both are out virtually simultaneously?  Are Batsford engaging in spoiling tactics with Everyman, or vice versa?
« Last Edit: 08/07/05 at 14:54:07 by SonOfPearl »  

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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #25 - 08/06/05 at 21:22:54
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I am so excited this is the month for both Emms book and Gary Lane's work to come out.
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #24 - 05/06/05 at 23:10:27
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The Scotch Gambit must be good!
The Scottish never give anything away without a very good reason.   Tongue

I've recently switched to the Scotch Gambit/Two Knights complex.  It was played by Morphy, Steinitz, Marshall (against Capablanca), and Tal, and more recent players have included Sveshnikov, Kamsky, Kramnik, and Nakamura.  I am finding it to be a very sharp and entertaining opening as well as very educational both tactically and positionally.  I highly recommend this opening as positions transpose from several different openings.
« Last Edit: 05/07/05 at 08:59:06 by Crusader_Bishop »  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #23 - 04/06/05 at 13:03:06
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Thanx.
Great forums!
  

`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH..............er, if that's all right with the rest of you. ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #22 - 04/06/05 at 10:23:29
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No comment on the Scotch but @ THUDandBLUNDER: great name, dude! Smiley
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #21 - 04/06/05 at 07:58:53
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The Scotch Gambit must be good!
The Scottish never give anything away without a very good reason.   Tongue
« Last Edit: 04/06/05 at 13:04:32 by THUDandBLUNDER »  

`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH..............er, if that's all right with the rest of you. ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #20 - 03/20/05 at 14:54:00
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Hello All,
I've had fun playing the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed 4.Nd4 Bc5 5.Be3 Qf6 6.Nb5!? (Blumenfeld Attack) after seeing an article in NIC 2003/7.  I'm not sure I would want to play it against strong opposition, but at the local club level...interesting games. Any thoughts?
Regards

I agree this line is fun, although after 6...Bxe3 7.fxe3 White's doubled isolated e-pawns look suspiciously suspicious to me! Of course White's attacking chances should not be underestimated, but one interesting possiblity for Black is 7...Qh4+ 8.g3 Qd8 9.Qg4 g5!? which was used by Godena a couple of years ago to hold Ponomariov to a draw. The main point of 9...g5 seems to be to prevent Qf4 which would be followed by Bc4 and 0-0 with pressure on f7 (as might happen after 9...g6). White didn't seem to get much in this game Sad:

Ponomariov, Ruslan [2718] - Godena, Michele [2518]
EU-chT (Men), Oct. 2003
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Bc5 5.Be3 Qf6 6.Nb5 Bxe3 7.fxe3 Qh4+ 8.g3 Qd8 9.Qg4 g5 10.N1c3 d6 11.Qe2 a6 12.Nd4 Ne5 13.Qg2 Be6 14.0-0-0 Qd7 15.h4 gxh4 16.gxh4 Bg4 17.Be2 Ne7 18.Bxg4 Qxg4 19.Qf2 0-0-0 20.Qf6 Qd7 21.h5 Rhg8 22.Rhg1 Qh3 23.Rge1 Rde8 24.Qh6 Rg2 25.Rh1 Qg3 26.Qxh7 Qxe3+ 27.Kb1 Reg8 28.Nf5 Nxf5 29.Qxf5+ Kb8 30.h6 R2g6 31.Nd5 Qg5 32.Rdf1 Rh8 33.h7 c6 34.Nf6 Qxf5 35.Rxf5 Kc7 36.b3 Kd8 37.Ng8 Rg7 38.Rd1 Rgxh7 39.Rxd6+ Kc7 40.Rd2 Rxg8 41.Rxe5 f6 42.Rf5 Re8 43.Rf4 Rhe7 44.Rd4 Rd7 45.c3 Re5 46.Kc2 c5 47.Rxd7+ Kxd7 48.Kd3 Re6 49.Ke3 Rd6 50.Rf5 b6 51.Rd5 Ke6 52.c4 Rd7 53.Kf4 Rh7 54.Rd8 Rh4+ 55.Kf3 Rh3+ 56.Kg4 Rh2 57.Re8+ Kd6 58.Kf5 Rf2+ 59.Kg6 Rxa2 60.Kf7 b5 61.Re6+ Kd7 62.Kxf6 Rf2+ 63.Ke5 Rb2 64.Rd6+ Kc7 65.Rd3 Kc6 66.Ke6 bxc4 67.bxc4 Rc2 68.Rd6+ Kc7 69.Rxa6 Rxc4 70.e5 Rh4 71.Kd5 Rd4+ 72.Kxc5 Rd1 73.Rd6 Rxd6 74.exd6+ Kd7 75.Kd5 Kd8 76.Ke6 Ke8 77.d7+ Kd8 78.Kd6 ½-½
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #19 - 03/19/05 at 12:28:54
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It it strange that the Bishop's Opening line mentioned above by MNb is not at all mentioned in Lane's new The Bishop's Opening Explained, whereas Emms's Attacking with 1 e4 has a few words on it. Emms discusses 5. Nf3 and 5. f4 (transposing to something KGD-like anyway).

