Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to combat the King's Indian? (Read 25099 times)
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #80 - 09/21/05 at 04:50:28
Post Tools
I guess I have exceptional guts to continue the discussions. Since I started it, I thought Ill finish it. I thought by discussing one other important line, this thread will have all the necessary materials to introduce this line. Ill refrain from posting concrete lines for the time being.

First a disclaimer. The thread is How to combat the Kings Indian and not How to check mate the Kings Indian. I suggested Bg5 system of Saemisch as a means to be followed to get comfortable game that is light on theory. As a line where understanding plays more important role and where virtually at all turns both black and white have 3 or 4 reasonable alternatives, with almost identical fridz evaluation!

One other important continuation is Byrne System playing c6,a6 and b5.

1.Trying to stop Queenside play may be counter productive. After playing a6, black can play a5 to meet a4 followed by Na6-c7, Rb8 and b5. Trying to stop the play results in too much of play and the resultant positions are unclear. I have to grudgingly admit, I like black pieces somewhat better than white pieces.

2. Even if permitted, it is best not to resort to Nh3-f2 plan. They work well in Benoni systems. But on systems with pawn on e7, Nh3 is playable not the best.

3. So the best method, to me, seems to be to permit minimal play on the queen side. Ng1-e2-c1 or Rad1 or Bd3,Nge2 There are many ways of handling this and the choice is matter of taste. I prefer Bd3,Nge2 system. White should try and get its b3 in. An important strategy to curtail queenside play. If we are lucky, black will play b4 and get into trouble. Nc3-a4-b2-d3-f5 and Ng1-e2-g3-f5. It normally leads to another sac sac mate situation in an impossibly closed position.

Generally plans are the same in all System das Laufer g5 lines. (Correct German?)
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #79 - 09/06/05 at 19:54:57
Post Tools
So I say how can you know if you dont look or check it for yourself and I question your opinion or the worth of it because you give the opinion without checking -- I do that and I am abusing?

If you got abuse at home, like you say, I dont know . I dont know either why you dont have thicker skin.

I was the NCO in charge of Special team 12 in Iraq. I told the captain why are we proceeding in what he considers a safe route if he had not done a recon of the area or checked with other subject matter experts, and if he had considered that abuse, I and my soldiers and the other teams would all have been shocked.

Just in case after further consideration or review, you still feel I have abused you,  I honestly offer you my apologies.

La samaha Allah, anta radbana, ea akhee !!
« Last Edit: 09/06/05 at 21:10:50 by BladezII »  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #78 - 09/06/05 at 01:41:10
Post Tools
Bladez,

I don't have to come here to get abuse.  I can get that at home, thank you! Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #77 - 09/06/05 at 00:22:19
Post Tools
How can you KNOW without looking at his position? If his position is good, why not ? If it is not good you won't know until you see it, if you see it. Get chessbase light with no engine running and enter the moves. I repect your busy schedule, really. God bless you.

But if Black's position in this line is good. You wont see it for yourself so really there is no point in your opinion. I dont know what is the point of giving me an opinion about something you have not checked yourself.

By the way, I answered and provided a more accurate appraisal of Black's position in that other post and backed it up with some lines which were to the point.
First I evaluated the position and then I went to work around the key ideas. That line in the Averbakh (you will have to check the post) really looks good and harmless for Black now after the changes.

Undecided
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #76 - 09/05/05 at 22:31:34
Post Tools
I'll only answer the last question you posed Bladez, because right now I really am too lazy to sift through all those lines.  (I just played in a six round state championship and finished 5th after being seeded 15th.)

No, I'm not a fan of Black's position.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #75 - 09/05/05 at 04:29:41
Post Tools
So.... going back to my point.  Black is fine here in the line after 9.d5, I mean, he's is doing well.  Have you guys checked those lines I posted?  Comments?  Any fans of the Black side here?

Undecided
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #74 - 09/04/05 at 00:21:41
Post Tools
Castlerock,

Thanks for bringing that bit of etiquette up!  I hadn't noticed too much of that, but it's good to know the rules.

As one of my favorite politicians, Barbara Jordan, once said, "In order to play the game well, you have to know all the rules."  (Ok, she was talking about the rules for the House of Representatives.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2130
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #73 - 09/03/05 at 21:09:45
Post Tools
Quote:
Bladez,

A small request. Please don't keep altering your previous posts based on comments made later. Subsequent discussions become meaning less and there is a danger of subsequent posters looking like jokers in the eyes of an unsuspecting lurker. Sad This is pretty serious and I would like you to avoid it.

