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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How to combat the King's Indian? (Read 25102 times)
castlerock
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #80 - 09/21/05 at 04:50:28
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I guess I have exceptional guts to continue the discussions. Since I started it, I thought I’ll finish it. I thought by discussing one other important line, this thread will have all the necessary materials to introduce this line. I’ll refrain from posting concrete lines for the time being.

First a disclaimer. The thread is ‘How to combat the Kings Indian’ and not ‘How to check mate the Kings Indian’. I suggested Bg5 system of Saemisch as a means to be followed to get comfortable game that is light on theory. As a line where understanding plays more important role and where virtually at all turns both black and white have 3 or 4 reasonable alternatives, with almost identical fridz evaluation!

One other important continuation is Byrne System – playing c6,a6 and b5.

1.Trying to stop Queenside play may be counter productive. After playing a6, black can play a5 to meet a4 followed by Na6-c7, Rb8 and b5. Trying to stop the play results in too much of play and the resultant positions are unclear. I have to grudgingly admit, I like black pieces somewhat better than white pieces.

2. Even if permitted, it is best not to resort to Nh3-f2 plan. They work well in Benoni systems. But on systems with pawn on e7, Nh3 is playable – not the best.

3. So the best method, to me, seems to be to permit minimal play on the queen side. Ng1-e2-c1 or Rad1 or Bd3,Nge2 – There are many ways of handling this and the choice is matter of taste. I prefer Bd3,Nge2 system. White should try and get its b3 in. An important strategy to curtail queenside play. If we are lucky, black will play b4 and get into trouble. Nc3-a4-b2-d3-f5 and Ng1-e2-g3-f5. It normally leads to another sac sac mate situation in an impossibly closed position.

Generally plans are the same in all System das Laufer g5 lines. (Correct German?)
  

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BladezII
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #79 - 09/06/05 at 19:54:57
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So I say how can you know if  you dont look or check it for yourself and I question your opinion or the worth of it because you give the opinion without checking -- I do that and I am abusing?

If you got abuse at home, like you say, I dont know .  I dont know either why you dont have thicker skin.

I was the NCO in charge of Special team 12 in Iraq.  I told the captain why are we proceeding in what he considers a safe route if he had not done a recon of the area or checked with other subject matter experts, and if he had considered that abuse, I  and my soldiers and the other teams would all have been shocked.

Just in case after further consideration or review, you still feel I have abused you,  I honestly offer you my apologies.

La samaha Allah, anta radbana, ea akhee !!
« Last Edit: 09/06/05 at 21:10:50 by BladezII »  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #78 - 09/06/05 at 01:41:10
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Bladez,

I don't have to come here to get abuse.  I can get that at home, thank you! Smiley
  
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BladezII
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #77 - 09/06/05 at 00:22:19
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How can you KNOW without looking at his position?  If his position is good, why not ?  If it is not good you won't know until you see it, if you see it.  Get chessbase light with no engine running and enter the moves.  I repect your busy schedule, really.  God bless you.

But if Black's position in this line is good.  You wont see it for yourself so really there is no point in your opinion.  I dont know what is the point of giving me an opinion about something you have not checked yourself.

By the way, I answered and provided a more accurate appraisal of Black's position in that other post and backed it up with some lines which were to the point.
First I evaluated the position and then I went to work around the key ideas.  That line in the Averbakh (you will have to check the post) really looks good and harmless for Black now after the changes.

Undecided
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #76 - 09/05/05 at 22:31:34
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I'll only answer the last question you posed Bladez, because right now I really am too lazy to sift through all those lines.  (I just played in a six round state championship and finished 5th after being seeded 15th.)

No, I'm not a fan of Black's position.
  
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BladezII
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #75 - 09/05/05 at 04:29:41
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So.... going back to my point.  Black is fine here in the line after 9.d5, I mean, he's is doing well.  Have you guys checked those lines I posted?  Comments?  Any fans of the Black side here?

Undecided
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #74 - 09/04/05 at 00:21:41
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Castlerock,

Thanks for bringing that bit of etiquette up!  I hadn't noticed too much of that, but it's good to know the rules.

As one of my favorite politicians, Barbara Jordan, once said, "In order to play the game well, you have to know all the rules."  (Ok, she was talking about the rules for the House of Representatives.)
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #73 - 09/03/05 at 21:09:45
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Bladez,

A small request. Please don't keep altering your previous posts based on comments made later. Subsequent discussions become meaning less and there is a danger of subsequent posters looking like jokers in the eyes of an unsuspecting lurker. Sad This is pretty serious and I would like you to avoid it.

Modify function is available only for correcting typos and glaring errors and not for changing the original content because of subsequent posts. This basically makes a forum discussion meaningless, imho.


Good point Grin

Modifications should not be used to flip flop, or otherwise change the intent or conclusions of a post.

If subsequent posts casts doubt on something or the other, simply acknowledge it, or counter it in a separate post.

Perhaps this issue could be alleviated in part by using the  "Quote" feature when responding to certain posts.

Your humble servant

Toppy Grin
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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castlerock
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #72 - 09/03/05 at 06:39:01
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Fair enough. Let's leave it at that.
  

CastleRock
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BladezII
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #71 - 09/03/05 at 06:15:22
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Mnb,

I apologized for the modifications.  I had a lot of material to include and I kept leaving items out of the post and  since it was one unit, I want to keep it together.  They were items I had made a note to cover.
Again, sorry if it caused you any inconvenience.
  

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castlerock
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #70 - 09/03/05 at 05:46:55
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Bladez,

A small request. Please don't keep altering your previous posts based on comments made later. Subsequent discussions become meaning less and there is a danger of subsequent posters looking like jokers in the eyes of an unsuspecting lurker. Sad This is pretty serious and I would like you to avoid it.

Modify function is available only for correcting typos and glaring errors and not for changing the original content because of subsequent posts. This basically makes a forum discussion meaningless, imho.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #69 - 09/03/05 at 03:56:26
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Thank you MNB, for your reply.  I must admit that what I had to say was White SHOULD play Nbc3 in order to avoid complicating HIMSELF.

I would like to make it really clear that if I dont post some move for White it does not mean that I have not looked at it, unless I say I have not looked at it.  MNB, just ask me if I have looked at something and I will tell you.  I have looked at Qd3 and I will share what I have, which will probe how much you know about Black's possibilities after Qd3.

Second, I am not about to post every possibility I deem for White.  Really I dont have the time for that.  Let me pick and choose, but dont assume you can play God and know what I miss everytime or why I did not include this or that.  You simply migh not know why.  Just ask me, I will tell you yes or no and I will explain.  OK?  Thank you.

Really, after

18. Qd3 Ne4 (?) this is just a bad move.  I dont know if you knew this but this is not even an option.

18. Qd3  Bd7 !  

This is the move and Black's initiative just grows.  For the purpose of providing an example here are some moves:

19.a4  c4
20.Qxc4 Rc8
21. Qd3 Qb6+
22.Ncd4  Bxb5
23. axb5  Nxd5

Now the other option you suggested here:

18.Rae1 Ne4
19.Qc1   Qb6
20.Bc4  Ba6
21.a4  Bd4+
22.Ncd4+  cxd4
23.Bd3  Bxb5
24.axb5 Ne3

Black is in the driver seat and with good chances for the win.

Now, moving on to Bxf5 which I agree with Mnb, it is good stuff.

A)14.g4 Bxc2
15.gxh5 Bf5
16.f4 Nf7
17.Bh4 b5

The only thing unclear to me here is where is the doubt that Black has a comfortable game here and no longer playing to equalize and that he enjoys the initiative?    Let's look a bit deeper, just an example, some moves:

17...  b5
18. cxb5 axb5
19.Nxb5 Qd7
20.a4  Be4
21. Rg1  Qh3
22.  Bg3 Qf5

B) 14.0–0  h6
15.Bxh6  Bxh6
16.Qxh6  Bxc2
17.Rac1  

OR---[17.Qd2 Bf5  18.g4 b5  19.cxb5 axb5 20.gxh5 Qd7! Black is doing great.  If now 21.Ne4 then both 21...  b4 with idea of b3 coming up or 21.... Bh3, again, Black is doing fine.]

17...     Bf5
18.g4   Ng7
19.gxf5  Nxf5
20.Qd2  b5
21.cxb5  axb5
22.Nxb5  Qb6
23.a4  c4+
24.Kh1  Qe3

Black is fine; he has a good game.
« Last Edit: 09/03/05 at 06:02:01 by BladezII »  

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MNb
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #68 - 09/03/05 at 01:05:15
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"Black is threatening to play Ne4, a strong move that White has only 18.Nbc3 to stop it."
This is simply not true. 18.Qd3 Ne4 19.Bxg4 Nxg5 20.fxg5 hxg4 21.Rxf8+ Qxf8 22.Rf1 Qe8 23.a4 Bxb2 24.Ne3 is slightly better for White.
18.Rae1 Ne4 19.Qc1 is another option.
This is what I meant, when I wrote, that Bladez does not investigate all White's options. But it is possible of course, that Black can prove equality after both 18.Qd3 and 18.Rae1.