(Sorry, this has not much to do with the Scotch).
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #18 - 03/19/05 at 10:29:42
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Generally speaking I agree with DragonSlayer. But I would like to add 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Bc5 4.c3!? which leads to an interesting position of the Göring/Scottish Gambit complex. The short chapter in Müller/Voigt's book is rather wanting.
I also want to mention the main reason I abandoned the Bishop's Opening: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 (hoping to reach the KG-Declined) c6!
  

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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #17 - 03/19/05 at 09:02:02
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Well the King's Indian and the Sicilian dragon (and the Leningrad Dutch for that matter) are very similar openings in terms of strategy due to the Gufeld bishop on g7. Getting something similar with 1.e4 e5 is very difficult.
The problem with 1.e4 e5 (and 1.d4 d5) openings is that it creates a static and symmetrical centre. Now every pawn move to d4 (or e4) will be met by exd4 (or dxe4).
Usually White will try to find another way to get a central majority or put some pressure on Black's pawn centre. After 1.d4 d5 there is the queen's gambit with 2.c4. If Black accepts then an eventual e2-e4 creates a pawn majority in the centre which cramps Black's game.
In the King's pawn openings the only similar try is to play f2-f4. This can be done with the King's gambit 2.f4, which unlike the QG is a real gambit. Alternatively there is the Vienna or bishop's opening. The American master Weaver Warren Adams believed that the position after something like 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 Nc6 5.f4 d6 6.Nf3 was close to winning for White and any King's gambit player will give his right arm to get this position with White.
Unfortunately W.W. Adams never found a safe way to reach the position:
In the Vienna Black can annoy us with 3...Nxe4 which does not even lead to the Frankenstein-Dracula (4.Qh5 Nd6 5.Bb3 and now 5...Be7 instead of 5...Nc6)
in the bishop's opening there is 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 c6 with ...d5 to come.
In the King's gambit Black is unfortunately not forced to play 2...Bc5 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Bc4 Nc6 6.d3.
The only other way to put pressure on e5 is the Ruy Lopez, but Black can avoid that too and play the Petroff which is even more symmetrical.

Regarding the Scotch one can avoid the Petroff with 2.d4. People that know me and play the Scotch always play 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 since this avoids both the Latvian and Elephant gambits, maybe not so important for GMs but in blitz and rapidplay who wants to try and refute these openings. It also cuts down on Black's options in a Petroff.
Black need not comply with White's plans and go for 3...Nc6 with a Scotch. Besides 3...Bb4+ 4.Bd2 there is also the careless 3...c5?! which can be met by the gambit 4.c3. I reckon Black's best is 3...Bc5.

Since I don't have a problem with the King's gambit 1...e5 is not the problem for me. Rather, the French 1...e6 is the most annoying as Black decides what kind of game is to be played (Fort Knox or Winaver; 3...c5 or 3...Nf6 against the Tarrasch etc.)

In a way it is more difficult to play White.
With Black I need only two openings> The Dragon and the Leningrad Dutch.
With White one needs to be able to play a whole host of different positions depending on what Black chooses (Caro-Kann, French, Sicilian, 1...e5, Pirc/modern, Alekhine def, Scandinavian in all its different variations).
One could argue that 1.f4 or 1.c4 would lead to reversed Dutch or reversed Dragon positions but in my experience Black players don't allow a reversed Leningrad after 1.f4 and not a lot of people are willing to play a reversed Dragon with 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5.

Once in a while when I am at a loss what opening or variation to choose against something, I take a look in the database to see what the grandmasters that play the same openings as I do, play against it.
For Dragons and King's Indian your reference should be Belorussian GM Alexey Fedorov. He used to play the KG until it was revealed that 3.Nf3 g5 is a draw. Now he plays the Bishop's opening, food for thought.

My best advice is to avoid the Petroff and learn the Bishop's gambit (2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4!) or the Vienna/Bishop's opening.
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #16 - 03/17/05 at 15:44:56
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Gambits Dammit just rhymed. I am actually interested in finding a solid white option without being down a pawn. I mean on the Black side of things, I play the dragon and the king's indian. I am just looking for something just as dynamic.
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #15 - 03/17/05 at 12:12:18
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Just curious - what is it that makes a BDG-fan shy away from the KG?? Too much comp or what? Wink  ???


Yeah actually, KG is decent for White, at least the Bishop's Gambit.  I would look at that if my motto were "Gambits Dammit!"  I regret I can't similarly recommend the Danish, which I believe to be unsound.
  

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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #14 - 03/17/05 at 10:18:24
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Hi, as a new 1.e4 player, I was wondering what some of the 1.e4 e5 members thought of the scotch game.
Is it inferior to the spanish or a viable opening through which white can obtain a strong intiative and solid advantage.

Just curious.

Teyko (The Blackmar Diemar Gambit guy)



Just curious - what is it that makes a BDG-fan shy away from the KG?? Too much comp or what? Wink  ???
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #13 - 03/17/05 at 09:34:30
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One other aspect of the scotch is that you can gambit the pawn (which you seem to enjoy Wink).
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 4 Bc4
-4 .. Bc5 allows for wild play with c3, 0-0 or even Ng5
-4 .. Nf6 allows the Max Lange after 0-0 (I dont trust the Nxe4 variation for white so I dont play it in a normal game) or the modern variation with 5 e5, which is quite tricky to meet for black. I played this a couple of times as you can reach it from the Two knights defense as well.
Most books dealing with these variations are usually based on the Giuoco/TKD, so you wont find them in a book on the scotch.

Another thing is that you can answer the Petrov with 3 Nc3 though I dont know much about variations there.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #12 - 03/17/05 at 00:06:04
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In the scotch game black often ends up with more active pieces while white has a superior structure. You should consider this as the white side might not be comfortable for a BDG player.
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #11 - 03/04/05 at 08:53:57
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Hello All,
I've had fun playing the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed 4.Nd4 Bc5 5.Be3 Qf6 6.Nb5!? (Blumenfeld Attack) after seeing an article in NIC 2003/7.  I'm not sure I would want to play it against strong opposition, but at the local club level...interesting games. Any thoughts?
Regards
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #10 - 03/04/05 at 04:23:56
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Sergey Rublevsky is probably the strongest current player who employs it regularly.  If you do a database search for his games with the Scotch and play through them you should be able to decide if it suits you.
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #9 - 03/03/05 at 20:26:56
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In Danish Dynamite Müller and Vogt break a lance for 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 5.Bd2. This might cause Black some problems.
  

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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #8 - 03/03/05 at 13:12:37
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If I wasn't happy with the KG I guess I'd be looking into the Scotch (and probably a 4knights / Belgrade vs the Petroff) as it seems the only ambitious alternative to the Ruy's mountain of theory. Last year there were about 25 games between players +2500, which might indicate that the Scotch is something used when there is a definite need to win. Smiley

Though when looking through some games after 1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nc6  3. d4 exd4  4. Nxd4 Nf6  5. Nxc6 bxc6  6. e5 Qe7 7.Qe2 Nd5 it's striking how very exactly both sides most play! Hardly positions you can play 'with your hands'!

Kasparov played it quite successfully as late as 2000/2001 beating Timman, Adams and Bacrot 3/3.

In last year's Linares there was an exciting game, Radjabov-Kasparov where black could have safely repeated moves and drawn around move 25, but chose to play out the ending R+N vs R+B, with an entertaining draw as result!

I wonder if Kasparov has quit it for good or if he has the Scotch still in his sleeve. maybe the last few rounds in Linares will answer that? Cheesy
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #7 - 03/03/05 at 12:38:23
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I would be a little cautious before playing 2. d4 exd4  3. Nf3 Bb4+  4. c3 or any other like that led to the Goering.  That gambit fails to offer full compensation, and I'm always happy when it's played against me.


Agreed.  I don't think the Scotch can serve as a complete repertoire for White against 1 ... e5.  I would be inclined to stick with the standard mover order and find something else with which to confront the Petroff.
  

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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #6 - 03/03/05 at 08:54:09
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I've played 1...e5 most of my life and I find that 1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nc6  3. d4 exd4  4. Nxd4 Nf6  5. Nxc6 bxc6  6. e5 is not so easy to meet.  I lost a correspondence game on the Black side of this without being entirely sure where I made my mistake.  White sacrifices time in exchange for space, and systems that do that typically are very dynamic. 

I have looked a little at 4...Bc5 and my impression is that Black's game is not so simple there, either.  4...Qh5 is untrustworthy.

I think the Scotch is White's next best winning try after the Ruy, and I would strongly recommend it to a player starting out with 1. e4.

I would be a little cautious before playing 2. d4 exd4  3. Nf3 Bb4+  4. c3 or any other like that led to the Goering.  That gambit fails to offer full compensation, and I'm always happy when it's played against me.
  

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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #5 - 03/03/05 at 04:57:03
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You could try to avoid the Petroff with the move order 1.e4 e5 2.d4!? exd4 3.Nf3 when 3...Nf6 transposes to a line that is though to be inferior (Black would normally meet 3.d4 in the Petroff with 3...Nxe4! rather than 3...exd4?!).

The problem is that Black can lob in 3...Bb4†!? when 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 tranposes to a Goring Gambit after an eventual ...Nc6 (which it is hard for Black to avoid).  On the plus side, it has forced black to accept the gambit, avoiding the Capablance Defence with [1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.c3] 4...d5.  On the minus side, it has robbed White of the opportunity to play it as a double pawn sac [1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 dxc3 5.Bc4!?].

As for the Scotch itself, I have my doubts.  The main lines with 4...Nf6 seem pretty easy for Black to me.  And 4...Bc5 ain't bad either.

I don't have either the book or a set in front of me at the moment but there is a line in Sam Collins recent repertoire book which left me puzzled: it is in the ...Bc5/...Qf6 line and Black has a bishop on d4 and White plays Ne2 to get rid of it, but no mention is made of the possibility of ...Bxb2, simply snatching a pawn.  I had a look at the position and was very sceptical as to whether White had sufficient compensation.
  

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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #4 - 03/03/05 at 04:20:38
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If you are interested in the Scotch, the English Grandmaster Peter Wells wrote a very good book on it a few years ago.  I bought the book but never played the opening for some reason!
  
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #3 - 03/02/05 at 21:37:59
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Before Kasparov both Dutch GM's Timman and Van der Wiel have played it with success. The Scotch is still a cornerstone of the latter's repertoire.
It was an important reason for me to give up 1...e5. But after reading Gutman's 4...Dh4 in der Schottischen Partie I consider to take up the challenge again - but I am doubting for more than a year already.
The Scotch is the best Open Game for White after the Ruy Lopez. Only problem: the Petrov. The Scotch is in any case much more sensible than the BDG ....
« Last Edit: 03/03/05 at 20:29:18 by MNb »  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Willempie
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #2 - 03/02/05 at 21:16:18
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When I used to answer e5 I found the scotch the most annoying. With the Spanish or Giuco I knew what to do and with the others it is just playing field, but not against the scotch. Imo it is the best for white as most black players including me just know the first few moves (I played 4 Bc5 and never remembered anything beyond that)
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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HgMan
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Re: Scotch Game? Is it any good?
Reply #1 - 03/02/05 at 20:49:40
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Well, Kasparov thought it was worth a go in the late-80s or early-90s.  Almost twenty years ago, the chess instructor at the school I was at recommended we play the Sicilian as Black and the Scotch as White.  I'm afraid I don't remember any of the theory, but remember thinking it was fairly solid.  I'm sure Kasparov's interest in it provoked a lot of new ideas for Black and White since I tried it, but I'm sure it's worth a look.  Doesn't Short dust it off from time to time?
  

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teyko
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Scotch Game? Is it any good?
03/02/05 at 20:06:25
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Hi, as a new 1.e4 player, I was wondering what some of the 1.e4 e5 members thought of the scotch game.
Is it inferior to the spanish or a viable opening through which white can obtain a strong intiative and solid advantage.

Just curious.

Teyko (The Blackmar Diemar Gambit guy)
  
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