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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 2 knights (4. Nc3) (Read 13455 times)
MNb
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #21 - 03/31/05 at 06:43:30
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Sure. Typing from memory is dangerous; I have modified the post.
  
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Willempie
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #20 - 03/31/05 at 04:37:15
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Alas 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5 (Ne4 is also playable) 6.Bb5 Bc5! is a strong BLACK gambit. My level is for OTB play around 1800 and I have very good results with it - as Black. It requires a little study though.
I agree that 5.Ng5 must be met with d5! 6.exd5 and now Qe7+! Again Black has chances to take over the initiative.

Are you sure you dont mean 6 Bb5 Ne4 7 0-0 (or Nxd4) Bc5 ? I have no board at the ready, but cant white just take the knight in your move order?
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Peter Kitchen
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #19 - 03/31/05 at 02:18:40
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Going back to Scipio's comments about 4.Ng5, i'm afraid black can opt out of the Fried Liver very easily. I've had my fingers burnt by the Fried Liver and I won't be going back!

After 4...d5 5.exd5 black leaves the pawn on d5 and i like 5...Na5 here. There are other options though. From the few times i have faced it it apears that as long as black knows what he is doing white shouldn't get too much play.

I think its fair to say the Two Knights is often about catching the opponent in lines he doesn't know. Willempie is right – if i were to face 4...exd4 5.e5 I wouldn't be particularly confident as i have no practical experience of this system. I do like the sound of MNb's gambit line though  Smiley
  
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MNb
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #18 - 03/29/05 at 08:04:11
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Alas 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 d5 (Ne4 is also playable) 6.Bb5 o-o 7.Nxd4 Bc5! is a strong BLACK gambit. My level is for OTB play around 1800 and I have very good results with it - as Black. It requires a little study though.
I agree that 5.Ng5 must be met with d5! 6.exd5 and now Qe7+! Again Black has chances to take over the initiative.
« Last Edit: 03/31/05 at 06:44:27 by MNb »  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Willempie
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #17 - 03/29/05 at 03:44:02
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The fact that you say 4.d4 isnt that strong makes me sad, cause i want to play a gambit with white every chance i get. You sure white dosent have a trick up his sleeve in these lines?

Depends on what level you play. I think up to 1900-2000 you will blow a lot of black players out of the water with either 4 d4 5 0-0 or with 4 d4 5 e5. Especially with the latter black often doesnt know his theory or gets in a moveorder problem (many transpositions), because it is not a variation they often meet. I used to play both and I think I only lost 2 serious games with it (though that was around 1700 level).

Peter's suggestion with Ng5 is also quite tricky but I would reserve it for blitz, but you could check some older games by for example Estrin.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Peter Kitchen
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #16 - 03/29/05 at 03:29:44
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White doesn't have to play 5.0-0. Emms puts forward 5.Ng5 and 5.e5 (the Modern Attack). 

Against 5.Ng5 Emms prefers 5...d5 to 5...Ne5. The opening of the e-file seems to help black more than white. 

After 5.e5 black can play either 5...Ne4 or 5...d5.

While Emms' book is written from black's perspective, it can still be very useful for people looking to play such lines as white. It was published in 2000 so I'm not sure how theory has changed, but its helped me no end.
  
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Bruce
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #15 - 03/28/05 at 13:48:19
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The fact that you say 4.d4 isnt that strong makes me sad, cause i want to play a gambit with white every chance i get. You sure white dosent have a trick up his sleeve in these lines?
  
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Peter Kitchen
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #14 - 03/24/05 at 04:51:27
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Very interesting. Another point i was going to make to MnB was that if  black can make 3 mistakes in the first 20 moves and still draw comfortably then it doesn't say much for white's strategy. 

I'm not sure 13.Bg5 is advantageous to white, the only edge i can see is pressure on the d4 pawn. Then again i don't mind endings like the one that should arise.
  
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M.Nieuweboer
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #13 - 03/23/05 at 20:45:22
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I have looked in Heyken/Fette's 1989 book Theorie der Schach-Eröffnungen Teil XI/1. They think 13.Bg5 is advantegeous to White and indeed give 13.Qe2 Qh5!
In stead of 12...Bd6 they recommend 12...Qf5 (played by Bogoljubow in a corr game against Norvegian players) 13.Qe2 h6 14.Re4 g5 15.Bd2 Bg7 16.Re1 Bf6 and now 17.h4 g4 18.Ng5 is about equal, Engelbert-Kreutzkamp,1993.
  
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Scipio
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #12 - 03/23/05 at 16:18:42
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well, if you think 4.d3 is better, i know what to play  Grin
  
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Peter Kitchen
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #11 - 03/23/05 at 12:32:11
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Agreed, it was just the only game i had available. I also agree that when you face the system a few times you learn how to deal with it. 

If white plays Bg5 on move 13 in that system you reach a very complex ending with equal chances. The game i showed shows just how badly I am playing at the moment  Sad

Going back to the topic of the thread, I have only faced 4.c3 once competitively in ten years of chess. I don't understand why white would want to allow the fork trick when he has moves like 4.d3 that keep black restrained.
  
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MNb
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #10 - 03/23/05 at 10:16:19
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Not really an advertisement for White's system, that the game is drawn after one weak move from White and three from Black.
When I met 4.d4 it scared me to hell. After a few games my results as Black improved a lot.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Peter Kitchen
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #9 - 03/23/05 at 10:00:59
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As black i least like facing 4.d3 in this line. White gives nothing away, and as was said in an earlier post winning is very difficult.

Black gets more play against 4.Ng5 or 4.d4. In a match earlier this week i faced 4.d4 and quickly got a better position, only to lose my nerve and miss a realtively simple tactic which would have won the game for me (see below for game)

Emms' book is excellent. I don't fear any lines in the Two Knights, though in truth i would say i need to face it more often to call myself proficient at facing whatever white can play. I've only faced it three times over the past 5 seasons.

East Glam League Div 2
Penarth A v Cardiff Pawns
White: K. Hannah (1706)
Black: P. Kitchen (1749)

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3 Qa5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Neg5 0-0-0 11.Nxe6 fxe6 12.Rxe6 Bd6 13.Qe2

Emms suggests 13.Bg5

13...h6 (13...Qh5 threatening d3 and Nd4 would have been much better) 14.Bd2 Qh5 15.Re1 Rhf8 (15...d3 much better) 16.Qe4 Qf5? 17.Qxf5 Rxf5 18.Re8 Rb5 19.Rxd8ch Drawn
  
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M.Nieuweboer
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #8 - 03/22/05 at 20:06:21
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For those, who think 4.d3 a dull move:

Bologan,V (2535) - Westerinen,H (2420) [C54]
Gausdal Int (3), 1991
1.e4 e5 2.Pf3 Pc6 3.Lc4 Pf6 4.d3 Lc5 5.c3 a6 6.Lb3 d6 7.Pbd2 0–0 8.h3 La7 9.Pf1 Pe7 10.Pg3 Pg6 11.0–0 h6 12.d4 exd4 13.cxd4 d5 14.e5 Pe4 15.Lc2 Ph4 16.Pxe4 dxe4 17.Lxe4 Pxf3+ 18.Dxf3 Dxd4 19.Lf4 c6 20.Tad1 Db4 21.Lxh6 gxh6 22.Dg3+ Kh8 23.Df4 Kg7 24.Td3 Te8 25.Tg3+ Kf8 26.Dxh6+ Ke7 27.Dh4+ Kf8 28.a3 Dd4 29.Dh6+ Ke7 30.Df6+ Kd7 31.Td3 Dxd3 32.Lxd3 1–0

Kostenjuk,A (2457) - Mamedjarov,S (2585) [C54]
Lausanne YM-4 (1.2), 18.09.2003
1.e4 e5 2.Lc4 Pf6 3.d3 Pc6 4.Pf3 Lc5 5.c3 a6 6.0–0 d6 7.Lb3 0–0 8.Te1 La7 9.Pbd2 Pg4 10.Te2 Kh8 11.h3 Ph6 12.Pf1 f5 13.d4 Df6 14.Lg5 Dg6 15.exf5 Lxf5 16.Dd2 Pf7 17.Pg3 exd4 18.Lf4 d3 19.Tee1 Ld7 20.Ld5 Pfe5 21.Le3 Pxf3+ 22.Lxf3 Txf3 23.gxf3 Pe5 24.Dd1 d2 25.Te2 Pxf3+ 26.Kg2 Tf8 27.Lxd2 Lc6 28.Le3 De6 29.Dc1 Pd4+ 0–1

Bitman,A (2220) - Rovensky,M (2285) [C55]
Moscow-ch (2), 1996
1.e4 e5 2.Pf3 Pc6 3.Lc4 Pf6 4.d3 Le7 5.0–0 0–0 6.Te1 d6 7.a4 h6 8.c3 Pa5 9.La2 c5 10.b4 Pc6 11.b5 Pb8 12.Pbd2 Dc7 13.d4 Te8 14.dxe5 dxe5 15.Pc4 Lf8 16.a5 b6 17.a6 Ld7 18.Pfxe5 Lxb5 19.Pxf7 Txe4 20.Txe4 Pxe4 21.Pfd6 Dd8 22.Dd5+ Kh7 23.Dxe4+ g6 24.Lb1 Df6 25.Pxb5 1–0

Martin Rueda,D - Pita Romero Rodriguez,R [C55]
ESP-ch U16 Oropesa del Mar (4.5), 03.07.2001
1.e4 e5 2.Pf3 Pc6 3.Lc4 Pf6 4.d3 h6 5.c3 g6 6.Pbd2 Lg7 7.Pf1 d6 8.Pe3 0–0 9.b4 De7 10.0–0 Pd8 11.a4 Pe6 12.b5 Pf4 13.a5 Ph7 14.Pd5 Pxd5 15.Lxd5 Tb8 16.Le3 b6 17.Dd2 Lg4 18.axb6 axb6 19.Pe1 g5 20.Pc2 Le6 21.Pb4 Lxd5 22.Pxd5 Dd7 23.Ta7 Pf6 24.Txc7 Dxb5 25.Pe7+ Kh8 26.Pf5 Pe8 27.Ta7 d5 28.Lxg5 hxg5 29.Dxg5 Lf6 30.Dh5+ Kg8 31.Ph6+ Kg7 32.Pxf7 1–0

A dull move is 4.d4, for instance exd4 5.o-o Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3 Qh5 (with Qa5 Black can strive for more) 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 Bb4 11.Nxd4 which does not inspire me. Those who are afraid of 4.d4 should by Emms' book. 5.e5 gives Black reasonable chances - if he is willing to play a gambit with d5 (Ne4 is not bad either) 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nxd4 Bc5! and with some precise play White can maintain equality.
4.Ng5 is for masochists, as it gives the opponent the pleasant choice of some of the best gambits known in theory.
Conclusion: 4.d3 is White's best chance for an attack.
  
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Willempie
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Re: 2 knights (4. Nc3)
Reply #7 - 03/22/05 at 17:18:29
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From what I noticed is that most black players really dislike 4 d4. Iso an attacking setup for black they are faced with either a tricky gambit (which imo give nothing more than an equal game though) or with much less space if white follows up with 5 e5.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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