"If White does not play 18. Nbc3, he is simply asking for trouble."
Maybe. But ignorant as I am, I really would like to see how Black will punish White.

The stuff on 13...Bxf5 is better, but again improvements for White must be considered.
A)14.g4 Bxc2 15.gxh5 Bf5 16.f4 Nf7 17.Bh4 is rather unclear.
B) 14.o-o h6 15.Bxh6 (15.Be3 must be considered too) Bxh6 16.Qxh6 Bxc2 17.Qd2 (17.Rac1!?) Bf5 18.g4 b5 19.cxb5 axb5 20.gxh5 is again rather unclear. Bladez' line only shows, that for a Black attack the knight is more dangerous than the bishop - so gxh5 is to be preferred. In fact I think White must be happy to trade his worst piece (Nc2) for a dangerous Black attacking piece (Nh5).
This does not mean, that White is better after 9.d5. I still have severe objections against this move; the most important being a very inflexible pawn structure. Next time - but it will take a couple of days - I will look for a decent alternative.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #67 - 09/02/05 at 14:42:07
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We can put it all behind.  Let's just be as professional as we can about it and after the search and discussion of truth, nothing personal.  I really think I should repeat that I feel Black is equal in the Saemisch Bg5 Nc6 line and even more specific, after the comment by castlerock, in the line of 9.d5.  If you think this is not right or if you feel different, show me what ideas and, of course, include the line that present a problem for Black.

I will look at the idea presented by Heinze and discuss a little about it:

1. d4   Nf6  
2. c4   g6  
3. Nc3 Bg7  
4. e4  d6  
5. f3   O-O  
6.Bg5  Nc6
7. Nge2  a6  
8. Qd2 Rb8  
9. d5  Ne5  
10. Nd4 c5  
11. Nc2  Nh5  
12. Be2 f5
13. gxf5

Here is a good ocassion to pinpoint the strength of Black's position.  When you are presented with more than one way to a nice game, your position is a very healthy position.  Black can play here either

13....     gxf5

or

13....     Bxf5

and in my opinion he is not offering material in the first line.

For example, after

13......   gxf5
14.f4 Ng4
15.o-o b5
16.cxb5 axb5
17.Nxb5 Nhf6

"Black has compensation"--according to Hazai.  I think this evaluation is not totally accurate.  Let me explain:  Black is threatening to play Ne4, a strong move that White has only 18.Nbc3 to stop it.  Now Black plays 18... Rxb2 with a fine game, and this renders the phrase "with compensation" inaccurate.  If White does not play 18. Nbc3, he is simply asking for trouble.

Now for the other option--

13....    Bxf5


A)14.g4   Bxc2
15.Qxc2?! [Better is 15.gxh5 Bf5 16.h6 Bh8 (or 16...Bf6) and Black has a fine game.] 15...    Nf4 Black is not playing "just" to equalize anymore.

B)14.0-0 h6
15.Bxh6?! Bxh6
16.Qxh6 Bxc2
17.Qd2 Bf5
18.g4 b5
19.gxf5 Qd7
20.cxb5

[20.fxg6 Nf4 White is in trouble.]

20...      Qxf5
21.bxa6 Nf4

Black has a very serious initiative and is playing to win.
« Last Edit: 09/02/05 at 21:24:15 by BladezII »  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #66 - 09/02/05 at 04:42:13
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Bladez,

Again, what is the point in tinkering lines and letting fritz run over time? From 11...Ne8, you have changed it to 11...Nh5 and now the topography changes. There's absolutely no point. Trying to refute 1.d4 with Kings Indian is laudable Cheesy Just Kidding.


Whoa, Bladez, I guess I pressed some wrong buttons. Comment about refutation of 1.d4 was made absolutely on a lighter vein. "Just kidding" proves that. If you are hurt I'm sorry.

I can't make any serious analysis till sunday and on Sunday I'm planning to look at it and I guess we can take it from there.

As regards reference to fridz, some of the lines did appear fridzy to me. Now I take your explanation at face value. But, if you are dropping a move and replacing it with something else, I would expect that the fact is made known. No one goes back. I understand it could be a slip.

Anyway, I'm sorry again, if I hurt your feelings in some form. BTW I do respect your passionate love for KI. Wink
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #65 - 09/02/05 at 00:27:51
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Oh, oh, I pushed someone's button. That was not even my intention. In stead of getting upset Bladez might react on Hazai's analysis, which seems critical to me. I am curious what Bladez' opinion is.
Remember, I am totally unexperienced with the KID, with both colours. I only wrote down my first impressions. One of them is, that 11...Nh5 looks pretty good.

"At the other hand he clearly has not investigated White's options in full depth."
Also remember, that English is not my first language. I was referring to your post (with 12.f4), not to your homework.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #64 - 09/01/05 at 23:41:18
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First, what is all this talk about Bladez busting out computer analysis?  What is that about?  It is obvious you are assuming I get my info on this....  Fritz ?  I have lots of information, really.  I do use computer for tactical oversights or overwatch of my strategic ideas when covering something not found in other means.  Then again that is a necessity now days for Opening Prep, it seems like.

Second, we must stay on the 9.d5 course until I have helped some see or remember my point that it is OK for Black and he really has no problems here.

"I think, here, 9.d5 is the standard for a short castling, Bg5 Saemisch nerd. h4 doesn't appeal much, unless black tries Nh5, f4." -- Castlerock

Third, I have covered the h4 related idea earlier, in fact in the post previous to castlerock's (the one I quoted above). And please do not make the mistake of assuming I have not looked at something.  You say it is clear that I have not looked at this or that.  This is just a mistake, an assumption.  Just because I have not posted it or treated it in depth does not mean I have not looked at it closely.  If you want to know weather I have looked at something just ask me.  Really I am not holding anything back.  I am not competeting with any of you.  This forum is just a great place to share what I know, even if sometimes I get the feeling that it rubs some people the wrong way.  I might be wrong about that last point and I hope I am.  I am a friendly person and if we ever met  in person lunch, dinner, etc would be on me for the sake of people and of socializing.

Fourth, I would never insinuate that you should discontinue playing this or that line.  You do what you want.  Hey, I play what I want and I do the search for the truth myself and I use as much help as I have access to, but in the end I make my own decision.  People know the Sicilian is not busted and people still play 1.e4.  To say that you are not deterred from playing 1.d4 seems silly.  Really who is saying you should be  ??
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #63 - 09/01/05 at 22:38:38
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In defense of Blade I must say, that I have found four games with 11...Nh5. Black won two; the other two ended in a draw. At the other hand he clearly has not investigated White's options in full depth.
12.Be2 (12.g4 Nxf3+ glad I am not the only one erring without a board in front) f5 13.exf5 gxf5 14.f4 Ng4 15.o-o Summermatter-Nijboer, Luzern 1989. White was somewhat better, though he lost. Now Hazai suggests b5 16.cxb5 axb5 17.Nxb5 Nhf6 with compensation. But I am not sure if a Volgaplayer would be happy with this. At the other hand I do not like that knight on c2. This is also the opinion of Jussupov, who gives 12.Nc2 a questionmark (the moves Rd1 and h5 were included).
White has many other ideas of course. I have looked at 9.h4 h5 10.Nd5 and 9.Rd1 and 10.Nc1
Finally 9.Bh6 has been played with some success, though I would rather have the pawn on c2 in that case.
Before Bladez reacts with his computer analysis: I only state, that White has several ideas to play for a win after 6.Bg5 Nc6. Sure Black has his share of play too, but that does not bother me.
6.Bg5 Nc6 will not stop me switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #62 - 09/01/05 at 20:36:31
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I already address the issue with my original line.  You forget that I pointed out that your suggested line could not be possible.  

Second, Nh4 is just another possibility, another "testament" of the fact that Black is OK in this specific line, the Saemisch 6.Bg5 Nc6.

Third, I have never made a point or even hinted that White is lost or refuted in the KID.   Some back up of that is made in my second point. For you to state that I am insinuating that... to put it mildly, it is silly.  You either dont know at all what the word refute means when applied in chess openings or you are trying to just be silly, I dont know.

Fourth, the Nh4 idea is real and it is something to reckon with.  It is another reason that Black is OK in this line of the Saemisch (Bg5 Nc6).

Fifth, in chess, I dont think that anything is stronger in discussing the truth than cold and hard lines, or if you will, MOVES !   I am ready to champion the cause for Black in Bg5 Nc6.  I have been playing the KID for over 21 years and I have my reasons to believe what I believe in the Bg5 Saemisch.