Modify function is available only for correcting typos and glaring errors and not for changing the original content because of subsequent posts. This basically makes a forum discussion meaningless, imho.


Good point Grin

Modifications should not be used to flip flop, or otherwise change the intent or conclusions of a post.

If subsequent posts casts doubt on something or the other, simply acknowledge it, or counter it in a separate post.

Perhaps this issue could be alleviated in part by using the  "Quote" feature when responding to certain posts.

Your humble servant

Toppy Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #72 - 09/03/05 at 06:39:01
Post Tools
Fair enough. Let's leave it at that.
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #71 - 09/03/05 at 06:15:22
Post Tools
Mnb,

I apologized for the modifications.  I had a lot of material to include and I kept leaving items out of the post and  since it was one unit, I want to keep it together.  They were items I had made a note to cover.
Again, sorry if it caused you any inconvenience.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #70 - 09/03/05 at 05:46:55
Post Tools
Bladez,

A small request. Please don't keep altering your previous posts based on comments made later. Subsequent discussions become meaning less and there is a danger of subsequent posters looking like jokers in the eyes of an unsuspecting lurker. Sad This is pretty serious and I would like you to avoid it.

Modify function is available only for correcting typos and glaring errors and not for changing the original content because of subsequent posts. This basically makes a forum discussion meaningless, imho.
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #69 - 09/03/05 at 03:56:26
Post Tools
Thank you MNB, for your reply. I must admit that what I had to say was White SHOULD play Nbc3 in order to avoid complicating HIMSELF.

I would like to make it really clear that if I dont post some move for White it does not mean that I have not looked at it, unless I say I have not looked at it. MNB, just ask me if I have looked at something and I will tell you. I have looked at Qd3 and I will share what I have, which will probe how much you know about Black's possibilities after Qd3.

Second, I am not about to post every possibility I deem for White. Really I dont have the time for that. Let me pick and choose, but dont assume you can play God and know what I miss everytime or why I did not include this or that. You simply migh not know why. Just ask me, I will tell you yes or no and I will explain. OK? Thank you.

Really, after

18. Qd3 Ne4 (?) this is just a bad move. I dont know if you knew this but this is not even an option.

18. Qd3 Bd7 !

This is the move and Black's initiative just grows. For the purpose of providing an example here are some moves:

19.a4 c4
20.Qxc4 Rc8
21. Qd3 Qb6+
22.Ncd4 Bxb5
23. axb5 Nxd5

Now the other option you suggested here:

18.Rae1 Ne4
19.Qc1   Qb6
20.Bc4  Ba6
21.a4  Bd4+
22.Ncd4+  cxd4
23.Bd3  Bxb5
24.axb5 Ne3

Black is in the driver seat and with good chances for the win.

Now, moving on to Bxf5 which I agree with Mnb, it is good stuff.

A)14.g4 Bxc2
15.gxh5 Bf5
16.f4 Nf7
17.Bh4 b5

The only thing unclear to me here is where is the doubt that Black has a comfortable game here and no longer playing to equalize and that he enjoys the initiative? Let's look a bit deeper, just an example, some moves:

17... b5
18. cxb5 axb5
19.Nxb5 Qd7
20.a4 Be4
21. Rg1 Qh3
22. Bg3 Qf5

B) 14.00 h6
15.Bxh6 Bxh6
16.Qxh6 Bxc2
17.Rac1

OR---[17.Qd2 Bf5 18.g4 b5 19.cxb5 axb5 20.gxh5 Qd7! Black is doing great. If now 21.Ne4 then both 21... b4 with idea of b3 coming up or 21.... Bh3, again, Black is doing fine.]

17... Bf5
18.g4 Ng7
19.gxf5 Nxf5
20.Qd2 b5
21.cxb5 axb5
22.Nxb5 Qb6
23.a4 c4+
24.Kh1 Qe3

Black is fine; he has a good game.
« Last Edit: 09/03/05 at 06:02:01 by BladezII »  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10607
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #68 - 09/03/05 at 01:05:15
Post Tools
"Black is threatening to play Ne4, a strong move that White has only 18.Nbc3 to stop it."
This is simply not true. 18.Qd3 Ne4 19.Bxg4 Nxg5 20.fxg5 hxg4 21.Rxf8+ Qxf8 22.Rf1 Qe8 23.a4 Bxb2 24.Ne3 is slightly better for White.
18.Rae1 Ne4 19.Qc1 is another option.
This is what I meant, when I wrote, that Bladez does not investigate all White's options. But it is possible of course, that Black can prove equality after both 18.Qd3 and 18.Rae1.