If you believe that the line I recommend for Black in the Bg5 Nc6 variation is not good enough to get him full equality show your reasons, I ask that you back it up with moves.  Believing in something is not bad but remember, "Faith without works is dead".

If you do not wish to continue the exchange of your point for my point or vice versa, just say so.  I only ask that any other kind of silly abstractions (wrong ones, at least) be eliminated from our discussion or our posts.  

Cheers,

BladezII
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #61 - 09/01/05 at 12:35:20
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What Inn2 said!

Btw Bladez, I look forward to a response in the Averbakh thread.
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #60 - 09/01/05 at 10:50:32
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regarding castlerock's point about fritz: I agree fritz does not quite understand the Samisch (or many variations of the KID for that matter!).

regarding positions which you guys are analysing, am personally quite happy to take white in these types of position. The best for black is probably benoni line, e5/panno setups look suspicious.
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #59 - 09/01/05 at 01:40:29
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Bladez,

Again, what is the point in tinkering lines and letting fritz run over time? From 11...Ne8, you have changed it to 11...Nh5 and now the topography changes. There's absolutely no point. Trying to refute 1.d4 with Kings Indian is laudable Cheesy Just Kidding.

Let me put some perspectives right.

1) Bg5 Saemisch is not just a variation of KI. It's a system. It can be played against KI, Benoni, Grunfeld, Benko, Nimzo, Modern etc. It's move order dependant, of course.

2) There are not many move order issues once you get the setup. In many positions the top 10 candidates will not even have .5 pawn difference in fridz analysis
Wink

That's precisely the reason why you are able to substitue moves in your analysis unlike (let's say) Taimanov Benoni or Bionet.

There's no point in analysing concrete lines beyond 12-15 moves when the middle game plans will be visible.

Hope this helps.

PS. Have you looked at the possiblities of 13.Bh4 13.Be3 and 13.Bh6 in your main line? I haven't. But I have a feeling, if you evaluate them, you'll fully understand what I mean.

PS2. After 11...Nh5 have you thought of 12.g4 instead of 12.f4? That's again thematic. I don't have a board and I may have missed something.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #58 - 08/31/05 at 23:56:07
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Thank you guys for correcting yourselves !  
I also want to thank both of you for being true gentlemen.  I will tackle the idea of White playing f4.  First let me say that if we are playing a Saemisch, White has no choice but to play f3, then f4... that is the Saemisch after all  Grin  

OK, now to the meat and potatoes , the f4 pawn push.  This idea might be thematic, but you might see that this is all it is.  Following the line I recommend in this particular post, Black get's a comfortable game and even poses some problems for WHite:

1. d4   Nf6
2. c4   g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4  d6
5. f3   O-O
6.Bg5  Nc6
7. Nge2  a6
8. Qd2 Rb8
9. d5
after this advance it is fairly easy for Black to build up his position -- the white knight cannot be maintained at d4, and it merely helps him to stabilize
the centre.

9...        Ne5
10. Nd4

[10.Ng3 c6 11.Be2 b5 12.cxb5 cxb5 13.0–0 Bd7 14.h3 Nc4 15.Bxc4 bxc4 16.Be3 Rb4 17.f4 Qb8 18.Rab1 h5 19.e5 Ne8 Black is fighting strong here and his chances are at least as good.]

10...   c5
11. Nc2  Nh5

Main line for no reason:

12. f4

[Variation B: 12. O-O-O b5 13. cxb5 axb5 14. Bxb5 Bd7 15. a4 Bxb5 16. axb5 Qa5 17.Na3 f6 18.Be3 f5 19.exf5 gxf5 20.Bg5 Rb7 Black's position is full of flavor]

[Variation C: 12. Be2 f5 13. f4 Nf7 14. Bxh5 Nxg5  Black is all right and in his type of game and with the two bishops)

Back to Main line:

12...   f6
13. fxe5 fxg5
14. e6 b5
15. cxb5 axb5
16. Nxb5 Bxb2
17. Rb1 Be5

White has serious problems

I believe that in this line Black really gives White no reason to find joy in the f4 idea.  In fact, it looks like the fun is for Black.  Let me know what you think, guys.  

Cheers.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #57 - 08/31/05 at 01:36:00
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Castlerock,

Oh, I agree about the merits of f4, but as a human looking at the moves rather than just the position I was saying f3-f4 would be psychologically harder to play than if White got to do it in one move.   I was just trying to explain (to myself) why it might be missed in the previous post.
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #56 - 08/30/05 at 23:10:06
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Quote:
Still, White playing f4 shortly after playing f3 is a bit counter-intuitive.  It looks good, but it's hard to see.


No, it is not. e5 Knight puts pressure on c4 and it's not a good idea to leave it there. Secondly, without a knight on e5 I don't see how black can get its queenside play going. Thirdly, once there's no queen side play, white has to prepare for central break and f4 is normally played at one point or other and so why not now?

Downside is king side dark squares. Even here so long as white's queen Bishop is on board it may be difficult to for black to exploit this weakness.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #55 - 08/30/05 at 22:19:59
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Boy, Sorry Bladez!  Embarrassed  I placed f4 in the wrong line.  Still, White playing f4 shortly after playing f3 is a bit counter-intuitive.  It looks good, but it's hard to see.
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #54 - 08/30/05 at 21:29:09
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Bladez,

White has already played 11.Be2.  I don't know which line you're thinking of.


Bladez is right. Mea Culpa. After ...Ngf6 it is 14.Be2 when black has nothing useful except 14...Bd7 15.0-0. But the argument is valid. f4 by white is highly thematic since central break thro' is one of the major ideas.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #53 - 08/29/05 at 21:55:27
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Bladez,

White has already played 11.Be2.  I don't know which line you're thinking of.
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #52 - 08/29/05 at 21:45:38
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You have it all wrong.  Please note that if you move 12.f4 instead of Be2, you can not play 0-0.  White can not castle like your move order suggest.  Check it ant try again.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #51 - 08/29/05 at 08:25:01
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On which line is 12. f4 played?  In which line I gave do you insert move 12.f4?


10. Nd4 c5 11. Nc2 Ne8 12. f4
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #50 - 08/28/05 at 13:53:06
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On which line is 12. f4 played?  In which line I gave do you insert move 12.f4?
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #49 - 08/28/05 at 09:26:10
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Bladez II,

Now on to your analysis. I really don't know what it achieves except the fact it conveniently leaves an important thematic continuation for white. 12.f4 Ng4 13.h3 Nf6 14.0-0 the position is more than equal for white. If you go thro' my post on this line, I have already said this is one of the better lines for black, meaning there by other lines are significantly worse Wink

So, imho, your analysis proves nothing. After Nc6, if you have a line which was not posted by me and which gives playable game for black please let me know. I'll know something new. Cheesy
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #48 - 08/28/05 at 00:27:16
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Quote:
What name calling? I thought I was referring to myself when I wrote short castling,Bg5 Saemisch nerd. Re-read the post and understand. Go thro' the analyses as well. As regards merits of your analysis, I'll get back to you later,


My message is edited now, castle.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #47 - 08/27/05 at 17:33:23
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"I think, here, 9.d5 is the standard for a short castling, Bg5 Saemisch nerd. h4 doesn't appeal much, unless black tries Nh5, f4" -- Castlerock

I am just presenting some ideas.  I am not claiming one line or the other to be White's main line.  I am not saying White has a dangerous line for Black;  frankly, Imho, White does not have one in this line of the Saemisch.

I will deal with White's other option of playing 9.d5 with hopes or ideas of castling short:
1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. f3 O-O
6.Bg5 Nc6
7. Nge2  a6
8. Qd2 Rb8 9. d5 [after this advance it is fairly easy for Black to build up his position -- the
white knight cannot be maintained at d4, and it merely helps him to stabilize
the centre.]

9...    Ne5
10. Ng3

or

[. 10. Nd4 c5 11. Nc2 Ne8 12. Be2 f5 13. O-O
Nf7 14. Be3 fxe4 15. fxe4 (15. Nxe4 Bxb2) 15... Nf6 =]

10...  c6
11. Be2

[And Black has 3 ways to answer this and obtain the type of game King's Indian players want from this opening.]

A.  11...   b5 (this will be my main line for no particular reason)

B.  11... Qb6 12. Be3 c5 13. h3 Qb4 14. a3 Qb3
15. Qd1 Qxb2 16. Na4 Qxa1 17. Qxa1 Nh5 ! Black sets the whole board on fire.)

C.  11... Qc7 12. O-O b5 =

Back to main line--(move A)

12. cxb5 cxd5
13. Bxf6  ....

(13. exd5 axb5 14. Bxb5 Qa5 15. a4 Bd7 16. O-O Rfc8 17. Nge4 Nc4 18.Qf2 Bxb5 19. axb5 Qb4 20. Bxf6 exf6 21. Ra4 Qb3 22. Rxc4 Rxc4 23. Nd2 Qxb2 24.Nxc4 Qxc3 {Draw agreed.  Yudasin -- Kalinichenko, 1992, Correspondence} Note that if 25.Nxd6 ?? Black wins with 25... f5)

13...    Bxf6
14. Nxd5 Bg7
15. f4 Ng4
16. Rc1 Bd7
17. O-O Bxb5
18.  Bxg4 Bxf1
19. Nxf1 Rxb2

again, Black has a fine game.
« Last Edit: 08/28/05 at 00:25:24 by BladezII »  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #46 - 08/26/05 at 10:21:35
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MNb

14.N1a2 doesn't appear to be forced 14.Bxa6 Rxa6 15.e2 to trouble c4 thrust appears quite reasonable. Else Ra3 is the only option. As I posted initially, after Nc1, Ra3 is a no brainer, if one knows Seirawan's plans. In both the lines, imho, white definitely has an advantage.

By the way, where is the proverbial initiative of the gambit. I guess, that's the beauty of Bg5. Wink
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #45 - 08/26/05 at 05:31:50
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Dunno. Got to go thro' them. But I know one thing for sure. Ivanchuk - Kasparov is one mad game between two outstanding players. And the lesser mortals will do well not to enter that territory! Wink
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #44 - 08/26/05 at 02:18:37
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 o-o 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 a6 8.Qd2 b5 9.cxb5 Qa5 10.a4 Nbd7 11.Nge2 Nb6 12.Nc1 axb5 (e6 does not convince now: 13.dxe6 Bxe6 14.bxa6 Nc4 15.Bxc4 Bxc4 Müssig-Michalczak, Senden 1999, 16.Nb5; but 12...c4 is worth a try) 13.Bxb5 Ba6 14.N1a2 axb5 15.axb5 and what has White?
a) 15...Rfb8 16.o-o Ne8 17.Bxe7 f6 18.e5 fxe5 looks almost equal.
b) 15...Nh5 16.Rb1 (16.Bxe7 Rfe8 17.Bg5 Bd4 with attacking chances according to Ftacnik) Bd4 17.Bh6 Ivantsjuk-Kasparov, Linares 1997, f5 (Rfb8) 18.Bxf8 Rxf8 (Ftacnik) 19.b4 Qa3 20.bxc5 and Black has given up a lot of wood, but White's king is stuck.
c) 15...Rfe8 16.o-o e6 17.dxe6 Rxe6 18.Rfb1 Drejev-Sokolov, Nussloch 1996, d5! with complications (Dautov). 19.Qc1 seems strong, but is not after dxe4 20.b4 Qa7 21.bxc5 exf3.

So maybe best is 11.Ra3 Qb4  (Nb6 12.Nb1!?) 12.Qc2 (12.Na2 of Jussupov-Wahls, DEU 1993, is another example of Black equalizing by getting the pawn back) c4 13.Bd2 Qc5 14.Nb1 axb5 15.Be3 Marzolo-Forster, Montecatini Terme 1997. Untried is here 11...Rfe8 to prepare e6.
The delayed Wolga Gambit must not be underestimated.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #43 - 08/23/05 at 08:24:25
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Quote:
again, Black is fine

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. f3 O-O
6.Bg5 Nc6
7. Nge2 a6
8. Qd2 Rb8


I think, here, 9.d5 is the standard for a short castling, Bg5 Saemisch nerd. h4 doesn't appeal much, unless black tries Nh5, f4. The best possible line for black, imho, is

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 a6 7.Qd2 Nc6 8.Nge2 Rb8 9.d5 Ne5 10.Nd4 c5 11.Nc2 b5 12.cxb5 axb5 13.Bxb5 Bd7 14.a4 Bxb5 15.Nxb5 Nc4 16.Qe2 Nxb2 17.Ra2 Nd7 18.0-0 Nb6

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 a6 7.Qd2 Nc6 8.Nge2 Rb8 9.d5 Ne5 10.Nd4 c5 11.Nc2 e6 12.f4 Ned7

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 a6 7.Qd2 Nc6 8.Nge2 Rb8 9.d5 Ne5 10.Nd4 c5 11.Nc2 Ne8 12.f4 Ng4 13.h3 Ngf6 14.Be2 Bd7









  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #42 - 08/23/05 at 07:54:46
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Here is the game. Balance moves were not written due to time pressure.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 a6 8.Qd2 b5 9.cxb5 axb5 10.Bxb5 Ba6 11.a4 Qa5 12.Nge2 Bxb5 13.Nxb5 Qxd2+ 14.Bxd2 Nbd7 15.Nec3 Rfb8 16.0-0 Ne8 17.f4 c4 18.Be3 Bxc3 19.bxc3 Nef6 20.Rfe1 Nb6 21.Bxb6 Rxb6 22.Nd4 Rba6 23.Nc6 e6 24.Rad1 Rxa4 25.e5 Nxd5 26.exd6 R4a6 27.Ne7+ Kf8 28.Nxd5 exd5 29.Rxd5 Rd8 30.Red1 f5 31.R5d4 Rc6 32.Kf2 Kf7 33.Rd5 Ke6 34.Re5+ Kf6 35.Red5 h6 36.Kf3 g5 37.h3 Ke6 38.Ke3 Rd7 39.Re5+ Kf6 40.Red5 Ke6 41.g3 Kf6 42.R1d2 Ke6 43.R2d4 Kf6 44.Rd2 Ke6 45.Rd1 Kf6 46.g4 gxf4+ 47.Kxf4 fxg4 48.Kxg4 Ke6 49.Rh5 Rg7+ 50.Kh4 Kd7 51.Rxh6 Rc8 52.Rd4 Rf7 53.Kg3 Rg8+ 54.Rg4 Rd8 55.Kh4 Rc8 56.Rd4 Rg7

  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #41 - 08/23/05 at 00:16:52
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Quote:
Thanks, Castlerock. Now I have something to work with. I had been wondering, whether you would recommend the knight manoeuvre Ng1-e2-c1 or Ng1-h3-f2.


Got back home after three days and as such I need to work on your and Smyslov_Fan's analysis. Over the week end my son played a 2 hr game in delayed Benco, which kept me wondering whether Ng1-e2 is better than than Nh3 even if white gets an opportunity. Of course, the opponent was very co-operative.

What he did was this. He exchanged early on b5 and shifted the Bishop to a6 before Nbd7. My son waited and did not commit Ne2-c1. After ...Bxb5 Nxd5 Queens were exchanged, white darksquare Bishop was shifted to c3 and exchanged with the monster on g7. He did not contest the a-pawn. Instead shifted the b5 Knight to c6 via d4, and preared central break with f4 and when the opponent doubled the rook on a file and took the a4 pawn he simply moved the a rooks to d file and it soon became a winning ending. I'll post the game today evening.

This taught me that, black should simply find ways develop and it is not easy. Nbd7 invites cheapo tactics of Bxd7 Nxd7 Bxe7 rook moves Bxd6, 3 pawns up.

To play ...Na6, black has to exchange on b5, it is here retaining the Knight on e2 can be handy. Play Nc3-b5 exchange on c7 and play Ne2-c3-b5 to close all files till you improve the position.

These are initial thoughts and I'll be working with my son over next few days on this and I'll post the results for further discussion.

Mean while MNb's and Smyslov_Fan's analyses are good starting points and I should thank them for it.

Smiley
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #40 - 08/22/05 at 23:27:14
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"The object of a gambit is not to regain the sacrificed material, but to gain the better position!"
As I completely agree with this, I have offered line b2 as an alternative to line b1.
In fact my computer agrees, that line b1 is slightly better for White  Tongue. The evaluation was entirely mine, as I do not see a way to play for a win as White in this almost symmetrical pawn structure.

Still software is useful now and then. Of course I have considered (line d) 16...Nfxd5 as it is a well known tactic. But it fails to 17.Rc1 Nf6 18.e5! and White clearly gets the upper hand.

I still think, that Black has sufficient compensation at the end of line e. My computer disagrees of course, but I remember well how nice it was to play a knight to d3. Concerning central pawn play, I must point out that 16.f4 gives the pawn back due to Qb6+. Having said this, I must admit, that I have not found a way to deal with 16.Nb5 (yet?).
Of course 11.Nh3 Nb6 12.Nf2 e6 is the true gambiteer's way to go ...

Smyslov_Fan, could you give some sample lines with 11.Nge2 ? You see, I have found some counterplay for Black here too. And I would really like to have a clue, how to play against the delayed Benkö as White (not with Nh3 I already have decided).
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #39 - 08/22/05 at 01:52:10
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MNb wrote:   Quote:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 a6 7.Qd2 c5 8.d5 b5 9.cxb5 Qa5 10.a4 Nbd7 11.Nh3 axb5 12.Bxb5 Ba6 (in stead of Ne5)
a)13.Ra3 Nb6 (Rfb8!?) 14.o-o Bxb5 (Nc4!?) 15.axb5 Qb4 is equal, Reyes Najera-Pupo, Matanzas 1995.
b)13.o-o Rfb8 14.Nf2

b1)14...Bxb5 15.Nxb5 Qxd2 16.Bxd2 Nb6 15.b3 c4 18.bxc4 Nxc4 19.Bc3 Nb6 winning the pawn back. [My emphasis]

b2)14...Nb6 15.Qe2 Chepovetsky-Baranov, Simferopol 1996, Bxb5 16.Qxb5 Qb4 again about equal.
c)13.Bxd7 Nxd7 14.Bxe7 Rfb8 15.Nd1 Qc7 16.Bg5 Ne5 17.Nhf2 Nc4 is a fine example of saccing pawn e7.
d)13.Nf2 Bxb5 (Rfb8 14.Bc6!) 14.Nxb5 Nb6 15.Qxa5 Rxa5 16.b3 c4 equal.
e)13.Bxa6 Rxa6 14.o-o Rb8 15.Qc2 c4 with lasting compensation; White has holes on b3 and d3.
f)13.Bc6 Rab8 14.Nb5 might be best, though I see Black's knight coming to e5.  


[size=.5](The following is done the old-fashioned way, without the use of chess engines)[/size]

I love concrete analysis like this, but I am constantly amazed by defenders of gambits who write about all this compensation they get for a pawn, and then throw in a line in which they win back the pawn and celebrate it as if they are now even.  Even Mark Tseitlin in his The Budapest Gambit for the Tournament Player fell into this trap several times.

The object of a gambit is not to regain the sacrificed material, but to gain the better position!  In the case of "line b1", Black may be able to draw due to the lack of chances to stir things up, but White still has a slight edge.

I agree with much of your analysis, showing the Ng1 should go to e2 to avoid most of the problems you point out. Line d) ends with "16...c4 equal".  I think 16...Nfd5! (16...Nbd5?! allows 17.Nd6!?)is even better unless I'm missing something (White still hasn't connected his rooks in this line!).

I'm not convinced by your comment that Black has lasting compensation in line "e" just because there are some light-square holes in White's queen side.  After all, White is still a pawn up and can begin his thematic central push because so many of Black's pieces are on the q-side.  I'm not saying White is winning here, but I wouldn't mind playing White (except I don't know what that N is doing on h3.) Wink

Line f looks like White has completely forgotten all opening principles and has decided to live off one-move threats.  The B on c6 is more a target than a weapon, and it can't even get back to b5 very easily.

So, lines "b1" and  "e" look the best for White but I still don't see why I should put my Knight on h3 rather than e2.  

Again, thanks for the concrete lines to review!
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #38 - 08/21/05 at 22:11:51
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Thanks, Castlerock. Now I have something to work with. I had been wondering, whether you would recommend the knight manoeuvre Ng1-e2-c1 or Ng1-h3-f2. Let me play advocate of the devil and see, if I still understand something of Benkö type positions. It has been a long time.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 a6 7.Qd2 c5 8.d5 b5 9.cxb5 Qa5 10.a4 Nbd7 11.Nh3 axb5 12.Bxb5 Ba6 (in stead of Ne5)
a)13.Ra3 Nb6 (Rfb8!?) 14.o-o Bxb5 (Nc4!?) 15.axb5 Qb4 is equal, Reyes Najera-Pupo, Matanzas 1995.
b)13.o-o Rfb8 14.Nf2
b1)14...Bxb5 15.Nxb5 Qxd2 16.Bxd2 Nb6 15.b3 c4 18.bxc4 Nxc4 19.Bc3 Nb6 winning the pawn back.
b2)14...Nb6 15.Qe2 Chepovetsky-Baranov, Simferopol 1996, Bxb5 16.Qxb5 Qb4 again about equal.
c)13.Bxd7 Nxd7 14.Bxe7 Rfb8 15.Nd1 Qc7 16.Bg5 Ne5 17.Nhf2 Nc4 is a fine example of saccing pawn e7.
d)13.Nf2 Bxb5 (Rfb8 14.Bc6!) 14.Nxb5 Nb6 15.Qxa5 Rxa5 16.b3 c4 equal.
e)13.Bxa6 Rxa6 14.o-o Rb8 15.Qc2 c4 with lasting compensation; White has holes on b3 and d3.
f)13.Bc6 Rab8 14.Nb5 might be best, though I see Black's knight coming to e5.

These lines are typical for Black playing the Benkö. First of all Black completes his development and increases pressure on White's queenside. Only then Black decides what to do with his knights.

Black has even a sharper option: 11.Nh3 Nb6 12.Nf2 e6 (I do not like axb5 here, as Black has already committed himself to Nb6) 13.dxe6 Bxe6 is a dangerous try, because of 14.Qxd6 Nfd5 15.exd5 Bxc3+ 16.Ke2 Nxd5 17.bxc3 Nxc3+ 18.Ke1 Bd5!

"I need lot of convincing to accept that Benko set up is playable comfortably, against Bg5 Saemisch."
The main goal of the gambiteer is usually not comfortable play, but messing things up.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #37 - 08/20/05 at 15:42:34
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again, Black is fine

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. f3 O-O
6.Bg5 Nc6
7. Nge2 a6
8. Qd2 Rb8
9. h4 h5
10. O-O-O b5
11. Bh6 e5
12. Bxg7 Kxg7
13. dxe5 dxe5
14. Qg5 Qe7
15. Nd5 Nxd5
16. cxd5 Qxg5+
17. hxg5 Na5
18.Nc3 Nb7  ....Nd6  ....c6

OR

A)18. b3 c6
19. Ng3 Bd7
20. Kd2 (white has idea or Rc1) ....Nb7
21. Be2 Nd6

Grin


If you want to use the bold feature then the text or moves are placed between the (b) and the (/b).

For example: (b)  1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. f3 O-O
6.Bg5 Nc6
7. Nge2 a6
8. Qd2 Rb8
9. h4 h5
10. O-O-O b5 (/b)

Simply replace the brackets in the above example with [ ] and your'e all set.

Toppy Grin 
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #36 - 08/20/05 at 10:59:11
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again, Black is fine

1. d4 Nf6
2. c4 g6
3. Nc3 Bg7
4. e4 d6
5. f3 O-O
6.Bg5 Nc6

[color=Blue][/color]The benefit of ...Nc6 is that Black is able to play ...e5 anyway or the Benko type positions with much more potency and effect, in some lines, he is able to play both moves.  I am almost certain that this is the problem for the whole line starting with 6.Bg5.  The ball is on white's court to find something since Black is really just fine.  For example:

7. Nge2 a6
8. Qd2 Rb8
9. h4 h5
10. O-O-O b5
11. Bh6 e5
12. Bxg7 Kxg7
13. dxe5 dxe5
14. Qg5 Qe7
15. Nd5 Nxd5
16. cxd5 Qxg5+
17. hxg5 Na5
18.Nc3 Nb7  ....Nd6  ....c6

OR

A)18. b3 c6
19. Ng3 Bd7
20. Kd2 (white has idea of Rc1) ....Nb7
21. Be2 Nd6

Grin
« Last Edit: 08/22/05 at 00:37:40 by BladezII »  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #35 - 08/20/05 at 02:05:09
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But for me 6. Nge2 is still more flexible for the coming benoni structure.As a matter of principle isn't it better to have Nge2-g3 with Be2 in place first, before Qd2 (which doesn't seem terribly urgent)? I can always go Bg5 and Qd2 later on. White can surely arrange e4-e5 much faster with 6. Nge2 than 6. Bg5?


Yes on both counts. Its a matter of taste really. To me king side is sufficiently water tight even without a knight on King side and as such knight will do well to arrest queen side play. That's Seirawan's idea and some how I like it.

As regards, 7.Qd2 it's true king side pieces can be developed first. But 7.Qd2 has lot of utilities. For starters, repertoire building becomes much easier. Second, it works as a deterrent to an early h6. It's not really a deterrent because of Nxe4, but, like white, black also doesn't want murky game. Third, it signals 0-0-0 to Black which is hardly the intention. Having said all these, it is a matter of taste, really.

Yes. Reaching e5 with Nge2 is faster but white in Bg5 Saemish wants black to commit to queen side play and counter him there, first. This is just my thought after reading your question, though.



  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #34 - 08/20/05 at 00:15:32
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Hi castlerock, thanks to you I have spent an evening looking at the 6. Bg5 Samisch KID/Benoni! It is interesting indeed and Ward also thinks so in his Samisch book.

But for me 6. Nge2 is still more flexible for the coming benoni structure.As a matter of principle isn't it better to have Nge2-g3 with Be2 in place first, before Qd2 (which doesn't seem terribly urgent)? I can always go Bg5 and Qd2 later on. White can surely arrange e4-e5 much faster with 6. Nge2 than 6. Bg5? I agree with you on one thing though, the Samisch Benoni is not as harmless as most Black players think!
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #33 - 08/18/05 at 16:16:46
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It does echo (dialectal) German, which has expressions like "Das Kind gehoert bestraft" (literally "the child belongs punished") for "the child needs/ought to be punished."

Still off-topic, but that reminds me:  I wonder if anybody has ever done a study on the relative popularity of different chess openings in various countries.  For example, I have the (admittedly unscientific) impression that a lot of younger players from Germanic-speaking countries (like Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands, though maybe not including English-speaking countries) play the French.
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #32 - 08/18/05 at 13:24:41
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That delayed Benko looks suspiciously like the Blumenfeld (which, see).  Don't you just love the way English follows Latin forms even when they don't make any sense?!  It took almost five hundred years for us to realise that the English infinitive is formed by two words, not one.  That realization means that "to boldly go" is at least as correct as "to go boldly".  Ok, enough ramblings on English grammar.  School starts tomorrow, can't you tell? ???   Tongue


Assuming that the King's English is somewhat related to the King's Indian, I will rejoin you on the subject of English grammar.

I am somewhat impatient with notions of correctness in English, since there are so many registers of English speech, not to mention regional variants.  Correctness is a fine notion for non-English-speakers, but otherwise "correct English" is a Victorian conception that should give way to effective, and the latter, of course, depends on the audience. 

Here in central Ohio, nobody says "The barn needs to be painted" or "The lawn needs to be mown."  We say, "The barn needs painted" and, "The lawn needs mowed".   Anything else would sound funny.  I'm not sure, but I think that this may echo a German construction -- there was a big ethnic German immigration here, complete with German-language newspapers, German churches and even German street names, but this culture was lost after anti-German riots in 1917.

Having said all that, I do think that the split infinitive has a clumsy sound.  "To boldly go" -- blah!   If the intention is to emphasize "boldly," Boldly to go is much more resonant, and a much better utterance for a Star Captain!
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #31 - 08/18/05 at 11:14:18
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This is the lost game. He lost trying to avoid a draw.
This was against a 2137 player

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 Nbd7 7.Nh3 h6 8.Be3 c5 9.d5 Nb8 10.Nf2 e6 11.Qd2 Kh7 12.Be2 exd5 13.cxd5 Re8 14.0-0 a6 15.a4 b6 16.f4 Qc7 17.Bf3 Nbd7 18.e5 dxe5 19.d6 Qa7 20.Bxa8 Qxa8 21.Nd3 Ng4 22.fxe5 Nxe3 23.Qxe3 Nxe5 24.Nxe5 Rxe5 25.Qd2 Rg5 26.Rxf7 Bh3 27.Qxg5 hxg5 28.gxh3 Kg8 29.Rxg7+ Kxg7 30.d7 Qd8 31.Rd1 Kh6 32.Ne4 c4 33.Rd5 Kg7 34.Nxg5 Kf6 35.h4 b5 36.axb5 axb5 37.Rd6+ Ke7 38.Ne6 Kxd6 39.Nxd8 Kxd7 40.Nf7 Ke6 41.Ng5+ Kf5 42.Nf7 Ke6 43.Nh6 b4 44.Ng4 c3 45.bxc3 b3 0-1

  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #30 - 08/18/05 at 09:46:54
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Here is a game played by son against a 2085 opponent. It is a good example of what happens to Black if passive play is resorted to.


1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 Na6 7.Qd2 c5 8.d5 Nc7 9.a4 b6 10.Nge2 a6 11.Nc1 Bd7 12.Rb1 b5 13.b3 Rb8 14.Bd3 bxa4 15.bxa4 Na8 16.0-0 Qa5 17.Nb3 Qc7 18.a5 Rb7 19.Bc2 Rfb8 20.Be3 Be8 21.Kh1 Rb4 22.Qd3 Nd7 23.f4 Qc8 24.Nd2 Rxb1 25.Rxb1 Rxb1+ 26.Ncxb1 Qc7 27.Nb3 Qb7 28.Bd2 Nf8 29.Bc3 Qd7 30.Bxg7 Kxg7 31.h3 Nc7 32.e5 h5 33.Qe3 Kg8 34.N1d2 Nh7 35.Ne4 Qd8 36.Qg3 Kh8 37.exd6 exd6 38.f5 gxf5 39.Qxd6 Qh4 40.Qe5+ f6 41.Qg3 Qxg3 42.Nxg3 f4 43.Ne2 f3 44.gxf3 Ng5 45.Kg2 Bf7 46.h4 Nh7 47.Bxh7 Kxh7 48.Nxc5 Nxd5 49.cxd5 Bxd5 50.Nf4 Bc4 51.Nxh5 Kg6 52.Nf4+ Kf5 53.Nfd3 Bb5 54.Nb4 Kf4 55.Ncxa6 Be2 56.Nd5+ Ke5 57.Nab4 f5 58.a6 Bxa6 59.Nxa6 Kxd5 60.Kg3 Ke5 61.h5 1-0

Got to go. Will post an excellent loss by him later.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #29 - 08/18/05 at 09:32:11
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I'll post as I keep studying. Some sample lines for delayed Benko

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 a6 7.Qd2 c5 8.d5 b5 9.cxb5 Qa5 10.a4 Nbd7 11.Nh3 axb5 12.Bxb5 Ne5 13.Nf2 Ba6 14.0-0 Rfb8 15.Qc2 Bxb5 16.Nxb5


1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 a6 7.Qd2 c5 8.d5 b5 9.cxb5 Qa5 10.a4 Nbd7 11.Nh3 axb5 12.Bxb5 Ne5 13.Nf2 Ba6 14.0-0 Rfb8 15.Qc2 Nc4 16.b3 Na3 17.Rxa3 Bxb5 18.Nxb5 Rxb5

I really don't see how f-pawn can be left undefended. Either drive the Bishop with h6 or play e6. I love white pieces here

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 a6 7.Qd2 c5 8.d5 b5 9.cxb5 Qa5 10.a4 Nbd7 11.Nh3 axb5 12.Bxb5 Nb6 13.Nf2 Ba6 14.Bxa6 Rxa6 15.0-0 Rb8 16.Qe2 Covering the c4 square is imperative here 16...c4 17.Rfb1 Ne8 18.Bxe7 f6 19.e5 fxe5 20.Nfe4

I tried Ne8 here. It doesn't work

10...Bd7 also doesn't work

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 a6 7.Qd2 c5 8.d5 b5 9.cxb5 Qa5 10.a4 Bd7 11.Ra3 Long live Seirawan!

So unless I get concrete lines to the contrary, my belief is that white is better in Benko set up in this move order. The difference as I understand, is the Bishop on g5 and the fact that unlike Benko, here black doesn't get a free run along a6-f1 diagonal initially.

Now Qb6

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 a6 7.Qd2 c5 8.d5 b5 9.cxb5 Qb6 10.a4 axb5 11.Bxb5 Na6 12.Nge2 Nc7 13.Bc6 Bb7 14.a5 Qa7 15.Bxb7 Qxb7 16.Na4 Rfb8 17.0-0 Nfe8 18.Bxe7 f6 19.e5 fxe5

Here too e7 weakness is underlined. I need lot of convincing to accept that Benko set up is playable comfortably, against Bg5 Saemisch.








  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #28 - 08/18/05 at 08:00:04
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Concerning the weakness on e7: Black has rooks on a8 and b8 and plays Ne8, intending Nc7-b5.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #27 - 08/18/05 at 06:38:32
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I took a glance to a few games and I am afraid this is simply incorrect.


May be. I need to check on this. I was and am posting from the office. I'm ahead of America by 12 hrs! It's not easy to shut the Bishop with f6, if rook is on f8 you gain a tempo and I'm sure you are assuming d6 square is also controlled. Without a board, I'm unable to visualise how.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #26 - 08/18/05 at 05:05:03
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"So long as you have some thing up your slieve for 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 and if you have a QI repertoire, you can straight away start playing."
It seems logical to me, to play f3 and Bg5 against the Benoni too. Moreover 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 is a problem, as I want to play the Exchange Variation with the knight to e2 ...
I am looking forward to the games.

@Smyslov_Fan: for me holiday starts tomorrow  Tongue

"Delyed Benko is not some thing to worry about because of e7 weakness - another virtue of Bg5. Queen cannot move out and f6 Knight cannot come to d7 without strengthening e7 with Re8. So white has time."
I took a glance to a few games and I am afraid this is simply incorrect. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 o-o 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 a6 8.Qd2 b5 9.cxb5 Qa5 (so the Queen surely can move out) 10.a4 or 9...Nbd7 10.Nh3 Qa5 The annotated games from chessbase all are won by White but show improvements for Black ...
As I have played the Benkö myself, I can tell you, that Black often can leave the e-pawn unprotected, answering Bxe7 with f6 and the bishop on e7 is shut in. Comments from the experts?
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #25 - 08/17/05 at 23:29:03
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As soon as I know how to deal with the Nimzo-Indian, I will try 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 too.

How about a kind of delayed Benkö Gambit, something like 6...c5 7.d5 a6 intending 8...b5 ?


So long as you have some thing up your slieve for 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 and if you have a QI repertoire, you can straight away start playing.

Delyed Benko is not some thing to worry about because of e7 weakness - another virtue of Bg5. Queen cannot move out and f6 Knight cannot come to d7 without strengthening e7 with Re8. So white has time.

Best plan against ...c6,...a6 appears to be Bd3 followed by Nge2 and 0-0 and try to get Rb8,b4 quickly. I'll post something in detail when I get back home and yes, I'll post some games as well.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #24 - 08/17/05 at 22:27:57
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That delayed Benko looks suspiciously like the Blumenfeld (which, see).  Don't you just love the way English follows Latin forms even when they don't make any sense?!  It took almost five hundred years for us to realise that the English infinitive is formed by two words, not one.  That realization means that "to boldly go" is at least as correct as "to go boldly".  Ok, enough ramblings on English grammar.  School starts tomorrow, can't you tell? ???   Tongue
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #23 - 08/17/05 at 21:57:27
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As soon as I know how to deal with the Nimzo-Indian, I will try 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 too. Indeed I intend to play the Sämisch 6.Bg5 against both the KI and the Benoni. And I even found a transposition via the Grünfeld! There are some games, in which White breaks through with f4 and e5 anyway.
So yes, castlerock, I am interested in sample games, especially with 6...a6 and 7...c6.
How about a kind of delayed Benkö Gambit, something like 6...c5 7.d5 a6 intending 8...b5 ?
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #22 - 08/17/05 at 04:01:36
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[quote author=Michael Ayton  link=1110210262/20#21 date=1123907378]Interesting suggestion, castlerock. Supposing Black realises he can't play 6 ...e5, what are the pitfalls awaiting him after 6 ...c5 (or 6 ...a6 first?)? What lines should White play to help him tumble in?
[/quote]

Let me try.

A. 6...c5 7.d5 e6 8.exd5 cxd5 8.Qd5 is the most critical line. ECO code A65. Chesspublishing has a problem. Technically it is Benoni but you get it in KID Saemisch move order more often.

The idea is to keep the king side water tight, restrict black's play on the queenside and generate play on the queen side. Or prepare for e5 break.

This line has a psychological advantage. Half the time, KID players at lower level don't know what to do if they cannot get their e5 and f5 going. Many a time they wait for you to strangle them, slowly.

This is precisely the idea of the line, yet retaining the dynamic of Saemisch. I have posted a couple of games earlier in the thread played at 2000 levels.

Anyway, getting back to the critical line if black plays 8...Nbd7 9.Nh3 followed by 10.Nf2 is a standard plan. I simply love the magestic stead on f2 over protecting e4 and g4 squares and ever ready to jump to d3 to support e5 break.

If black doesn't play 8...Nbd7 but instead prefers 8...Qa5 or 8...Re8 or any other move, we have our first dilemma in this line. 9.Ne2 or 9.Bd3 will be the normal developing moves. I prefer 9.Ne2. But the knight has to move out immediately otherwise defense of b5 square will be compromised. Remember, curtailing black's queenside play is of atmost importance. Even castling comes later

So 10.Ng3 or 10.Nc1 becomes a compulsory move. Both are good but I personally like Seirawan's plan of Nc1. Searching for Seirawan's A65 games might teach this line better than anything else

Now on to Black's plans. Often the Bishop on g5 so irritating, black plays h6 before catling and plays Kh7 after castling. But this is not needed. At around 9th move black can play h6. Actually, Gods guard the h-pawn. Bxh6 Bxh6 Qxh6 invites ...Nxe4 (after ...Qa5) and the play will be clumpsy and white has to work over time for equality ???
So it is always better to bring the Bishop back to e3.

Next danger for white is a1 rook.With g7 Bishop looking at it, black Queen on a5, White King in the center and Knight on c1, after ...a6 a4, ...b5 cannot be stopped. Here again, Seirawan's preferred Ra3 is an excellent solution. Knight on c1 can go to a2 to support b4 or d3 to support e5, depending on situation.

After all these neutralising moves, it is time for castling after Be2. As you will notice Castling happens very late. There is a major advantage. If black tries ...h6,...Nh5,...f5 and king side pawn storm, we can consider keeping the king in the centre and for standard Saemisch attack with g4,h4 etc

I think I pretty much covered the opening strategies of this most critical line of Bishop g5 Saemisch. Of couse, only to the extent I understand So correct me where ever I went wrong. I have a special passion for this line.

Second most critical line is 6...c6,7...a6 with the idea of ...b5. Other standard KID plans such as ...Na6,...c6, ...c6, cxd5 (without ...e6), ...Nc6 etc etc are also possible. They are all covered under E81. I'll post about them later, if there is sufficient interest.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #21 - 08/13/05 at 04:29:38
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Interesting suggestion, castlerock. Supposing Black realises he can't play 6 ...e5, what are the pitfalls awaiting him after 6 ...c5 (or 6 ...a6 first?)? What lines should White play to help him tumble in?

Incidentally, the [Bg5] Smyslov System is examined in one of the games in the most recent (June) update!
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #20 - 08/12/05 at 03:34:11
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If you have difficulty defending the big center as White in the KID, but you like Grunfeld positions as White, you can play the Smyslov System.  It isn't really a system so much as an idea of getting out of the opening alive without giving Black too much.  Basically, White plays 1d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 and if 3...Bg7, White can wimp out and play 4.Bf4.  White scores quite well in practical games against relatively low rated opponents.  It won't do much against a strong (2300+) player, but even then you won't be lost out of the opening.


My apologies Smyslov_fan. This already answers & clarifies my queries. I was too shocked or surprised to think about anything else when I saw 'Smyslov system' against the KID that i didnt read carefully the rest. Mea maxima culpa! Sorry once again! Embarrassed
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #19 - 08/12/05 at 03:05:27
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Hmm...

Yeah, Smyslov did indeed play an early Bg5 and e3 against the KID quite often.  He even scored some successes with it, so I guess that probably is the official "Smyslov System".  But in the late rounds of Zurich, he essayed 4.Bf4 and made comfortable draws.  I wonder if both Bf4 and Bg5 couldn't be credited to Smyslov?  After all, he was one of the most inventive players of all time, judging by the number of valid variations that are named after him!


BTW:  Toppy, White to play 1.d4! avoids Fischer's famous blunder!  We aren't all Ostap Bender students here.  Wink Even Fischer began to see the light when he would play the QGD (by transposition)!  Grin
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #18 - 08/12/05 at 01:28:07
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I still feel 6.Bg5 Saemisch is a nice way to combat Kings Indian. Light on theory and half the time KID kid doesn't know what to do!

Apparently it has not caught the imagination of many 1.d4 players.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #17 - 08/11/05 at 22:06:33
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That's funny Top
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #16 - 08/11/05 at 21:40:27
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Maybe the best way to combat the King's Indian is 1.e4.

Tops Grin
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #15 - 08/11/05 at 10:03:38
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@ Smyslov_fan

I'm a little confused here:

1) There is a Smyslov system against the KID??? what's the move order like?? A brief explanation of the basic idea would be nice if possible.

or are you talking about:

2) The Smyslov System Complex in the Grunfeld?? I thought it was for the black side where black plays (vaguely recalling) something to do with a certain B-KN5 followed by a KN-Q2 move order.?? The way you wrote seems to suggest that its for white but  applying the same white vs grunfeld idea to the KID instead. (hence not found in KID but Grunfeld books). Am I understanding you correctly???

  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #14 - 08/11/05 at 03:20:48
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As I understand it, the Smyslov System does not involve Bf4 but rather Bg5, followed by e3 (rather than e4).  It is seen as rather innocuous, but it is not without a certain element of danger for the second player, who can easily be tempted into reckless loosening lunges to 'punish' White for his peaceable approach.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #13 - 08/10/05 at 21:59:03
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If you have difficulty defending the big center as White in the KID, but you like Grunfeld positions as White, you can play the Smyslov System.  It isn't really a system so much as an idea of getting out of the opening alive without giving Black too much.  Basically, White plays 1d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 and if 3...Bg7, White can wimp out and play 4.Bf4.  White scores quite well in practical games against relatively low rated opponents.  It won't do much against a strong (2300+) player, but even then you won't be lost out of the opening.
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #12 - 08/06/05 at 01:10:34
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The saemisch is probably the sharpest way of battling the KID these days. The f3 move usually serves as a pivot for the g4,h4 pawn storm on black's positon after q-side castling., ala yugoslav attack in the dragon, or english attack on the Najdorf. This ususally stifles black's thematic K-side attack starting after f5. Black's alternate plan woud be to create q-side play with the Byrne system ...a6, ...c6 ...b5 or the Panno ....Nc6, ...a6,....Rb1,....b5 which will allow q-side play or center play. Play is complex for both sides in the saemisch.

For something a little more 'subdued' the fianchtto system would be a good system. But black also has the potential of storming the q-side. I remember this game by Bronstein which i saw eons ago where he stormed the q-side with his a-pawn and pieces, sucessfully opening up the a  & b files & finally penetrating with his rooks. White's plan is to strengthen his centre and look for some play on the K-side. or the centre later on.

Alternatively there are systems which restrain certain moves eg the Averbach with 6.Bg5 to restrain the 6...e5 move. Or the Petrosian system with 7.d5 & 8 Bg5 to blunt the effect of black's eventual f5.

In the main line...white allows black's k-side push whilst storming the Q-side with the Bayonet attack.

Of course there is the 4 pawns attack - probably the most overtly aggressive system against black. The saemisch was supposedly a more 'subdued' version of the 4 -pawns. Since you are not looking for something to aggressive, I shall not recommend this to you.

Whatever the system you choose ......as long as you are playing against the KID you cannot help but be prepared to play sharply as well unfortunately. There's really no such thing as a quiet positional white game against the KID.

However if at the end of the day.. if you decide that play against the KID is too sharp for your liking..... than it would have to be an anti-indian - Tromp or Torre. Being a KID player I REALLY hate those anti -indians.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #11 - 07/22/05 at 06:51:56
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I myself play the fianchetto variation. Not because i am a positional player but also because when i started looking at the kings indian i wanted to know what to play against it. I looked at a lot of games from David Bronstien from both sides. He was the pioneer of this system and if you are looking to see both sides one must check out the games of the classical interpratation.
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #10 - 03/09/05 at 03:59:12
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Thanks a million for the games Castlerock, I will have a look at them tonight.
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #9 - 03/09/05 at 00:54:26
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Quote:
If you are interested in the Samisch set-up, you could do worse than think about f3 in response to most Indians, including the Nimzo.


a great idea of course, and it's worked well for me. like i said elsewhere, it's a very thematic and logical repertoire.
The only problem is, white appears to have no 'theoretical' advantage in certain variations (e.g. nimzo or 3. f3 grunfeld). then again, which opening guarantees white an advantage?

About the samisch, i would describe it as a 'positionally'- aggresive system (aside from the crude king side hacks). White's main lines usually involve a stifling of black's counterplay. Black feels obliged to act violently for fear of strangulation. In this sense, the samisch is quite similar other f3 systems: Black is usually the one generating all the play because if he sits still he is going to get squashed.
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #8 - 03/09/05 at 00:52:48
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Another couple of games. First is a smooth win. Second is a murder before suicide Sad

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 O-O 6. Bg5 c5 7. d5 e6 8. Qd2
exd5 9. cxd5 Re8 10. a4 Nbd7 11. Nh3 Ne5 12. Nf2 Bd7 13. Be2 Bc8 14. O-O h5
15. Rae1 b6 16. h3 Bb7 17. f4 Ned7 18. Bc4 Qc7 19. e5 dxe5 20. d6 Qc6 21.
Nfe4 exf4 22. Rxf4 Nxe4 23. Bxf7+ Kh7 24. Nxe4 Rf8 25. Be7 Ne5 26. Ng5+ Kh8
27. Rf6 Nc4 28. Qf2 Ne5 29. Rxe5


1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 Nbd7
7.Nh3 c5 8.d5 Ne5 9.Nf2 Qa5 10.Qd2 a6 11.Be2 Rb8 12.a4
Bd7 13.0-0 Qb4 14.b3 Bc8 15.a5 b5 16.f4 Ned7 17.Rfb1
Ne8 18.Rc1 bxc4 19.Bxc4 Nef6 20.Nd3 Nxe4 21.Qe1 Bd4+
22.Kf1 Bxc3 23.Qxe4 Qb7 24.Rxc3 Re8 25.Rcc1 Nf8 26.Qf3
Bf5 27.Kg1 Qa7 28.Bh4 Bxd3 29.Qxd3 Nd7 30.Bf2 Nf6
31.Rab1 Qd7 32.Bxa6 Ra8 33.Bb5 Qd8 34.Bxe8 Qxe8 35.a6
Qc8 36.Ra1 Qb8 37.Ra4 Ng4 38.Bg3 Qb6 39.f5?? c4+
40.Kf1 cxd3 41.Rxg4
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #7 - 03/09/05 at 00:36:09
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Hi King,

Sorry for the delay in posting the game. I couldn't go near the compute when I got back home. Here is a game with Benoni set up. I'll post one more later.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Bg5 c5
7.d5 Re8 8.Qd2 e6 9.Nge2 exd5 10.cxd5 Nbd7 11.Nc1 Rb8
12.a4 a6 13.Be2 Qb6 14.Be3 Qc7 15.0-0 c4 16.a5 b5
17.axb6 Nxb6 18.N1a2 a5 19.Nb5 Qd8 20.Nac3 a4 21.Nd4
Bd7 22.Kh1 Qe7 23.Bf2 Qf8 24.Be3 Re7 25.Rfd1 Qe8
26.Bf4 Nc8 27.Rac1 Nh5 28.Bg5 f6 29.Bh4 Qf8 30.f4 Bh6
31.Bxh5 gxh5 32.Qf2 Rf7 33.Rb1 f5 34.Ne6 Bxe6 35.dxe6
Rg7 36.Nd5 Rbb7 37.e7 Nxe7 38.Bxe7 Rbxe7 39.Nxe7+ Rxe7
40.Rxd6 Rxe4 41.Qg3+ Kh8 42.Rbd1 Re8 43.h3 Qe7 44.Rxh6
Blunders and resigns
  

CastleRock
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #6 - 03/08/05 at 12:50:16
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If you are interested in the Samisch set-up, you could do worse than think about f3 in response to most Indians, including the Nimzo.  Hans Berliner's The System advocates this repertoire.  His notion of a "system" is a little skewed, but the chess is good and is worth a look.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #5 - 03/08/05 at 07:10:23
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Thanks, I am prepared to play 3.Nc3 so this is no problem
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #4 - 03/08/05 at 06:58:10
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Yes. That’s one thing I forgot to mention in my previous post. It is one stop stop for Benoni-Kings Indian complex. But you have to be prepared to play Nimzo if you don’t want to learn any other system for Benoni. For example with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 Benoni can be steered away from f3,Bg5 systems. In which case palliser’s recommendation for Benoni is pretty close (Bf4).

I’ll post a couple of games later today.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #3 - 03/08/05 at 06:53:32
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Many positional d4-players choose the fianchetto variation.
  

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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #2 - 03/08/05 at 06:31:52
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Thanks for the advice.  Your suggestion is particularly interesting as I have posted a similiar request on the Benoni section, and Alumbrado suggested the f3 systems provided I was prepared to play the Samisch against the KID!

I would be interested in the games you mention.
  
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Re: How to combat the King's Indian?
Reply #1 - 03/08/05 at 06:21:18
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Oh well, nice to know there’s someone like me. I have been a 1.d4 player all along, though.

My suggestion would be Samisch with Bg5 instead of Be3 and castling short. Idea is to castle short, keep the kingside tight and play on the queen side and/or center. Lines are not sharp and there is no move order issue.

Generally white moves are, d4, c4, Nc3, e4,f3, Bg5, Qd2, Ne2, Nc1, Be2 and 0-0. If black blocks c8-h3 diagonal with Nd7, white can play its king knight to f2 via h3. Victor has analyses a game in Feb Samisch section. If you want I can post some 2000, 2100 level games in this which will give a better feel because of their inherent errors! Grin
  

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How to combat the King's Indian?
03/07/05 at 10:44:21
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I have played 1.e4 all my life and am now planning to switch to 1.d4 to have some new positions to play.

I was wondering what to play against the KID.  I am not a particularly aggressive palyer, so I don't want some razor sharp line.  I enjoy having a bit more space and cutting down Black's counterplay rather than a theoretical advantage.

Any suggestions would be helpful

Thanks

I will probably be posting a few similiar requests on the other 1.d4 sections
  
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