"If White does not play 18. Nbc3, he is simply asking for trouble."
Maybe. But ignorant as I am, I really would like to see how Black will punish White.

The stuff on 13...Bxf5 is better, but again improvements for White must be considered.
A)14.g4 Bxc2 15.gxh5 Bf5 16.f4 Nf7 17.Bh4 is rather unclear.
B) 14.o-o h6 15.Bxh6 (15.Be3 must be considered too) Bxh6 16.Qxh6 Bxc2 17.Qd2 (17.Rac1!?) Bf5 18.g4 b5 19.cxb5 axb5 20.gxh5 is again rather unclear. Bladez' line only shows, that for a Black attack the knight is more dangerous than the bishop - so gxh5 is to be preferred. In fact I think White must be happy to trade his worst piece (Nc2) for a dangerous Black attacking piece (Nh5).
This does not mean, that White is better after 9.d5. I still have severe objections against this move; the most important being a very inflexible pawn structure. Next time - but it will take a couple of days - I will look for a decent alternative.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #67 - 09/02/05 at 14:42:07
Post Tools
We can put it all behind. Let's just be as professional as we can about it and after the search and discussion of truth, nothing personal. I really think I should repeat that I feel Black is equal in the Saemisch Bg5 Nc6 line and even more specific, after the comment by castlerock, in the line of 9.d5. If you think this is not right or if you feel different, show me what ideas and, of course, include the line that present a problem for Black.

I will look at the idea presented by Heinze and discuss a little about it:

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. f3 O-O
6.Bg5 Nc6
7. Nge2 a6
8. Qd2 Rb8
9. d5 Ne5
10. Nd4 c5
11. Nc2 Nh5
12. Be2 f5
13. gxf5

Here is a good ocassion to pinpoint the strength of Black's position. When you are presented with more than one way to a nice game, your position is a very healthy position. Black can play here either

13.... gxf5

or

13.... Bxf5

and in my opinion he is not offering material in the first line.

For example, after

13...... gxf5
14.f4 Ng4
15.o-o b5
16.cxb5 axb5
17.Nxb5 Nhf6

"Black has compensation"--according to Hazai. I think this evaluation is not totally accurate. Let me explain: Black is threatening to play Ne4, a strong move that White has only 18.Nbc3 to stop it. Now Black plays 18... Rxb2 with a fine game, and this renders the phrase "with compensation" inaccurate. If White does not play 18. Nbc3, he is simply asking for trouble.

Now for the other option--

13.... Bxf5


A)14.g4 Bxc2
15.Qxc2?! [Better is 15.gxh5 Bf5 16.h6 Bh8 (or 16...Bf6) and Black has a fine game.] 15... Nf4 Black is not playing "just" to equalize anymore.

B)14.0-0 h6
15.Bxh6?! Bxh6
16.Qxh6 Bxc2
17.Qd2 Bf5
18.g4 b5
19.gxf5 Qd7
20.cxb5

[20.fxg6 Nf4 White is in trouble.]

20... Qxf5
21.bxa6 Nf4

Black has a very serious initiative and is playing to win.
« Last Edit: 09/02/05 at 21:24:15 by BladezII »  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #66 - 09/02/05 at 04:42:13
Post Tools
Quote:
Bladez,

Again, what is the point in tinkering lines and letting fritz run over time? From 11...Ne8, you have changed it to 11...Nh5 and now the topography changes. There's absolutely no point. Trying to refute 1.d4 with Kings Indian is laudable Cheesy Just Kidding.


Whoa, Bladez, I guess I pressed some wrong buttons. Comment about refutation of 1.d4 was made absolutely on a lighter vein. "Just kidding" proves that. If you are hurt I'm sorry.

I can't make any serious analysis till sunday and on Sunday I'm planning to look at it and I guess we can take it from there.

As regards reference to fridz, some of the lines did appear fridzy to me. Now I take your explanation at face value. But, if you are dropping a move and replacing it with something else, I would expect that the fact is made known. No one goes back. I understand it could be a slip.

Anyway, I'm sorry again, if I hurt your feelings in some form. BTW I do respect your passionate love for KI. Wink
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo